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-   -   Can't find yonkyo (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21779)

tim evans 09-22-2012 12:51 PM

Can't find yonkyo
 
Any training tips to help me find it consistently thanks.

ChrisHein 09-22-2012 01:04 PM

Re: Can,t find yonkyo
 
I think it helps to think of yonkyo as a gripping technique first. The main lesson of yonkyo, to me, is the way in which you use your hand and transmit power from your hand to the target (most likely the lower arm. Once you understand this you can do yonkyo anywhere you can grab, and all your yonkyo's will be powerful.

When looking at the classic yonkyo. It will be easiest to work on the lowest part of the arm possible, and try to find an uke who doesn't have a large forearm in the beginning. When looking for the "yonkyo spot" don't mover around quickly, moving your hand every time you're not on the mark. Instead slowly move around the lower arm until you see a reaction from uke, then work in that area. here's a video that might help:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/oldasc/content/?p=218

Basia Halliop 09-22-2012 01:24 PM

Re: Can,t find yonkyo
 
As best as I can understand is that the pain is an optional bonus, but the leverage is the key and they should go down regardless of whether it hurts or not. There are always a few freaks* who never seem to feel pain no matter who does yonkyo on them. But they still get their faces driven into the mat if someone knows how to do it well.

* I mean 'freak' in the nicest, friendliest, least insulting way possible :).

Krystal Locke 09-22-2012 02:44 PM

Re: Can,t find yonkyo
 
Yonkyo is a control technique first. Look to lock and control uke's elbow, shoulder, and ultimately, center with yonkyo before you look for the spot that hurts.

That said, the kokyu that makes a good sword cut and makes for good kokyu nage also is useful for stimulating that yonkyo spot. Dont just try to push on that spot, try to lift (a standing) uke by that point and let their body weight put the pain on them. Make the spot a fulcrum.

Andrew S 09-22-2012 04:26 PM

Re: Can,t find yonkyo
 
I agree that too many people see yonkyo primarily as a "pain" method, and that some uke feel it more than others.
As a pin, it doesn't have to hurt. It does, however, have to ensure that uke cannot rise up again and take control.

Bokuto suburi, especially tsuki, is good for developing yonkyo.

Janet Rosen 09-22-2012 05:10 PM

Re: Can,t find yonkyo
 
A sequential lock up the arm to shoulder and then to center, with the feel of a sword, is also how I was taught and prefer to use it.

robin_jet_alt 09-22-2012 06:07 PM

Re: Can,t find yonkyo
 
Quote:

Basia Halliop wrote: (Post 316145)
As best as I can understand is that the pain is an optional bonus, but the leverage is the key and they should go down regardless of whether it hurts or not. There are always a few freaks* who never seem to feel pain no matter who does yonkyo on them. But they still get their faces driven into the mat if someone knows how to do it well.

* I mean 'freak' in the nicest, friendliest, least insulting way possible :).

I agree. To put yonkyo on, you get off the line and then use the forearm to put uke's elbow through their face. The hyperextension of the shoulder that this creates is what puts them on the ground.

In order to get the pain as well, grip uke's wrist with your thumb and your little finger only. The little finger should be in the crook of the wrist. Extend your index finger, and don't squeeze. Then just do the movement described above. The technique will naturally happen.

Having said all that, yonkyo is by far my least favorite technique. I find the pain response to be unreliable, and even though the rest of it is a valid technique, given the choice, I would do either ikkyo or sankyo instead.

Mary Eastland 09-22-2012 07:04 PM

Re: Can,t find yonkyo
 
I like yonkyo...it is challenging.

For me it reminds me the most literally of sword work. Having the hands move congruently with the hips helps. Some people can't ever feel the pain of the pressure point, yet the technique can become dependable though repeated practice.

When you have your hands on uke don't use your fingertips... use your whole hands instead. I focus on taking balance rather than looking for pain. Patience.. definilty with yourself and each uke...because they all different.
Just some random thoughts...have fun

LinTal 09-23-2012 08:32 PM

Re: Can,t find yonkyo
 
Having the mental image of casting my uke's arm like a fishing line helps me often.

phitruong 09-25-2012 06:30 AM

Re: Can,t find yonkyo
 
ikkyo first then flow into yonkyo or you could say it's short grip ikkyo with a hip rotation and weight drop. personally, i have problem with the elbow in the face approach where you are in range of the other fist or a low side kick or tall uke who would just laugh at you while you are on your tippy toes. or the find the pain point approach where you don't have the other person balance and while you try to find the point, they pasted you.

sankyo is spiral in and up. yonkyo is spiral down and out. sort of a opposite of each other.

of course the higher level of yonkyo is yoinkyo. :)

Adam Huss 09-25-2012 09:48 PM

Re: Can,t find yonkyo
 
On the ride home from the dojo tonight, my buddy said his dog helped him find the kyusho portion of yonkyo. He just started aikido recently. One night we started training yonkyo and he immediately recognized the kyusho application because his dog sometimes clamps his mouth around my friends arm and takes him to the ground in what is basically yonkyo...with the pressure point application. He has a giant sheepdog.

Adam Huss 09-25-2012 09:50 PM

Re: Can,t find yonkyo
 
Anybody else to 'tenkan' version of yonkyo?

JJF 09-26-2012 04:59 AM

Re: Can,t find yonkyo
 
Quote:

Adam Huss wrote: (Post 316280)
On the ride home from the dojo tonight, my buddy said his dog helped him find the kyusho portion of yonkyo. He just started aikido recently. One night we started training yonkyo and he immediately recognized the kyusho application because his dog sometimes clamps his mouth around my friends arm and takes him to the ground in what is basically yonkyo...with the pressure point application. He has a giant sheepdog.

Aikido-g ?

My dog does a really beautiful forward ukemi when it is pretend fighting with it's friend (a golden retriever four houses up the road).

Apart from that I didn't start to do good yonkyo until I stopped focusing on the pressure point and started thinking about just placing my body in the right spot and keeping the balance of uke on top of my hand.

It seems whenever I have truble with a throw or a lock I need to remember to move the tip of the sword instead of making the technique small. It usually helps a lot :)

JJ

lars beyer 09-27-2012 04:09 PM

Re: Can,t find yonkyo
 
Quote:

Adam Huss wrote: (Post 316281)
Anybody else to 'tenkan' version of yonkyo?

Do you mean yonkyo ura waza ? In that case yes.

aiki-jujutsuka 09-28-2012 06:16 AM

Re: Can't find yonkyo
 
We call it Yondan in AJJ and as a kyu grade I don't have much experience, but I am aware of the gakun grips used and I have had one lesson in the kata. I have found that I naturally want to apply yondan techniques in my knife defence. My sensei knows of my tendancy to apply yondan gakuns in knife defence and has given me some advice, which has been very useful to me but I know it will take years of practice to be able to apply them effectively everytime. I am beginning to see the progression in the different katas we learn from Shodan to Nidan and Sandan to Yondan. I am beginning to make the connections in my mind and body of the power of smaller techniques such as yondan for leverage and compliancy. :)

Cliff Judge 09-28-2012 10:04 AM

Re: Can't find yonkyo
 
Quote:

Ewen Ebsworth wrote: (Post 316358)
We call it Yondan in AJJ and as a kyu grade I don't have much experience, but I am aware of the gakun grips used and I have had one lesson in the kata. I have found that I naturally want to apply yondan techniques in my knife defence. My sensei knows of my tendancy to apply yondan gakuns in knife defence and has given me some advice, which has been very useful to me but I know it will take years of practice to be able to apply them effectively everytime. I am beginning to see the progression in the different katas we learn from Shodan to Nidan and Sandan to Yondan. I am beginning to make the connections in my mind and body of the power of smaller techniques such as yondan for leverage and compliancy. :)

What art do you practice again? Just curious if you know where the pressure point is in your technique? The one that I learned as standard Aikido is on the underside of the arm, on a line that comes down from the little finger...somewhere along there. Either at the wrist or further towards the elbow.

aiki-jujutsuka 09-28-2012 11:42 AM

Re: Can't find yonkyo
 
I practice Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu. I am very much a novice when it comes to Yondan but I apply the knuckle of my index finger to the inner part of the forearm somewhere between two or three inches up the forearm. I try to put my body weight into it through my hips rather than using strength in the grip, however I can't get it to work on everyone and sometimes I try to compensate with grip strength niavely. As I said I have much practice to perfect it yet but I do find Yondan inspiring, I love practising it.

Krystal Locke 09-29-2012 09:26 AM

Re: Can't find yonkyo
 
Quote:

Ewen Ebsworth wrote: (Post 316366)
I try to put my body weight into it through my hips rather than using strength in the grip, however I can't get it to work on everyone and sometimes I try to compensate with grip strength niavely.

Try putting their body weight into it.....

Mark Gibbons 09-29-2012 06:58 PM

Re: Can't find yonkyo
 
You could get extra yonkyo practice during morotedori techniques. ;) Some teachers have encouraged that.

Mark

robin_jet_alt 09-29-2012 08:24 PM

Re: Can't find yonkyo
 
Quote:

Mark Gibbons wrote: (Post 316417)
You could get extra yonkyo practice during morotedori techniques. ;) Some teachers have encouraged that.

Mark

Depends on the sensei though. Some people don't like you when you do that. Personally, I find it to be helpful because if someone can put yonkyo on you, you probably aren't doing it right.

Andrew S 09-29-2012 08:36 PM

Re: Can't find yonkyo
 
Does anyone else have a slightly different grip between omote and ura technique? I was taught to press the point near the middle of the wrist for omote, and a point on the thumb-side of the wrist for ura.

Mikemac 09-30-2012 10:35 PM

Re: Can't find yonkyo
 
Funny...This just came up on my current test.....

It seems that the radial nerve they told me to press for Yonkyo isn't on that spot. The radial is actually on the backside of the wrist, not the inner part. What was being pressed was the tendon on the bone. No wonder yonkyo hurts the next day.

My grip uses the knuckle on the thumb to press the radial nerve. Seems to work better for me and Uke feels it for sure.

TheAikidoka 11-28-2012 11:13 AM

Re: Can't find yonkyo
 
Hi all,
Yes I do yonkyo slightly differently, and I do not rely on pain compliance to perform the technique.
Start from Migi hanmi & Uke attacks with Ai hanmi, proceed with ikkyo, when you have stepped in with the left foot taking uke`s balance, now at this point slip your left hand down uke`s arm to your right hand which should be gripping Uke`s wrist firmly.
Now raise uke`s arm as in bokken suburi, but as you raise the arm uke`s elbow should be pointing straight upwards twist your hips towards uke (to the left) and as you cut downwards turn your hips to the right and imagine that uke`s elbow is the tip of a bokken and cut it toward the floor, keep twisitng the hips until uke is down.
In the ura version, as you are about to cut downwards perform tenkan off the left foot and twist your hips outwards away from uke, the cutting motion and the tenkan together will whip uke around you.
None of this is performed witth the thought of making uke compliant through pain. It is the hip turns and cutting motion that makes uke down.

Hope this helps,

Andy B

Tom Verhoeven 11-28-2012 11:41 AM

Re: Can,t find yonkyo
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 316143)
I think it helps to think of yonkyo as a gripping technique first. The main lesson of yonkyo, to me, is the way in which you use your hand and transmit power from your hand to the target (most likely the lower arm. Once you understand this you can do yonkyo anywhere you can grab, and all your yonkyo's will be powerful.

When looking at the classic yonkyo. It will be easiest to work on the lowest part of the arm possible, and try to find an uke who doesn't have a large forearm in the beginning. When looking for the "yonkyo spot" don't mover around quickly, moving your hand every time you're not on the mark. Instead slowly move around the lower arm until you see a reaction from uke, then work in that area. here's a video that might help:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/oldasc/content/?p=218

Nice video - just saw it twice - good overview of yonkyo examples.

And Bach - well, that makes even a painfull technique like dai yonkyo feel nice!

Tom

Tom Verhoeven 11-28-2012 11:45 AM

Re: Can,t find yonkyo
 
Quote:

Adam Huss wrote: (Post 316280)
On the ride home from the dojo tonight, my buddy said his dog helped him find the kyusho portion of yonkyo. He just started aikido recently. One night we started training yonkyo and he immediately recognized the kyusho application because his dog sometimes clamps his mouth around my friends arm and takes him to the ground in what is basically yonkyo...with the pressure point application. He has a giant sheepdog.

My dog does that too. She also has thrown me several times using kote gaeshi - including applying the kyusho point near the little finger!

Tom


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