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Gorgeous George 08-15-2012 10:15 AM

Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Fuel for your fire, guys:

'Karate experts are able to generate extremely powerful forces with their punches, but how they do this is not fully understood. Previous studies have found that the force generated in a karate punch is not determined by muscular strength, suggesting that factors related to the control of muscle movement by the brain might be important.'

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0815102852.htm

Keith Larman 08-15-2012 11:30 AM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Quote:

Graham Jenkins wrote: (Post 314159)
Fuel for your fire, guys:

'Karate experts are able to generate extremely powerful forces with their punches, but how they do this is not fully understood. Previous studies have found that the force generated in a karate punch is not determined by muscular strength, suggesting that factors related to the control of muscle movement by the brain might be important.'

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0815102852.htm

Well, the old researcher and joker in me wants to say the study really only shows that those who know how to punch better tend to punch better which is not exactly a revolutionary idea... ;) Doing it "right" makes for a more efficient movement. Hence more "power" when needed as compared to someone who can't get the movement coordinated right. And any good striker punches with more than just their arm... A good strike is actually quite a complex movement.

But yeah, there are some interesting implications here...

chillzATL 08-15-2012 11:52 AM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Quote:

Keith Larman wrote: (Post 314169)
Well, the old researcher and joker in me wants to say the study really only shows that those who know how to punch better tend to punch better which is not exactly a revolutionary idea... ;) Doing it "right" makes for a more efficient movement. Hence more "power" when needed as compared to someone who can't get the movement coordinated right. And any good striker punches with more than just their arm... A good strike is actually quite a complex movement.

But yeah, there are some interesting implications here...

I think their findings would be consistent with any physical activity that someones does long enough. Carpenters don't swing their hammers the same way they did the first day they picked one up. You learn to use the body more efficiently and that includes dropping muscle usage that isn't needed for the task. Similar in some ways to things that are talked about here, but far more simplistic.

Gorgeous George 08-15-2012 12:39 PM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
I posted this because the same principle is widely held to be true in aikido: alignment/full-body use, to make efficient use of power...so I don't think this should be in the 'Non-aikido Martial Traditions' section.

Thanks for the input, guys.

DH 08-15-2012 04:19 PM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Alignment and full body use is TKD and boxing and any other art you can throw a stick at-some better than others. It is all but meaningless to what any of the higher level arts are about.
Yin yang theory would blow up many of those models.
Dan

sakumeikan 08-15-2012 05:31 PM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 314198)
Alignment and full body use is TKD and boxing and any other art you can throw a stick at-some better than others. It is all but meaningless to what any of the higher level arts are about.
Yin yang theory would blow up many of those models.
Dan

Dear Dan ,
Dear Dan, I am quite partial to blowing up models[rubber preferably].Just one gripe I dont like the seams acoss their foreheads.Have a nice day, cheers, Joe

Gorgeous George 08-15-2012 05:37 PM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 314198)
Alignment and full body use is TKD and boxing and any other art you can throw a stick at-some better than others. It is all but meaningless to what any of the higher level arts are about.
Yin yang theory would blow up many of those models.
Dan

It's interesting you should say that, Dan, because I know you're a fan of Gozo Shioda, and he really emphasised those elements in his teaching...

DH 08-15-2012 07:14 PM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Quote:

Graham Jenkins wrote: (Post 314204)
It's interesting you should say that, Dan, because I know you're a fan of Gozo Shioda, and he really emphasised those elements in his teaching...

It doesn't matter that he said it. Alignment and whole body use is claimed in everything. Do you want to equate his work with TKD to boxing?
Of course not. Things are much deeper and have more meaning than that. I have never read anything really meaningful from Shioda or any other Japanese guy about what they do. Everything I have seen so far from a Japanese teacher is all but useless. I will leave it up to people to ask just why that is.
Dan

Walker 08-16-2012 12:59 AM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Geez, just move the immovable body to an unassailable position, etc, etc, etc...

:D

Mary Eastland 08-16-2012 05:53 AM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 314221)
It doesn't matter that he said it. Alignment and whole body use is claimed in everything. Do you want to equate his work with TKD to boxing?
Of course not. Things are much deeper and have more meaning than that. I have never read anything really meaningful from Shioda or any other Japanese guy about what they do. Everything I have seen so far from a Japanese teacher is all but useless. I will leave it up to people to ask just why that is.
Dan

So, Dan, I am asking why. Useless for what? You say
everything every Japanese teacher is teaching is all but useless? That is quite a statement.

How many Japanese teachers have you met with an open heart? Have you gone to seminars looking to learn or to find weakness? Have you not seen one thing in Aikido that is good? What is your criteria for judgment? Do they have to be able to beat you up? I don't understand how you know you are better than everyone?

What do students learn from you that they cannot get from someone else? Do your students reflect this quailty that you possess?...can they pass it along?

Demetrio Cereijo 08-16-2012 06:04 AM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Full text: http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/con...hs219.full.pdf

Now we need a control group of internalists.

lbb 08-16-2012 07:21 AM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 314255)
So, Dan, I am asking why. Useless for what? You say
everything every Japanese teacher is teaching is all but useless? That is quite a statement.

That's not what he said, or really even close to it. What he said was, "I have never read anything really meaningful from Shioda or any other Japanese guy about what they do. Everything I have seen so far from a Japanese teacher is all but useless." [emphasis mine] That is, he was a)speaking from his own experience and b)speaking of writings, not of teaching. I hope you see the difference.

Mary Eastland 08-16-2012 08:23 AM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
That is open to interpetation...I will wait to see what Dan says. If you wrote it, it would say that but Dan may mean what he has seen not just read.

MM 08-16-2012 08:24 AM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 314255)
So, Dan, I am asking why. Useless for what? You say
everything every Japanese teacher is teaching is all but useless? That is quite a statement.

How many Japanese teachers have you met with an open heart? Have you gone to seminars looking to learn or to find weakness? Have you not seen one thing in Aikido that is good? What is your criteria for judgment? Do they have to be able to beat you up? I don't understand how you know you are better than everyone?

What do students learn from you that they cannot get from someone else? Do your students reflect this quailty that you possess?...can they pass it along?

Since you asked about the students ... well, I guess that would include me. Please take my comments with an open mind. I say that because sometimes the truth is very hard to listen to when it invalidates beliefs. So, I just ask that you keep an open mind, look at things from my POV, and if you have questions, please ask.

Q: What do students learn from you that they cannot get from someone else?
A: Morihei Ueshiba's aiki. His aiki that made him stand out from everyone else. His aiki that allowed him to be tested by wrestlers, boxers, karateka, judoka, kendoka, and handle them effortlessly (generally and for the most part). This is not to be confused with Modern Aikido's definition of "aiki" of blending and harmony. It is this aiki that cannot be learned by 99% of aikido shihan (again, generally and for the most part).

Q: Do your students reflect this quailty that you possess?
A: Yes. I have personally trained with people who have 5, 10, 15 years of study and can easily see the progression levels. Those of us with 5 years include people from backgrounds in aikido, TKD, karate, and nothing at all. We all progress if we do the training. On any day ending in "day", I would jump at the chance to train with Andy (15+ years training) because he can teach aiki, he is aiki, and is the closest to Dan's level. Personally, with 0-1 years of training, I taught two other people who had never trained with anyone and was able to get them started. So, these IP/aiki skills are teachable, trainable, and *everyone* (no matter if you have 60 years martial training or 0 years) progresses as long as you put the time in.

Q: can they pass it along?
A: Yes. See above. I personally have done it with very little experience. LOL. I came back, psyched, telling two of my students, this is what I want to work on. I can't do any of it, but I have the exercises. We worked on them. We worked on them for a few years and got progressively better. Nothing to write home about in a couple years, but a very definite increase in skills. And this from me, someone who couldn't even do anything. :D

Now, let me add my personal experiences for some of your other questions.

Q: Have you gone to seminars looking to learn or to find weakness?
A: I haven't gone to find weakness, but to see whether or not I could find aiki. As Mark Freeman wrote in his blog about Dan, "He may be the closest you ever get to Ueshiba's aiki." I have found that to be true and have yet to experience anything to disprove it. The only person I have found who is close is Andy. I have yet to find anyone who has the full complement of skills that Dan teaches. Some have bits and pieces, which is nothing to disparage. In fact, I've found at least two that I would very much recommend for their ability/skill, ability to teach, personality, and character. And one that has ability/skill, but has a hard time teaching those ability/skills. In the aikido world, I would train with any of those three in heartbeat. However, none of those three are even close to Dan/Andy's level.

Q: Have you not seen one thing in Aikido that is good?
A: We have always stated that there are good things in Modern Aikido. There is value there. It lacks Ueshiba's aiki and with it, Modern Aikido would be much better. As Ueshiba stated about religion, aiki makes it better. Ueshiba's aiki does not detract from Modern Aikido but rather fulfills it. Makes it a preeminant art as Morihei Ueshiba envisioned it and as Kisshomaru changed it (again, not good or bad, just changed).

Now, for the final question of my post:
Q: I don't understand how you know you are better than everyone?
A: Tested. I have personally seen quite a lot of aikido 4th, 5th, 6th dans testing Dan's ability/skill. I have personally seen quite a few other martial artists (fighters, karateka, TKD, judo, etc) who have done the same. I have heard from other people of many doing this. Not one... not one, let me repeat that, not one has ever understood what Dan was doing, how they were being easily controlled, how they couldn't capture center, how they couldn't get anything to work, etc. Replace Dan with Andy. While Andy doesn't have the same exposure to thousands of people, it is the exact same thing. And that speaks volumes not for a person, but for the skill -- *aiki*. Teachable, trainable, to everyone who puts in the work. This isn't about Dan at all, yet because he is the one who did the work (shugyo) and put himself out there (for the benefit of all of us, I might add), he is the one taking the personal heat. You could replace him with Andy and it wouldn't matter. In 10 years, you can and will replace him with a number of people doing the work.

Morihei Ueshiba's aiki. Within our grasp. By anyone. For everyone. Teachable. Trainable. The very essence/secret that made martial artists of all kinds stand out from everyone else. But, with Ueshiba, the spiritual ideal made whole and attainable in a lifetime. Never a 20 year technique.

All IMO,
Mark

Mary Eastland 08-16-2012 08:48 AM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Hi Mark:

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It is your truth and I appreciate that even if I see things differently.

It seems to me that a certain group is redefining Aikido to meet what they are teaching. Which is fine but invoking authority about Morihei Ueshiba is a little overkill to me.

The testing you are talking about is probably skewed because of the restraints that Aikido puts on such things.

Leading the mind is good but it does not make anybody superman. If someone comes to our dojo or we go to see someone we are not going to try to prove a point or show how strong we are. We are going to either share what we are doing or fully be open to what is being taught. That does not provide an atmosphere for free expression of strength or ability. That is why those claims seem suspect to me.

Demetrio Cereijo 08-16-2012 09:07 AM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 314275)
It seems to me that a certain group is redefining Aikido to meet what they are teaching.

Every group does that.

ChrisMoses 08-16-2012 12:58 PM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
To be fair, I have never heard Dan say, "OK, I'm gonna learn you some AikiDO!"

I have heard him say, "My AikiDO is crap, I'm just trying to give you guys an example," as he does something that looks and feels like some mighty fine Aikido...

Again, I'm not Dan so I'm not going to put words in his mouth, but PERSONALLY, when you find people who can DO the stuff that many of the Aikido shihan/greats TALK about feeling from OSensei, I find that people start to really pay attention. When I felt Neil, Don, Toby, Ark, Dan, I knew I was feeling something else that I wasn't getting from Aikido teachers, even though I read about it in Aikido books and in stories about the founder. That got my attention.

Rob Watson 08-16-2012 01:47 PM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Quote:

Graham Jenkins wrote: (Post 314159)
how they do this is not fully understood

Bunch of science goobs using gadgets look at stuff 'they' don't understand all the time. Clearly the karate guys understand ... just not in the language/semantic paradigms the 'science' guys are using.

Gary David 08-16-2012 03:07 PM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 314275)

It seems to me that a certain group is redefining Aikido to meet what they are teaching. Which is fine but invoking authority about Morihei Ueshiba is a little overkill to me.

You know it seems to me Aikido was redefined back in the late 70's What I saw when I started in 1974 looked a lot like what I felt at the time. Most of the players were hard at it and the practice was rough and tumble. Looking back from there into the 50's & 60's at movies from that time it was rough and tumble. Change came after the separation between Tohei and the. Akikai. You don't see the change to a new age peace art by many because you are in the middle of it and have always been.

Quote:

The testing you are talking about is probably skewed because of the restraints that Aikido puts on such things
.

The restraints are embedded in a misunderstanding of what the test were for along with the structure and methods to be used. These days, thanks to Dan and others, I can review what was being presented and now start to fill in the frame, add substance to the structure of the test/drills and see how they can help when filled in. Much of what Dan and other are presenting could be brought out of Aikido's drills if looked at in light of what is being presented by Dan.

Quote:

Leading the mind is good but it does not make anybody superman. If someone comes to our dojo or we go to see someone we are not going to try to prove a point or show how strong we are. We are going to either share what we are doing or fully be open to what is being taught. That does not provide an atmosphere for free expression of strength or ability. That is why those claims seem suspect to me.
You know these individuals have come to Dan.......something to consider.

If you think you have it right with nothing to add........then stay with it, but it is a big world. I have been around some, touched, taken falls for and been in the presence of any number of teachers you might consider fine examples of the presentation of Aikido and it is clear to me that Dan could handle them with ease. Does this mean anything...........maybe so.........does if really matter........ What matters is improving and I think many are missing out on adding solid substance to their existing art.

Gary

ChrisMoses 08-16-2012 03:22 PM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
@Gary, this is why we need a "Like" button. Well said.

Janet Rosen 08-16-2012 03:44 PM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
This is a wonderful thread to read. Thank you ALL!!!

Chris Li 08-16-2012 05:45 PM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 314275)
It seems to me that a certain group is redefining Aikido to meet what they are teaching. Which is fine but invoking authority about Morihei Ueshiba is a little overkill to me.

As Demetrio said - there's no one in Aikido who doesn't do that. I do think that there are some pretty good reasons why people in that group (which really isn't a group - just some folks with similar interests) may think that there is a strong connection to Ueshiba, but that's another conversation.

Mark said it so well that I don't have much to add - his experience mirrors mine.

Best,

Chris

phitruong 08-16-2012 09:59 PM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Quote:

Graham Jenkins wrote: (Post 314159)
Fuel for your fire, guys:

'Karate experts are able to generate extremely powerful forces with their punches, but how they do this is not fully understood. Previous studies have found that the force generated in a karate punch is not determined by muscular strength, suggesting that factors related to the control of muscle movement by the brain might be important.'

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0815102852.htm

i would disagree on the point that the process isn't fully understood. lots of folks understand it quite well and even have a systematically way to train for it. the old saying "heart leads mind. mind leads chi/qi/ki. chi/qi/ki leads physical movement." taking out the chi/qi/ki portion, you would have mind leads physical movement. athletes, the good ones, are very fine tuned their mind to their body. i had an internal practitioner did a zero-inch palm strike on me (actually 3 times in a row), and launched me some distance (i weighted 180 lbs or 90 kg). he shown a bunch of us how to train for it in a systematically way. the process required quite a bit of mind body coordination kind of work with various breathing processes. so i would say the process is well understood in some circle.

hughrbeyer 08-16-2012 10:36 PM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 314255)
[To Dan:] How many Japanese teachers have you met with an open heart? Have you gone to seminars looking to learn or to find weakness?

I thought these questions were worth responding to, and that it might be more powerful for someone other than Dan to respond. So I'm asking to have my head handed to me, but what the hell...

How do you think Dan knows what he knows? Made it up out of his brilliant brain? Not 'arf, as our friends across the pond say.

The story about how my corner of the Aikido world was introduced to Dan is that an aikidoka met him at a Tai Chi seminar. Dan, so I understand, had formerly been very dismissive of Tai Chi and Chinese arts in general, had heard good things about the teacher of this seminar, and had gone to see.

Who won that encounter? Well, it's not about winning or losing is it? On the one hand, you've heard how Dan talks about the CMA's now, and how he emphasizes the Chinese roots to these skills. On the other... we're all training with Dan. :D

And that's how the arts grow. Get out there, challenge yourself, challenge others--fairly--and be ready to learn. Love him or hate him, Dan's done the work. Go thou, as a better man than I once said, and do likewise.

hughrbeyer 08-16-2012 11:25 PM

Re: Co-ordination of Mind, and Body
 
Me again. That last sentence is just begging to be misinterpreted...

I don't mean I think you should train with any particular person, or even that you should train for the kind of martial effectiveness that O-Sensei had, if that's not your goal. I just mean that whatever one's path is, if one aims to be good at and knowledgeable about it, one ultimately must to get out of one's own bubble and test what one thinks one knows in the wider world.


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