AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   General (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1)
-   -   Jan Hermansson Videos (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21584)

jamie yugawa 07-31-2012 02:08 AM

Jan Hermansson Videos
 
In reading Ellis Amdur's fantastic "It had to be felt column" about Jan Hermansson, I found some interesting videos.
The first an interesting demo celebrating 50 years of Swedish Aikido (Quite entertaining also!!)
http://youtu.be/57QcLsFfv08

The second a Guinness world record attempt of bending 522 bottle caps in 60 mins. He bends them between his Proximal phalanges on his index and middle fingers!!
http://youtu.be/L7mOxsPkEtQ

NagaBaba 07-31-2012 08:09 AM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
Quote:

Jamie Yugawa wrote: (Post 313662)
In reading Ellis Amdur's fantastic "It had to be felt column" about Jan Hermansson, I found some interesting videos.
The first an interesting demo celebrating 50 years of Swedish Aikido (Quite entertaining also!!)
http://youtu.be/57QcLsFfv08

The second a Guinness world record attempt of bending 522 bottle caps in 60 mins. He bends them between his Proximal phalanges on his index and middle fingers!!
http://youtu.be/L7mOxsPkEtQ

What a major disappointment....sloppy technique, not précises movements , constant bad timing, this is absolutely ridiculous and very sad. Understanding aikido = ZERO. The guy is straining to do the tricks a la Daito-ryu, which just clearly shows his null Daito-ryu competence. And all of that with over compliant, fat and out of shape ukes who don't know how to attack correctly and efficiently...

One more evidence that having exceptional power can easily damage aikido development.

Mark Freeman 07-31-2012 10:43 AM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 313671)
What a major disappointment....sloppy technique, not précises movements , constant bad timing, this is absolutely ridiculous and very sad. Understanding aikido = ZERO. The guy is straining to do the tricks a la Daito-ryu, which just clearly shows his null Daito-ryu competence. And all of that with over compliant, fat and out of shape ukes who don't know how to attack correctly and efficiently...

One more evidence that having exceptional power can easily damage aikido development.

Hi Nagababa,

you must stop sugar coating your critiques, and say what you really think :D

regards,

Mark

MM 07-31-2012 11:40 AM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 313671)
What a major disappointment....sloppy technique, not précises movements , constant bad timing, this is absolutely ridiculous and very sad. Understanding aikido = ZERO. The guy is straining to do the tricks a la Daito-ryu, which just clearly shows his null Daito-ryu competence. And all of that with over compliant, fat and out of shape ukes who don't know how to attack correctly and efficiently...

One more evidence that having exceptional power can easily damage aikido development.

Let's see ... he was 69 and had a bad hip. It was very clearly a choreographed demonstration.

I think you misspoke. Perhaps you didn't realize that Jan Hermansson moved to Tokyo around 1965 (were you even born then?) to train and did a lot of odd jobs to survive. Have you done that? Maybe you should do that for 15 years and when you hit 69, tell us if you still have the same thoughts. I certainly don't think you would.

If I compare your aikido to Shioda, Tomiki, Shirata, Ueshiba, Mochizuki, do you think you're going to look good? Or will your aikido look sloppy, have bad timing, and zero understanding of aiki? So maybe, instead of tossing rocks from inside the glass house, perhaps polishing the mirrors would be a better endeavor.

I think he's more than earned some respect. What have you done to earn it?

Mark

Gary David 07-31-2012 12:54 PM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 313679)

I think he's more than earned some respect.

Mark

What Mark said........

jamie yugawa 07-31-2012 01:08 PM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 313671)
What a major disappointment....sloppy technique, not précises movements , constant bad timing, this is absolutely ridiculous and very sad. Understanding aikido = ZERO. The guy is straining to do the tricks a la Daito-ryu, which just clearly shows his null Daito-ryu competence. And all of that with over compliant, fat and out of shape ukes who don't know how to attack correctly and efficiently...

I think you also left out lack of showmanship and zero sense of humor......:D

aikishihan 07-31-2012 01:10 PM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
What Mark and Gary said.

I trained with Jan back in 1974. All that Ellis Amdur reported is essentially correct. Yet, I can acknowledge a basic decency and honesty in that man who struggled to survive in a foreign land. Jan was a yondan at that time, and it was reported that only Masuda Shihan could really control him. Poor Miyamoto san. I believe that he still has nightmares. Jan was tough, but he was also kind.

TokyoZeplin 07-31-2012 01:33 PM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
He may very well be an amazing Aikidoka, I've never met him, heard about him, or read about him, so I wouldn't know. But whether he's lived a hard life, or studied Aikido for a long time, really has nothing to do with whether his techniques are good or not, or whether people should respect him (in the Aikido context) or not. I don't see the relevance why people should bring that up.

From the video though, you can't tell much either, because the Uke's were basically falling clowns. Heck, at one point, Uke stops attack mid way when it becomes clear that wasn't what he wanted, then just stands there, gets pushed in the back, and makes an overdramatic fall into the other Uke.

I won't say anything about him or the techniques, I don't really have the qualifications to do that, but for that specific video, it was a poor show.

chillzATL 07-31-2012 01:43 PM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 313679)
Let's see ... he was 69 and had a bad hip. It was very clearly a choreographed demonstration.

I think you misspoke. Perhaps you didn't realize that Jan Hermansson moved to Tokyo around 1965 (were you even born then?) to train and did a lot of odd jobs to survive. Have you done that? Maybe you should do that for 15 years and when you hit 69, tell us if you still have the same thoughts. I certainly don't think you would.

If I compare your aikido to Shioda, Tomiki, Shirata, Ueshiba, Mochizuki, do you think you're going to look good? Or will your aikido look sloppy, have bad timing, and zero understanding of aiki? So maybe, instead of tossing rocks from inside the glass house, perhaps polishing the mirrors would be a better endeavor.

I think he's more than earned some respect. What have you done to earn it?

Mark

c'mon Mark, he didn't take shots at the man on a personal level and anecdotal facts about the man doesn't change the fact that from a technical perspective it looks like a bad big guy demo. It's no more disrespectful to say that than it is to frequently point out to people that they didn't get aiki, don't understand what aiki is, can't really use their aikido and practice with overly compliant ukes. The humor of the demo was not initially obvious to me either (no sound) and after reading the IHTBF column, I was a little disappointed too, but once I turned up the volume I got it and enjoyed it for what it was. Your followup also provided some additional context for why the demo looked like it did that nobody is going to have otherwise. Without the added context, from a purely technical perspective, would you see it any differently than he did?

Kevin Leavitt 07-31-2012 10:35 PM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
Never got the sense that he was attempting to demonstrate the best most efficient aikido in the world. What I saw was an old man with a life of experience enjoying himself on the mat, having fun and adding some drama and flair for effect.

I was thinking....I hope that is me one day.

PeterR 07-31-2012 11:51 PM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
There is a reason I hate Video - especially those little hidden ones. Still pictures are bad enough.

There is always the peanut gallery ready with their assumptions.

Hellis 08-01-2012 02:00 AM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
I don't know Mr Hermansson, looked to me like a guy enjoying the latter end of his career, I apologise on behalf of us `olduns` if we are not as agile as we used to could

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-mma.blogspot.com/

Alex Megann 08-01-2012 05:30 AM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
It can be saddening to see the greats of yesteryear ravaged by time and the long-term consequences of some of the crazy things we do (overdo?) in our youth.

The late lamented Ken Cottier couldn't sit in seize because of arthritis resulting from an old knee injury, and found it uncomfortable to move between sitting and standing, but when you practised with him you always had the feeling that this was someone who could kill you faster than you could blink (but, luckily for you, chose not to).

I enjoyed watching the (also late) Kiyoyuki Terada teaching in the UK a few years ago. At eighty years of age, when he entered the dojo with two walking sticks and then did a standing rei, one might assume that this was a harmless old man: serious mistake! His vigour and speed on the mat were astonishing and quite frightening.

I suspect that Jan Hermannson has absolutely nothing to prove these days, and can't imagine that he would be at all bothered by the criticisms of the demonstration. I have never met him, but I would be surprised if he would be easily overpowered even now if someone chose to attack him seriously. I have to admit that I was disappointed too when I first watched the film clip, particularly by the rather slow and bulky attackers. All the same, I would agree that in this case he is simply having a good time, despite his physical limitations and discomfort, and that it would be unwise to judge his prowess from this clip.

Alex

NagaBaba 08-01-2012 11:35 AM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
Yes, I was looking for the humor and found it, but it was very sad humor. ‘Bad guys’ from this demo are in reality the sad clowns. I sincerely hope you will never face a real bad guy in your life.

It is very clear, that this demo was not about most efficient techniques, also, I said nothing about speed or agility…When you have excellent technique when you are young and fit, it stays forever. Look at the most of direct students of O sensei. If one practices hard and long enough, there are always physical limitations because of the injuries, but good strong technique will be clearly visible. I know quite a few shihans with severe body limitations, but when you see them practice, you can’t even say they are injured – one example was S.Sugano sensei, he had leg amputation, but after, anybody watching him couldn’t see it! He was moving just like before surgery.

Now, there are always urban legends, stories, how long time ago, it was better than today. However the reality is as anybody with decent training experience can see with his eyes.

Many ppl was struggling to survive after moving to foreign country, me included. It is difficult experience but nothing exceptional. Exceptional is to survive a war. I also know many excellent aikidokas who survived war.
Of course, you can keep looking for other cheap excuses for poor technique; the reality is what it is.

I’m not blind, when I see excellent technique I say ‘excellent’, if I see a misery, I say “it is a misery’.

Mary Eastland 08-01-2012 12:43 PM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
Have you ever thought of saying nothing?

mathewjgano 08-01-2012 01:28 PM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
I thought the post by Carsten on the IHTBF column was beautiful and apt for this thead.
Take care,
Matt

lbb 08-01-2012 02:24 PM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 313713)
I thought the post by Carsten on the IHTBF column was beautiful and apt for this thead.

"...moved his body the way it was possible for him". Nice.

graham christian 08-01-2012 02:36 PM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 313713)
I thought the post by Carsten on the IHTBF column was beautiful and apt for this thead.
Take care,
Matt

That puts some perspective on things, good.

It reminds me of my recent visit to my old teacher who is now a bit fragile physically too. Whilst attacking him and being thrown I was aware I was being more careful for his sake for I was wanting to fully experience the whole feeling of him.

When watching I saw the change when someone attacked with a bokken. I looked at my friend who was visiting with me and we smiled knowingly for the old 'Mike' had reappeared and the effect on the attacker was awesome. Like in that column you refer to in this case it was the sleeping samurai who had been reawakened.

When we left I gave him a hug and then shook his hand and turned to leave. His hand was soft and yet as I walked away found myself bouncing back with my hand 'stuck' to his. He winked, I smiled. He's still got it.

Peace.G.

MM 08-01-2012 05:48 PM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
It would seem some people have yet to realize there's more to life than just excellent technique or misery. That some people took the challenges, moved to Japan, trained in an environment that wasn't always nice or easy or fun, built reputations, challenged others, and became shining lights for others. And at 69, Jan Hermansson got out there on the mat to do something he must love. You can see the trouble he had rising. You can see he doesn't move as well anymore. Yet, there he is, celebrating 50 years of Swedish aikido. Built from his sweat, blood, and life. The value and respect of that is worth far more than what some unknown aikido person thinks of a choreographed demonstration.

graham christian 08-01-2012 06:06 PM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 313708)
Yes, I was looking for the humor and found it, but it was very sad humor. ‘Bad guys' from this demo are in reality the sad clowns. I sincerely hope you will never face a real bad guy in your life.

It is very clear, that this demo was not about most efficient techniques, also, I said nothing about speed or agility…When you have excellent technique when you are young and fit, it stays forever. Look at the most of direct students of O sensei. If one practices hard and long enough, there are always physical limitations because of the injuries, but good strong technique will be clearly visible. I know quite a few shihans with severe body limitations, but when you see them practice, you can't even say they are injured -- one example was S.Sugano sensei, he had leg amputation, but after, anybody watching him couldn't see it! He was moving just like before surgery.

Now, there are always urban legends, stories, how long time ago, it was better than today. However the reality is as anybody with decent training experience can see with his eyes.

Many ppl was struggling to survive after moving to foreign country, me included. It is difficult experience but nothing exceptional. Exceptional is to survive a war. I also know many excellent aikidokas who survived war.
Of course, you can keep looking for other cheap excuses for poor technique; the reality is what it is.

I'm not blind, when I see excellent technique I say ‘excellent', if I see a misery, I say "it is a misery'.

If I was thinking the video was one showing Aikido excellence I may well say 'it's a misery' or some such. So from that view you speak, that's fine. However, after reading up on him, (not the stuff about where he went or who he trained with) finding he was actually a very competent Aikidoka and yet now physically not very 'mobile' would you have a slightly changed view? (Bearing in mind that if it was your old teacher)

Nothing wrong with saying what you saw by the way as anyone outside of Aikido or outside of knowing anything other than what the images show would no doubt say the same.

Peace.G.

JO 08-01-2012 07:08 PM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
Sorry Szczepan,
I like the humour and the show of it, most people that have reached his rank take themselves far too seriously. As to his aikido. It may not be the prettiest I've seen, but it looked more stable and less sloppy than much of what I've seen you do.

sakumeikan 08-02-2012 01:52 AM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
Dear All,
One thing in life we cannot avoid is death and taxes.In even the most perfect physical specimen is reduced to a heap .Firm well toned muscles droop like spaniels ears.No one escapes Father time.
The video of Hermansson may not be pretty , but his pedigree , past achievements and his commitment to aikido is wonderful.Cheers, Joe.
Ps.Only Mitt Romney and politicians seem to avoid taxation.Must be hard being a multi millionaire and filling in a tax return, eh???

Hanna B 08-02-2012 03:20 AM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
There are those people whose aikido look very good, but when you practise with them you feel it's somewhat hollow. The form may look very correct, but the substance beneath the form is lacking.

And there are those who don't look all that good, but whose aikido feels a whole lot better. I don't suppose Hermansson's aikido ever was extremely pretty but he has always been respected for his ability in all parts of Swedish aikido that I know of, also among people who focus on other aspects of aikido than he has done. FWIW.

The only way for old legends to avoid the peanut gallery probably is to quit training. Most people with injuries and disabilites far smaller than his do. Only young people - oh yes in context you're young Unpronouncable One - would compare moving with a prostethic limb, with moving with a body that is giving you pain.

Hanna B 08-02-2012 03:55 AM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
BTW I was a bit surprised to see Ellis Amdur's It Had To Be Felt column on Hermansson. The charter for the colums says they are supposed to deal with taking ukemi for teachers. Surely Hermansson has done quite a bit of teaching, but he never was known as one of the major teachers over here. He never even had his own dojo... always residing in dojos run by people junior to him, and never having a big crowd fo followers.

Regarding Carsten Möllering's comment in the It Had To Be Felt thread, Endo sensei has often made a point of pointing out Hermansson as his senior. I don't think neither Hermansson nor Endo finds that a remarkable thing to do. Hermansson started his training at Hombu before Endo did, so Hermansson is logically the senior. Sometimes though Endo sensei has made more of a point of it, like introducing Hermansson to the crowd at a seminar saying "This is Janne Hermansson. When I was an uchi deshi at Hombu dojo, I was very afraid of him. I am still very afraid of him." This goes both ways, though. Having your seniors coming training for you is a compliment that perhaps should in some way be returned.

sakumeikan 08-02-2012 04:15 AM

Re: Jan Hermansson Videos
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 313708)
Yes, I was looking for the humor and found it, but it was very sad humor. ‘Bad guys' from this demo are in reality the sad clowns. I sincerely hope you will never face a real bad guy in your life.

It is very clear, that this demo was not about most efficient techniques, also, I said nothing about speed or agility…When you have excellent technique when you are young and fit, it stays forever. Look at the most of direct students of O sensei. If one practices hard and long enough, there are always physical limitations because of the injuries, but good strong technique will be clearly visible. I know quite a few shihans with severe body limitations, but when you see them practice, you can't even say they are injured -- one example was S.Sugano sensei, he had leg amputation, but after, anybody watching him couldn't see it! He was moving just like before surgery.

Now, there are always urban legends, stories, how long time ago, it was better than today. However the reality is as anybody with decent training experience can see with his eyes.

Many ppl was struggling to survive after moving to foreign country, me included. It is difficult experience but nothing exceptional. Exceptional is to survive a war. I also know many excellent aikidokas who survived war.
Of course, you can keep looking for other cheap excuses for poor technique; the reality is what it is.

I'm not blind, when I see excellent technique I say ‘excellent', if I see a misery, I say "it is a misery'.

Dear Naga Baba,
A certain well known person stated the following'Judge not, that ye be not judged.'Wise words .
We do indeed judge or criticise people rather a lot nowadays.I also think that one has to be charitable on occasion.As I said in another blog,we cannot remain strong and virile forver.
To still be alive after 73 years I consider myself very fortunate.My battle is constant .Injury , illness have left their mark.Like Spartacus said 'I live '.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:32 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.