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nikonl 07-10-2002 10:16 AM

Judo Koshi Nage
 
Just a simple question i had in mind. Is judo's koshi nage the same as aikido's koshi nage?

Thanx

paw 07-10-2002 11:29 AM

Someone with more experience should answer this. In the interim, check out:

The Kodokan's List of Throws

Regards,

Paul

Tony Peters 07-10-2002 03:18 PM

in that they are both hip throws
 
Yes but that's about it the Aiki variation is rather gentle compared to the Judo version

PeterR 07-10-2002 06:43 PM

Paul - you are a God.

Last week after 11 times doing Judo the Rokkudan sensei walks up to me and says I will do Shodan end of August.

From the get go I was tossed in with the yudansha for randori with my main partner 26 kg heavier, a little over half my age and very very good. Offensively I am terrible but at least I prided myself on making him work for it. Anyway I was shocked and worse I have to demo several waza I still don't know. That site is gold.

Quote:

Originally posted by paw
Someone with more experience should answer this. In the interim, check out:

The Kodokan's List of Throws


paw 07-11-2002 04:57 AM

Peter,

You are very welcome.

Warmest Regards,

Paul

Ghost Fox 07-11-2002 06:48 AM

IMHO

First, I have very little Judo experience. Mostly taking Ukemi for someone in my aikido dojo who also does judo.

I think the techniques are technically the same. The difference is how you get yourself into position for the throw.

I feel that I tend to fall into a kosinage when it's done from an aikido perspective. I mean, I am lead into the throw and kind of fall over the hip.:confused:

From a judo perspective, I feel that my center is broken (somewhat violently) and then I'm thrown with a lot of power. :confused:

I hope people get what I'm trying to say.

Again just my humble opinon.

Edward 07-11-2002 09:45 AM

Sorry guys, but there is no koshi nage in judo. Many of the judo throws use koshi (hip throws) while others use feet, legs, shoulders...etc.

I didn't do judo for over 7 years now, so my memory is not good, but throws like ippon seoi nage, morote seoi nage, o goshi, uki goshi, harai goshi, hanae goshi...etc. are all hip throws, and they have nothing to do with our koshi nage.

The main difference I can see (which is a big difference by the way) is that aikido's koshi nage is executed at a 90 degree angle betweem nage and uke feet, while in judo, uke and tori feet and hips are usually parallel or almost parallel.

In judo, you can throw an unwilling person using a hip throw (even if he's pulling backwards, while in aikido nage should be using uke's movement otherwise it would be more difficult to execute.

Cheers,
Edward

Leslie Parks 07-11-2002 10:58 AM

Koshinage Question
 
here's my probably worthless comment and my disclaimer..

I have zero experience in judo (I certainly do not count the one demo I watched).

One of our area's senior instructor is "an old judo guy" (not my words). A number of years ago when preparing for nikyu test, he helped me out with koshinage. He said something to the effect of, 'While the dynamic and application is different, the fundamental principle is the same'. The hip/hara/koshi is used as a rotation point around which uke falls, so you must develop stability while being able to move. How you get there, how much "energy" you use, exact execution is simply a matter of which art you are in.

BTW, I LOVE koshinage...it's fun to fly...

lpc

Don_Modesto 07-12-2002 09:37 AM

Quote:

Edward wrote:
1) Sorry guys, but there is no koshi nage in judo....

2)The main difference I can see (which is a big difference by the way) is that aikido's koshi nage is executed at a 90 degree angle betweem nage and uke feet, while in judo, uke and tori feet and hips are usually parallel or almost parallel....

3)In judo, you can throw an unwilling person using a hip throw (even if he's pulling backwards, while in aikido nage should be using uke's movement otherwise it would be more difficult to execute.

1) See the link at "Jigoro Kano--Founder of Judo: Uki goshi" at http://209.15.75.68/judoinfo/video/video4.htm. It sure looks to me as if Mr. Kano is doing a textbook KOSHI.

2) Granted. But, er, see no. 1, above.

3) Kano used to criticize his people for doing judo like oxen. I'd guess he had in mind what you allow as passing for judo. You can force technique in aikido, too.

Edward 07-12-2002 11:15 AM

Quote:

Don_Modesto wrote:

1) See the link at "Jigoro Kano--Founder of Judo: Uki goshi" at http://209.15.75.68/judoinfo/video/video4.htm. It sure looks to me as if Mr. Kano is doing a textbook KOSHI.

Thanks for the interesting link. But I don't see your point. Pr. Kano is doing a standard Uki Goshi, which is executed with Nage and Uke having their feet and hips parallel, and a horizontal twist of Nage's hip in contrast to O Goshi (a frequently confused technique) where the hip movement is rather vertical. In fact O Goshi is closer to Koshi Nage than Uki Goshi, which was Pr. Kano's favorite technique by the way.

I have seen Uki Goshi taught at "some" aikido dojos under Koshi Nage appellation, but it is just an adaptation from Judo, just like Ippon Seoi Nage that some instructors like to use against a Yokomenuchi (we do use a variation of Kokyu Nage which looks very similar to Ippon seoi Nage but does not involve any Koshi).

But I might be wrong :)

Edward 07-12-2002 11:34 AM

Probably the closest thing in Judo to Koshi Nage is Sode Tsuri Komi Goshi. You can see the drawings at the same website mentioned by Don:

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/sodetkg.gif

When executed on both sleeves, it could look like one version of Ryotetori Koshi Nage.

Anyhow, that's not such an important issue ;)

Don_Modesto 07-13-2002 11:42 AM

Quote:

Edward wrote:
Thanks for the interesting link. But I don't see your point. Pr. Kano is doing a standard Uki Goshi

In the clip, Kano does two techniques. Are you refering to the second one (which I meant, but didn't specify)?

It sounds like you have a more thorough grounding in judo than I, so I won't argue, but it sure does look like KOSHI to me.

Thanks.

wildaikido 07-18-2002 07:37 AM

In Yoseikan Aikido the Aikikai's standard Koshi Nage is called Koshi Gaeshi (Hip Overturning) and is different to Judo's Ogoshi as mentioned above. Uke in Koshi Gaeshi is 90 degrees to Nage and he is thrown across both hips where as the standard Ogoshi uke and Nage are parallel and uke is thrown over one hip. But in Aikikai any throw using the hip is called Koshi Nage little distinction is made.

If possible look at this clip

[URL deleted due to copyrighted material]

[URL deleted due to copyrighted material]

The first technique is the Koshi Gaeshi, then Shiho Nage Koshi Gaeshi, then Sode Tsurikomi Goshi, then Seoi Nage (which is still referred to as a Koshi Nage in some Aikido schools) and lastly another standard Koshi Gaeshi.

It is the same clip the first one is quick time and the second is real player.

So I suppose in answer to the original question any one of the 11 (?) judo Koshi waza can be Koshi Nage in Aikido.

akiy 07-18-2002 07:54 AM

I have deleted the two URL in the previous posting as they contained copyrighted material (video clips from tapes sold by Yoshimitsu Yamada sensei) that should not have been on the Internet.

Please be careful in posting video clips and such that are not in the public domain. Thank you.

-- Jun

wildaikido 07-18-2002 08:05 AM

Sorry Jun I had no Idea, I thought the footage had been filmed for use from the web site they where on.

Any way the point of the video clip was to show that in an aikido demonstration of different Koshi Nages two out of the five could easily be recognised by judoka as techniques they do. So any "judo" technique slightly modified can be used by aikidoka.

Charlie Lewis 10-27-2008 09:59 AM

Re: Judo Koshi Nage
 
There are various methods of executing koshi (goshi) nage. It all depends on the attack situation. The fundamental movement of this throw requires nage to turn in front of uke while tightly grasping and pulling uke to his/her hip. At the same time securing uke's lower and upper arm and projecting uke forward over the hip. Uke will land on his/her side (as in sutemi)/ This throw is derived from aiki jujitsu and jujitsu, so there are a number of references available to more clearly demonstrate these techniques. I would caution you to not attempt this or any other technique without the proper supervision of a skilled instructor.

sorokod 10-27-2008 02:06 PM

Re: Judo Koshi Nage
 
Much has been posted here on the subject. The founder used to do it like this: http://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=koshiuz9.jpg.

See also here http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...=14306Driscoll and here http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15242.
Even more here: http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...ll&as_occt=any

Pat Togher 11-05-2008 10:59 AM

Re: Judo Koshi Nage
 
My judo instructor (he's a godan) calls the Aiki koshinage a "Korean Ippon Sionage". He says this was a commonly taught variation when he taught judo in California, and he has taught it up here in the Seattle area as a variation of a one handed grip Ippon Sionage also.

Forgot to add:
My instructor said that sees this commonly used by Koreans in competition, hence the name.

Pat

Walter Martindale 11-21-2008 01:45 PM

Re: Judo Koshi Nage
 
Quote:

Edward Karaa wrote: (Post 23537)
Sorry guys, but there is no koshi nage in judo. Many of the judo throws use koshi (hip throws) while others use feet, legs, shoulders...etc.

I didn't do judo for over 7 years now, so my memory is not good, but throws like ippon seoi nage, morote seoi nage, o goshi, uki goshi, harai goshi, hanae goshi...etc. are all hip throws, and they have nothing to do with our koshi nage.

The main difference I can see (which is a big difference by the way) is that aikido's koshi nage is executed at a 90 degree angle betweem nage and uke feet, while in judo, uke and tori feet and hips are usually parallel or almost parallel.

In judo, you can throw an unwilling person using a hip throw (even if he's pulling backwards, while in aikido nage should be using uke's movement otherwise it would be more difficult to execute.

Cheers,
Edward

Well... to be pedantic, koshi nage merely means hip throw, so, there are several koshi nage "in" judo. They're not CALLED "koshi nage", but are named according to how they're executed. O Goshi is sort of big hip throw, hane goshi was translated as spring hip when I practiced judo many years ago. Tsuri-komi-goshi - I forget, but it's a bit like ryote-dori-koshinage. Uchimata - inner spring hip, or something like that.
The "seoi nage" throws (ippon seoi and morote seoi) were classed as "hand" throws or "shoulder" throws...

The training in judo does, as Edward remarks, have the hips parallel with the feet generally inside the line of uke's feet. One of the differences between the "finish" of judo throws and that of aikido throws is due to the points system in judo - if you release uke to fall on his or her own in judo, they will do whatever they can to avoid landing on their back and giving up ippon. So - training (well, my training) for judo was to slam uke to the mat as if we were trying to put them through the floor, and to stay with them to make sure they didn't twist out at the last moment...

Aikido seems to project uke towards the floor and leave him/her to sort out a safe landing - with the option of having a finishing "crunch" to help the person decide to stay on the ground instead of getting up to continue a "situation"...
Cheers,
W


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