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-   -   ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21590)

Mary Eastland 08-01-2012 08:27 AM

ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
I realized this morning again why the emphasis in Ki testing should be kept non-competitive. The focus can get lost so easily as uke and nage get competitive. Our goal in Ki training is to develop a strong, centered, calm feeling that is dependable under any circumstance.

Testing for this dependable feeling especially with new students is very gradual. It allows nage to come to know what being centered feels like and then to trust that feeling. Many people know how to be centered. It takes a lot of practice to trust that relaxed, centered feeling during technique. It really does work more effectively yet nage often takes years to be able to use it successfully in technique. Not because they can't feel it but they don't trust it. Nage goes back to muscling and that provides places to rest and resist.

All this gets lost when I compare myself to you. I can train and become as good as I can be.

chillzATL 08-01-2012 09:40 AM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
never heard of ki testing being competitive. You should always be pushed to the point of failure, because that's the only way to get stronger and improve, but that's not really competitive.

lbb 08-01-2012 10:46 AM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
I suppose people can turn anything into a competition. "I have more ki than youuuuu..."

Mary Eastland 08-01-2012 12:40 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
Quote:

Jason Casteel wrote: (Post 313705)
never heard of ki testing being competitive. You should always be pushed to the point of failure, because that's the only way to get stronger and improve, but that's not really competitive.

You should gradually be pushed to the point just before failure.

graham christian 08-01-2012 01:08 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
Actually it should be being pushed or rather tested to the point of success.

Peace.G.

RonRagusa 08-01-2012 01:39 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 313712)
Actually it should be being pushed or rather tested to the point of success.

Peace.G.

Success is a continuum; failure is a discrete point at which success breaks down. Failure provides opportunity for growth. Think of the word failure in the same connotation that you would when speaking of testing strength of materials.

Ron

graham christian 08-01-2012 02:18 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
Quote:

Ron Ragusa wrote: (Post 313715)
Success is a continuum; failure is a discrete point at which success breaks down. Failure provides opportunity for growth. Think of the word failure in the same connotation that you would when speaking of testing strength of materials.

Ron

Interesting. I don't see success as something that can break down or indeed as a continuum unless it's a highly spiritual perspective ie: the state of continuous winning.

The key I would say is building and thus you build successes to build confidence.

Failure is only when a desired or intended result isn't achieved.

Therefor success breeds success and confidence and growth.

Failure doesn't lead to growth but does lead to recognition of more to learn and if that is taken responsibility for then leads to success and growth.

Looking at testing materials is actually looking for what they can handle ie: successfully.

That which you validate lives and indeed grows.

Learn and grow from success and learn to review and learn some more from failure.

Peace.G.

jonreading 08-02-2012 12:42 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
I have a few moments while my videos process...

1. Competition in itself is a evolution... Something about Darwinism... The idea is to recognize when you are being successful and how you achieved success. Over time, your successes lead to a change in your action for the better. To address the stigma... Yes, you can become over-focused on "winning".
2. Success is a relative concept; I agree with Ron here. Some success in definition does not contribute to evolving superior behavior.

I think, in general, Mary's comments are aligned with aikido's teaching paradigm, which is to avoid over-focus on behavior which obscures or retards the learning process. However, I think we also need to eventually stress our training environment to include distractions and occlusions so we may practice applying our knowledge.... if we wish to claim our training is "practical".

In the beginning we learn to apply "ki" to a cooperative, willing, and non-resistant partner. As we progress we remove the shackles around our partners to create a more lively interaction; this also increases the risk of failure. I think it is fair to say that some aikido people are more concerned with success than failure and choose not to train to a point of failure. I think it is also fair to say that some aikido people are more concerned with improvement and choose to increase the stress of their training. I do not recall reading a book about any athlete or person of inspiration that said "I wouldn't be here today if I haven't won at everything I did." Michael Jordan once remarked that while we (his fans) remembered every game he won with a buzzer shot, in fact he lost more games with missed shots than he won.

Anthony Loeppert 08-02-2012 03:24 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
Quote:

Jon Reading wrote: (Post 313743)
2. Success is a relative concept; I agree with Ron here. Some success in definition does not contribute to evolving superior behavior.

Perhaps the most obvious example of this simply living. We're all successful at living until we are dead. There is a whole continuum in between.

danielajames 08-03-2012 05:46 AM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
A few thoughts,

1/ A one seminar I went to in the early 2000's Kataoka Sensei of the Ki Society hombu, I think was so dismayed at the competitive Ki testing going on that he had someone test the person doing the Ki test. Where the testing was competitive the person doing the testing usually failed the Ki test. (Of course it presupposes that the 3rd person isn't being competitive, maybe you need a 4th person..but then its getting silly )

2/ At high levels you often hear the koan-esk statement 'Ki test...there is no Ki test' it only recently made a sort of sense, in that if you extend towards the person doing the Ki testing, such that you unbalance them below the threshold of perception...there really is no Ki test because they now have no power they can apply.

chillzATL 08-03-2012 07:14 AM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
So what do you guys do for ki testing? What are your exercises?

DH 08-14-2012 09:52 AM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
It is important to realize that cooperative ki testing within the martial arts has sever limitiations and is all but utter nonsense when it comes to practical use of aiki outside of the "martial arts."
Most teachers and students I have met (well...all really) cannot use ki under high stress; they simply fall apart. I have a very strong belief that under severe pressure the Japanese Shihan (including those who teach ki and internals) would simply be taken apart by those who themselves develop ki in high stress/high pressure environments. And yes I mean the famous ones.
Don't get me wrong. I love the "Martial arts" like everyone else. I just never....ever...confuse kata based training, with fighting. It continues to amaze me that the Japanese teachers want all of this recognition and we offer it to them, eat it with a spoon, and no one sees the forest for the trees.

There is another step, past the "martial arts" that is indeed a higher level of skill and power...attained by very few men. If you haven't fought freestyle with unusual power and markedly unusual skills, then you are just a "martial arts" guy and should be very self aware and circumspect about your limitations. There is quite a bit of B.S. out there in the established arts that we should NOT be supporting. Although it is unwanted, is shunned and shied away from, Challenging teachers and methods is wise.

Isn't it odd that we continue to discuss Ueshiba's skill?
That we applaud that fact that at hombu Tohei could not be thrown?
That Saotome was known for not being able to be thrown?
Shioda and Shirata?
and we......are told to take ukemi or we are dicks?
How did that happen?
When did that happen?
Why can't we walk into a dojo and for those of us who have the skills just be ourselves and when the Japanese big dog can't do anything to us... THAT....is applauded and approved of... as equally good as Tohei, Shirata, Shioda etc?
Time to wake up people!!

This mindset we have all but been brainwashed into believing limits us, limits the teachers, and it limits the arts. It is why typical martial artists get there asses handed to them by people who actually know what they are doing with ki and appropriate levels of ki testing.
Those who advocate this highly cooperative practice as a static dojo model...will forever fail and will forever...FOREVER....literally run away,,,, from those of us who know what we are doing with ki under stress.

I think most people in Budo just want to love their budo for whatever it is, and want nothing to do with real testing.
When it comes to budo nothing is truer than;
Do not look to authority for truth
Look to truth for authority

Dan

Mary Eastland 08-14-2012 12:19 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
Who is talking about fighting?

DH 08-14-2012 12:39 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 314069)
Who is talking about fighting?

People in the martial arts.
If you're not....you're not doing a martial art- it's something else.
Why not wear sweats and call it "Movement studies?"

Why testing at all?
Why budo clothing?
Why joint locks?
Why funny looking attacks?
Why discuss an Uke and a Nage in the first place?
Why worry if they are getting stronger?
Stronger....for.....what?

If it is budo...it has to work.
Work when?
Work against who?

Dan

chillzATL 08-14-2012 12:47 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 314060)
It is important to realize that cooperative ki testing within the martial arts has sever limitiations and is all but utter nonsense when it comes to practical use of aiki outside of the "martial arts."
Most teachers and students I have met (well...all really) cannot use ki under high stress; they simply fall apart. I have a very strong belief that under severe pressure the Japanese Shihan (including those who teach ki and internals) would simply be taken apart by those who themselves develop ki in high stress/high pressure environments. And yes I mean the famous ones.
Don't get me wrong. I love the "Martial arts" like everyone else. I just never....ever...confuse kata based training, with fighting. It continues to amaze me that the Japanese teachers want all of this recognition and we offer it to them, eat it with a spoon, and no one sees the forest for the trees.

There is another step, past the "martial arts" that is indeed a higher level of skill and power...attained by very few men. If you haven't fought freestyle with unusual power and markedly unusual skills, then you are just a "martial arts" guy and should be very self aware and circumspect about your limitations. There is quite a bit of B.S. out there in the established arts that we should NOT be supporting. Although it is unwanted, is shunned and shied away from, Challenging teachers and methods is wise.

Isn't it odd that we continue to discuss Ueshiba's skill?
That we applaud that fact that at hombu Tohei could not be thrown?
That Saotome was known for not being able to be thrown?
Shioda and Shirata?
and we......are told to take ukemi or we are dicks?
How did that happen?
When did that happen?
Why can't we walk into a dojo and for those of us who have the skills just be ourselves and when the Japanese big dog can't do anything to us... THAT....is applauded and approved of... as equally good as Tohei, Shirata, Shioda etc?
Time to wake up people!!

This mindset we have all but been brainwashed into believing limits us, limits the teachers, and it limits the arts. It is why typical martial artists get there asses handed to them by people who actually know what they are doing with ki and appropriate levels of ki testing.
Those who advocate this highly cooperative practice as a static dojo model...will forever fail and will forever...FOREVER....literally run away,,,, from those of us who know what we are doing with ki under stress.

I think most people in Budo just want to love their budo for whatever it is, and want nothing to do with real testing.
When it comes to budo nothing is truer than;
Do not look to authority for truth
Look to truth for authority

Dan

So how do you feel going into aikido dojos and teaching what you teach, knowing that most will likely never test what they do to any "real" degree? Most will continue to stick with the cooperative model , though hopefully less so, and be happy that what they're doing is at least a little more authentic and potentially stronger than what they were doing before?

Was aikido ever about fighting ability?

graham christian 08-14-2012 01:37 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
Well it is budo and it's not about fighting. It's Aikido. Co-operative? It co-operates with the universe. That is the Ki test.

Peace.G.

DH 08-14-2012 01:43 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
Quote:

Jason Casteel wrote: (Post 314076)
So how do you feel going into aikido dojos and teaching what you teach, knowing that most will likely never test what they do to any "real" degree? Most will continue to stick with the cooperative model , though hopefully less so, and be happy that what they're doing is at least a little more authentic and potentially stronger than what they were doing before?

Was aikido ever about fighting ability?

The last first
Aikido was always about fighting ability...thats how you could control without fighting.
If Ueshiba could not fight....none of us would be here...including this site.
What he was trying to demonstrate was to be so good you could control without fighting.

As for what I teach?
It doesn't matter to me if people use it to fight or not, what matters is that
a. they learn the truth about Ueshiba's quotes and his power
b. The learn and feel and see aikido's serious lack of power
c. Learn how to fix themselves.
d. Learn how to fix the art

It doesn't matter if they decide to learn to actually fight and control with it. It is equally important that they learn to have unusual power to the point that those who want to fight or test them are met with a resounding WTF?? And the reputation of Aikido as one of the worlds finest arts starts to get repaired from all the damage over the years.
It's a long view that will take time.
Dan

stan baker 08-14-2012 01:46 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
When talking fighting I donot think dan is talking about
biting and pulling hair.
Even though that would happen to most people
Under real stress.

Stan

Chris Li 08-14-2012 01:49 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 314079)
The last first
Aikido was always about fighting ability...thats how you could control without fighting.
If Ueshiba could not fight....none of us would be here...including this site.
What he was trying to demonstrate was to be so good you could control without fighting.

Reminded me of this quote from Hiroshi Tada:

Quote:

An Aikidoka should be able to consistently cut down an opponent with the first blow. This it the true Budo aspect of Aikido. It is precisely because we are confident that we will always able to do this. This confidence gives us two things, our strength and the ability to choose a less deadly outcome, both of which we should have as a prerequisite to our training.
Best,

Chris

graham christian 08-14-2012 01:52 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
To be so good at fighting that you don't need to? Therein lies the false assumption. Therein lies the lesson to be learned that sadly hasn't by the looks of it.

Peace.G.

DH 08-14-2012 01:54 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
Budo is funny, here is thread about testing and making people stronger....that can't answer its own premise.
Why Budo clothing?
Why weapons?
Why joint locks?
Why attacks?
Why Uke /Nage?
Why use the words make people stronger?

Here I'll quote others..

Everyone talks
you shugyo
years go by
people still talking
then you get up to demonstrate
then everyone knows the truth

Dan

graham christian 08-14-2012 01:55 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 314082)
Reminded me of this quote from Hiroshi Tada:

Best,

Chris

Very true however give those statements to those with competitive and fighting minds and you get one interpretation but give them to the true martial artist and you get another.

Peace.G.

Marc Abrams 08-14-2012 01:59 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
O'Sensei was able to foster peace because he was capable of destroying violence. People who lack the ability to destroy violence can only talk about peace in the best of times, without any ability to sustain the peace in bad times.

"Ki testing" in a purely cooperative fashion breeds nothing other than "ki ability" in good times. The ability to utilize Ki and Aiki in the worst of times should be at the heart of what we train for. Dan Harden happens to be an excellent and honest teacher in helping us rise to the highest levels at the worst times. Chris Li's quoting of Tada Sensei is yet another example of teachers who reflect the true depth and potential of our MARTIAL art. If people are not willing/able, etc to keep the martial in the art, should look to Noro Sensei as a man with deep integrity to change the name of what he was doing to be honest to all.

marc abrams

graham christian 08-14-2012 02:01 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 314084)
Quoting other peoples ideas is easy and for some, it's all they've got. They usually will not last even 30 seconds against someone who actually knows what it really means.

Budo is funny, here is thread about testing and making people stronger....that can't answer its own premise.
Why Budo clothing?
Why weapons?
Why joint locks?
Why attacks?
Why Uke /Nage?
Why use the words make people stronger?

Here I'll quote others..

Everyone talks
you shugyo
years go by
people still talking
then you get up to demonstrate
then everyone knows the truth

Dan

Sorry Dan you talking about yourself as you quote others far more than most.You even finish with one.

Your questions are easily answered so I don't get your point.

Ki testing is good there's no more to say about it, it's straightforward and Aikido. All about harmony.

Peace.G.

Chris Li 08-14-2012 02:11 PM

Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 314085)
Very true however give those statements to those with competitive and fighting minds and you get one interpretation but give them to the true martial artist and you get another.

Peace.G.

Well, I'm glad that we have "true martial artists" among us! :D

Best,

Chris


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