AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   General (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1)
-   -   Process or Result (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21804)

Andrew Macdonald 10-01-2012 12:58 AM

Process or Result
 
this is a big question in the education feild where i live as well, but that is another story

So anyway O-sensei was a great martial artist (for now we'll just let that stand if you disagree please start another thread)

He devoted himself to the study of many martial arts, and trained like extremely hard. to get to his level of skill. then he created Aikido that we study, however, i feel that sometimes we focus too much on how he was like at the end of his life or the result of all his training without taking into account the process that got him there.

What can we achieve without that process

aiki-jujutsuka 10-01-2012 06:40 AM

Re: Process or Result
 
well as a practitioner of Aiki-Jujutsu I feel that I am walking a similar path to O'Sensei. I know O'Sensei practised and taught Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu but nevertheless Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu traces its lineage back to Daito-Ryu the same as Aikido. The very fact that I am learning an art that still bears much similarity to Daito-Ryu AJJ leads me to hope that if ever I chose to take up Aikido seriously later in life then I will have undertaken a similar journey to O-Sensei himself; a journey that will hopefully have been a process of personal growth, martial effectiveness and in a more modest way transcendence, martially speaking, like O'Sensei.

As I am still a kyu grade, I feel my journey in AJJ is not yet complete; I do hope to one day become an experienced Yudansha (ideally Sandan or Yondan) before I feel I would have the same level of training and experience O'Sensei had before developing Aikido. Perhaps my path will be different, perhaps my path is to cross-train only in Aikido (I do like the idea of teaching in my own Dentokan dojo). But I am open to the possibility that my own journey will mirror that of O-Sensei more fully.

lbb 10-01-2012 09:12 AM

Re: Process or Result
 
How much can you know about another person's process? And even if you do, what bearing does it have on your own?

Some people are reflective, insightful and articulate. We see that often in the columns on aikiweb. When someone reflects on their own process/experience, derives insight from it, and has both the ability and motivation to communicate that process, then we can know something about it. Otherwise, I think we're groping in the dark. We can know the names and dates and places, but the process remains a mystery.

Budd 10-01-2012 10:44 AM

Re: Process or Result
 
As usual, I think it depends (stock answer from my consultant days). Some dojo offer you a community, some offer you a path. The best, I find, offer both and are very transparent about it (and what skills will realistically be imparted). Your ability to absorb what they are teaching and willingness to work at it tends to be huge factors as well.

Of course, this gets challenging when dysfunction creeps into any of those areas - as a natural tendency of dysfunction can be to seek to cast blame elsewhere rather than seek to improve what's in the mirror (this can be process, art, dojo, sensei, student, etc. - all levels and to any combination of degrees). In my profession, I'm about data driven results, sans ambiguity and minimal narrative. It's more difficult to apply this to an artistic pursuit, but assuming you are devoting the necessary time, thought and commitment to an activity - hopefully it becomes more apparent that to reach any goal, you need measurable targets along the way.

Hence, yes, it's a process that should be measurable by results. ;)

Mary Eastland 10-01-2012 01:26 PM

Re: Process or Result
 
Can we choose both?

Adam Huss 10-01-2012 08:17 PM

Re: Process or Result
 
Andrew,

If I correctly understand what you said, I totally agree. I feel like too many people want to try and make their aikido 'look like' M. Ueshiba's without grueling through the necessary path to develop what was underneath. To me technique is a tool used to train and develop spirit. So, for my training, having an easy, soft, and weak path of budo...where there is no expansion and elimination of limitations and weakness present...would make my training pointless and without value or quality.

If I'm off base, please disregard.

hughrbeyer 10-02-2012 09:42 AM

Re: Process or Result
 
How can anybody in the modern world really re-create O-Sensei's process? And who would want to?

Go train in every martial art you can find. Get sent off to a foreign war. Fall in with a charismatic religious leader. Go adventuring again. Just about get yourself executed. Go pioneering in the wild north. Find another martial arts guru and go study with him, abandoning your family without even telling them where you are.

O-Sensei's life was his own and few of us could re-create it if we wanted to, and if we could it wouldn't work anyway because living O-Sensei's life because you want to be O-Sensei is very different from living his life because you are O-Sensei.

MM 10-02-2012 10:31 AM

Re: Process or Result
 
Quote:

Andrew Macdonald wrote: (Post 316450)
this is a big question in the education feild where i live as well, but that is another story

So anyway O-sensei was a great martial artist (for now we'll just let that stand if you disagree please start another thread)

He devoted himself to the study of many martial arts, and trained like extremely hard. to get to his level of skill. then he created Aikido that we study, however, i feel that sometimes we focus too much on how he was like at the end of his life or the result of all his training without taking into account the process that got him there.

What can we achieve without that process

The research that has been done does not support your theories. Morihei Ueshiba devoted himself to only one martial art: Daito ryu. Ueshiba merely dabbled in a few others and never actually learned any of them in any significant way.

Also, Ueshiba never created aikido. Literally, the way of aiki. That honor belongs to two other men. The aiki of daito ryu would be from Sokaku Takeda. The reinvented, reimagined aiki of Modern Aikido would be Kisshomaru Ueshiba. Morihei Ueshiba followed the way of aiki as given to him by Sokaku Takeda, merging it with a spiritual ideology of his own design. The name "aikido" was given by a Japanese organization and Ueshiba acknowledged it.

Lastly, the aikido that most people study is not from Morihei Ueshiba. Trace the weapons training in your dojo and it most likely won't lead back to Ueshiba. Trace the tanto training and it won't lead back to Ueshiba. Trace koshinage and it won't lead back to Ueshiba. Many of the ki exerecises won't lead back to Ueshiba. Do you have spear training? Why not? Ueshiba did so. Aiki solo exercise training? Yep, Ueshiba had them. Were you told about contradictory energy? Why not, Ueshiba trained them. Etc, etc, etc. Far too many things different.

If you truly want to know the process, do the research. Then get out and train with people who have already done the research and are training it. Right now, there's quite a few out there and more appearing all the time.

Mark

DH 10-02-2012 11:11 AM

Re: Process or Result
 
Well
Many people...want...to be a part, claim or earnestly desire to share in his process, but if they cannot do the simple foundational things that did, what does that mean about being part of or understanding his "process?"
At what point does someone who: feels like any other person, who cannot explain the things he said...still be able to credibly state they share his process?
Have you considered that many have been seeking a different process entirely and don't even care about his process?

His process -once we got past the myth making and obfuscation of the aikikai was defined.
Further, once we look at the new translations of what he actually said-his thoughts on how to achieve aiki-were laid out as well.

This will help
1. Ask someone to explain them-in simple terms.
2. Ask to feel them-without allowing them to use waza- see if they feel like any other person.

Go find someone who can explain the things he said, and who actually feels different than normal people. You will reduce your search area dramatically.

Simple examples:
What does Ueshiba's definition of releasing the mountain echo mean?
When asked: many stated that when they escorted Ueshiba on to the mats in his old age he felt soft and had sagging old man muscles. Yet, when stepping onto the mat, it was like he inflated and he was hard as iron.
Can they do that?
Can they explain it?

If we allow ourselves to examine these things in a neutral fashion-truly seeking his process-certain conclusions are unavoidable, and a new hope for Aikido once again taking it's place as his art and his process, will have it emerge as it once was in his hands....one of the most powerful arts the world has known.
I believe it is within our grasp to do so, but first you have to get people to care about and agree on-his process, in it's fullness.
Dan

Cliff Judge 10-02-2012 11:43 AM

Re: Process or Result
 
The process is important. But you cannot really know what it was, or live it for yourself.

Your best bet is to review the information that has been put out there on how Ueshiba lived and how he trained. A bit is known about each. Seek out people who have put a lot of work into their own training, and use this to enhance your own myth of Osensei and develop your own process.

If the man believed his whole life and training history was a template worth passing on he would have done so.

Mario Tobias 10-02-2012 12:35 PM

Re: Process or Result
 
Focus on the process, treat the result as a bonus.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:02 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.