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nerez3 09-08-2012 09:00 AM

High Ukemi Help?
 
Hello,

I am a 4th kyu and recently my sensei has decided for all of us to focus on our ukemi a bit more. What I seem to have trouble is really throwing myself over high enough for ukemi.

For example, we will stack 6x sparring pads on the ground. I don't know the exact hight but it is about a 4 ft high that I must jump over. I just can't seem to get myself any higher than that. Sometimes I will even hit the pads. My problem is not falling, but actually jumping to that hight.

Is there a specific way to jump over? I have seen a beginner being able to jump about 5 feet in the air without a running start 0_o. My ukemi is OK, I can do back break falls and front break falls soft and hard, but this is really something im struggling with!

Basia Halliop 09-08-2012 12:50 PM

Re: High Ukemi Help?
 
I would ask your sensei or some of the senior students for suggestions if this is an exercise that's done at your dojo. There might be someone who went through the same difficulty when learning it, or they may be able to help you find alternate exercises that build the same skills that this exercise is intended to build.

FWIW, I suspect a lot of people who can take very good falls in real practice with a partner can't jump 4 feet in the air. It seems like a very different skill (falling vs jumping). I might get some clarification from your teacher if they actually consider this jumping to be very important for its own sake or if it's just a way to get some height so you can practice controlling your body in space all the way through a fall, or a way to build core strength, or some other thing. Also I don't know how wide a sparring pad is but it might be you're supposed to drop yourself over it rather than jumping over it.

Again, someone from your dojo who knows the exercise and what it's for and how other people have learned it is a good person to ask. Don't be too shy or intimidated by them :).

robin_jet_alt 09-09-2012 04:41 AM

Re: High Ukemi Help?
 
Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for learning good ukemi from difficult situations. If you watch me train, I'm sure you would say I had very good ukemi. However, I have never attempted to jump over anything higher than a crouching person, and I really don't see the need to. In fact, I have never felt the need to jump when being thrown in aikido at all. My response would be to ask sensei why he thinks it is important to jump over stuff... Then again, that's probably easier for someone of my rank and otherwise pretty good ukemi...

Janet Rosen 09-09-2012 11:38 AM

Re: High Ukemi Help?
 
I have seen this kind of exercise at some dojos and never understood its practical application. Even on big koshinages, uke's role is not to launch himself over nage but to attack with energy and take the throw as nage does the throw.
I know that isn't what you are asking - I guess I'm trying to provide reassurance that difficulty with launching high in the air should not impair development in aikido.
But if this is an ability highly valued by your instructor, my suggestion is to either keep working on developing the skill or get help to figure out if there is something inherent in your body that makes you not very well suited to this particular exercise and politely bow out during it.

miso 09-09-2012 03:54 PM

Re: High Ukemi Help?
 
My initial thought was that practice of this kind of ukemi would be in preparation for a more ....hmmm, thinking about this I'm not sure I have a good word....robust/advanced/free-flowing/physical(?) etc. form of practice.

It can also be about losing the fear of falling (which is also the fear of jumping).

Nikolay if you're having trouble with it it's not something to worry about, many, many people find these high falls/rolls difficult for a while.

Good martial arts are 3-dimensional, aren't they?

odudog 09-09-2012 05:57 PM

Re: High Ukemi Help?
 
The jump is usefull for certain waza or slight differences in how basic waza is being applied. I too have problems jumping high. I have taught myself to get very low and tight when rolling over the years and this jumping is exactly the opposite of what my body now does naturally.

Janet Rosen 09-09-2012 09:42 PM

Re: High Ukemi Help?
 
I understand being able to fall or roll safely if projected quickly or thrown from a high position but I don't understand the need to self-launch to that high position. Can someone who practices this exercise shed light on why?
Jun, if you think this should be spun off as a separate thread to avoid drift, please do so; not sure how.

robin_jet_alt 09-09-2012 10:22 PM

Re: High Ukemi Help?
 
http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showp...5&limit=recent

This is one of the better ukes I know, and he never jumps. I think this sort of fall is sufficient.

Shadowfax 09-10-2012 07:50 AM

Re: High Ukemi Help?
 
There is no way I would every be able to jump into a big ukemi like that. Bad knees. But I have no trouble at all taking the ukemi when the throw warrants it. Nage provides plenty of energy it does not need to come from my own power.

If my teacher asked me to do such a thing I suppose I might try but I know my body's limitations and I won't pass them up nor would my teacher expect me to. No sense in wrecking my body even more than it already is just for some flashy ukemi in the short term and the possibility of not being ale to train in the long term.

MM 09-10-2012 10:42 AM

Re: High Ukemi Help?
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 315695)
I understand being able to fall or roll safely if projected quickly or thrown from a high position but I don't understand the need to self-launch to that high position. Can someone who practices this exercise shed light on why?
Jun, if you think this should be spun off as a separate thread to avoid drift, please do so; not sure how.

Hi Janet,

You asked the question I was going to ask. :D

Mark

chillzATL 09-10-2012 12:26 PM

Re: High Ukemi Help?
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 315695)
I understand being able to fall or roll safely if projected quickly or thrown from a high position but I don't understand the need to self-launch to that high position. Can someone who practices this exercise shed light on why?
Jun, if you think this should be spun off as a separate thread to avoid drift, please do so; not sure how.

I assume you mean jumping over pads like that? When we had pads around, we would do this from time to time. For us it's just falling practice. Having to fall over an object in front of you is a big mental hurdle for some. So you throw some pads up there and let people have at it and see what they're comfortable with. There's no point to building up a stack to the point that you have to launch over it other than knowing that you can take the fall that's waiting on the other side. It's nice to know you can if you need too and sometimes you do need it.

odudog 09-10-2012 08:35 PM

Re: High Ukemi Help?
 
This ukemi is used when a weapon is coming at your legs and you can not get out of the way fast enough, so up and over it is. Also used for koshi guruma.

Janet Rosen 09-10-2012 09:49 PM

Re: High Ukemi Help?
 
Quote:

Mike Braxton wrote: (Post 315732)
This ukemi is used when a weapon is coming at your legs and you can not get out of the way fast enough, so up and over it is. Also used for koshi guruma.

Thank you.

Carsten Möllering 09-11-2012 02:01 AM

Re: High Ukemi Help?
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 315695)
I... I don't understand the need to self-launch to that high position.

In our aikidō (Endo/Tissier) we throw uke in a way which "guides" him to the ground. Even the high breakfalls don't require jumping but just to "move around the point" of the conctact.
Here is an example of shiho nage. Uke just has to become flexible, soft, so he will fall easyly.

But you can throw shiho nage also in a way that you don't guide uke down so he has to jump over the locked joint. And this is also the case with kote gaeshi etc.. So if sou don't jump you will damage your wrist, elbow, shoulder.

Here in Germany the students of Asai sensei (aikikai Germany) throw this way: And if you are not aware of the different way of being thrown ukemi can be dangerous.
The people of iwama ryu that I know also throw this way that you have to jump.

Janet Rosen 09-11-2012 09:06 AM

Re: High Ukemi Help?
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 315735)
But you can throw shiho nage also in a way that you don't guide uke down so he has to jump over the locked joint. .

That is jumping over and around the lock in a tight circle, which in my experience is not the same as freely launching over a big stack of mats. YMMV.

phitruong 09-11-2012 09:34 AM

Re: High Ukemi Help?
 
Quote:

Mike Braxton wrote: (Post 315732)
This ukemi is used when a weapon is coming at your legs and you can not get out of the way fast enough, so up and over it is. Also used for koshi guruma.

if i am going to jump up, i would prefer to have my feet into the other guy/gail at the same time which would give me a different sort of ukemi. no point of jumping up and wasting an opportunity for attack. i can see the sort of ukemi for kata guruma, but then i'd probably doing something along this line as well http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...76806796015866

KEM 09-12-2012 01:49 AM

Re: High Ukemi Help?
 
We have the kids classes do this for fun and it builds confidense. It is purely optional and mostly a gymnastic excercise. The photo of my son shows of how tricky it can be to get in a proper position to roll out. Of more use is jumping over length of bags as it helps extend the body. Us ... older... folks don't go that high as the risk of injury increases with age significantly over 35ish. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=85723b9156

Anthony Loeppert 09-16-2012 05:20 PM

Re: High Ukemi Help?
 
Quote:

Keith McInnis wrote: (Post 315792)
We have the kids classes do this for fun and it builds confidense. It is purely optional and mostly a gymnastic excercise. The photo of my son shows of how tricky it can be to get in a proper position to roll out. Of more use is jumping over length of bags as it helps extend the body. Us ... older... folks don't go that high as the risk of injury increases with age significantly over 35ish. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=85723b9156

Looks like great parkour practice, but I'm not clear on the aikido training. Age seems like a cop out. I would never expect a child to do something I wouldn't comfortably do myself.

I read the comment on someone slashing at the legs, however if I'm jumping over at that height I can guaranty I will be grabbing at the slashers neck and taking it with me. I think s/he should slow down and cushion the fall nicely.

Nafis Zahir 09-17-2012 04:54 PM

Re: High Ukemi Help?
 
I use to do stuff like that in my first dojo. After I left, I had to adjust my ukemi and it took a long time. In most dojos and out on the street, you are going to be thrown either over, down or both! No one is going to throw you high. When you learn high falls, you pay for it sooner or later. Go on youtube and Check out the ukemi lessons of Donovan Waite Shihan. This should help you out.


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