AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   General (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1)
-   -   Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not) (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21533)

Guillaume Erard 07-17-2012 01:18 AM

Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
For the non French speakers, I did a quick translation in English of the open letter of Christian Tissier Shihan to the heads of French Aikido regarding his promotion to 8th Dan.

Quote:

"Open letter to the heads of French Aikido
I have been informed that the FFAAA, the federation to which I belong, had requested my promotion to the rank of 8th Dan during the past meeting of the CSDGE (Commission Spécialisée des Dan et Grades Équivalents) [translator's note: governmental grading comity that sanction the Dan promotions of all members of accredited Aikido federations].

Although the grading comity of the FFAB [translator's note: the other of the two accredited French federations] is on principle agreeable to the motion, it has decided to render its agreement conditional to the solving of a past contention between the two federations in a way that is exclusively beneficial to the FFAB. This places my nomination at the center of a shocking blackmail that is totally independent of the technical and human values that such a grade is supposed to reflect.

In return, the use of this "veto power" has resulted in the suspension in the processing of all other exceptional nominations for both federations.

Therefore, in order not to be awarded a grade upon criteria others than those that it is supposed to sanction, and in order not to penalize other practitioners of value in their respective nominations, I have decided to ask Maxime Dehomme and the members of the CSDGE within my federation to withdraw their request for my promotion to the grade of 8th Dan.

July 15th 2012

Christian Tissier"

Chris Li 07-17-2012 02:04 AM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Quote:

Guillaume Erard wrote: (Post 313003)
For the non French speakers, I did a quick translation in English of the open letter of Christian Tissier Shihan to the heads of French Aikido regarding his promotion to 8th Dan.

That's interesting, does that mean that Dan grades in France come from the CSDGE rather than from hombu? Or do people get separate grades from both entities?

Best,

Chris

Guillaume Erard 07-17-2012 02:37 AM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 313004)
That's interesting, does that mean that Dan grades in France come from the CSDGE rather than from hombu? Or do people get separate grades from both entities?

Correct as far as I understand. Technically, Hombu is supposed to wait for a practitioner to have his/her federal grade before awarding Aikikai grades. In France it is illegal to use the word Dan if it was not given by a state-recognized commission.

JJF 07-17-2012 03:00 AM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
I have no knowledge of this specific matter nor of the way French Aikido is organized, but it is always sad when politics stands in the way of the development of Aikido - be that teachers, grades, students, organisations, dojos or any other aspect. Alas it seems to be more and more frequent once higher ranks are being discussed.

Recently a Danish person has been awarded 8th dan in Iaido (think it is Muso Shinden Ryu) which is - as far as I know - the first outside Japan, and it has been quite an unorthodox decision. 8th dan for Tissier sensei would be also quite a steppingstone forward in recognition of the globalization of Japanese Budo.

I hope the two organsiations will find a way to mend their relationship.

Jørgen Jakob

PeterR 07-17-2012 04:10 AM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Quote:

Guillaume Erard wrote: (Post 313005)
Correct as far as I understand. Technically, Hombu is supposed to wait for a practitioner to have his/her federal grade before awarding Aikikai grades. In France it is illegal to use the word Dan if it was not given by a state-recognized commission.

So what happens if I received my Dan grade from Japan or some other country where the state is not involved and move to France.

In Germany it is illegal for a scientist to call himself Dr. unless that Ph.D. was from a German university or an exception applied for and granted. I just can't fathom the thinking behind this - who comes up with these laws and why.

crbateman 07-17-2012 04:21 AM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
It is indeed a shame that well-deserved recognition should come with so many "hooks" in it. Tissier Sensei has handled this in a classy and unselfish manner. I hope that more sensible priorities will prevail.

Graham Farquhar 07-17-2012 06:53 AM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
I have always wondered about the division of aikido in france and the 2 associations, which I believe goes back a number of years. This situation is unlikely to heal any rifts. A real shame.

Guillaume Erard 07-17-2012 07:08 AM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 313008)
So what happens if I received my Dan grade from Japan or some other country where the state is not involved and move to France.
.

Precisely, you would not be recognized or allowed to mention any Dan grade. That would certainly be my case if I ever returned to France.:uch:

Graham Farquhar 07-17-2012 07:14 AM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Follow up from my post Chris Li's excellent article an interview with Tamura Sensei part 2 gives a little indication that the split was complicated.

PeterR 07-17-2012 07:40 AM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
This is interesting - there is a Shodokan Aikido club in Paris that I am sure is outside the French Aikido system. Rogue in more ways than one.

Chuck Clark 07-17-2012 08:48 AM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Bravo to M. Tissier. Very appropriately done. As Peter wrote, laws such as this regarding the banning of titles earned outside their jurisdiction are ridiculous. Upon verification, there should be a recognition of rightly earned degrees and titles from other countries. Pretty juvenile not to really...

** Peter, with regard to our lineage... Tam pis...Tout jours l'audace!!!!

Chris Li 07-17-2012 09:37 AM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Quote:

Graham Farquhar wrote: (Post 313016)
Follow up from my post Chris Li's excellent article an interview with Tamura Sensei part 2 gives a little indication that the split was complicated.

Just reading that section of the interview gave me a headache. :D

I wonder what would happen if CSDGE certified a grading but hombu declined? Or is hombu a true rubber stamp in the process?

Best,

Chris

rulemaker 07-17-2012 11:08 AM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
If Hombu awards him his 8th Dan then he is an 8th Dan the rest of the world. Who cares about french budo politics.

Cliff Judge 07-17-2012 11:09 AM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 313008)
So what happens if I received my Dan grade from Japan or some other country where the state is not involved and move to France.

In Germany it is illegal for a scientist to call himself Dr. unless that Ph.D. was from a German university or an exception applied for and granted. I just can't fathom the thinking behind this - who comes up with these laws and why.

I am not sure if this is true for France, but I have always had a suspicion that it is:

One reason I could conceive of for a country to decide to sanction and control the rankings for practitioners of foreign martial arts would be if public facilities and perhaps funding is made available to people for practicing martial arts. You might not want someone with a black belt from a belt mill to come in and say "okay, I am going to start using the gymnasium over there with the sprung floor to teach my students, I will need a couple of two-hour blocks a week." And whatever else they might demand, I am an American so my imagination does not serve me very well here.

But the point is, IF (and not sure if this is the picture in France, but I think it is something like it) the people decided to set aside a bunch of public funds for facilities for martial arts instruction, there would have to be some kind of official vetting process for people who were going to teach there. And maybe you'd want to do that INSIDE the martial arts system you were trying to support as opposed to externally.

Menisong 07-17-2012 11:21 AM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Quote:

Guillaume Erard wrote: (Post 313015)
Precisely, you would not be recognized or allowed to mention any Dan grade. That would certainly be my case if I ever returned to France.:uch:

I would be surprised if there is not a process for recognizing Dan grades earned outside France. I am sure it involves some hoop jumping and lots of paper work, but I am confident the process is there.

Dave Gallagher 07-17-2012 11:23 AM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Quote from Chris Li:
"Just reading that section of the interview gave me a headache"

.....Yes me too but I also felt that I needed a nap after reading as well. I think I'll go back and read it on those nights I can't sleep LOl..

Chris Li 07-17-2012 01:11 PM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Quote:

Rommel Miel wrote: (Post 313039)
If Hombu awards him his 8th Dan then he is an 8th Dan the rest of the world. Who cares about french budo politics.

As I understand it, hombu won't award him an 8th dan unless it goes through the CSDGE first. Or did I read that wrong?

Best,

Chris

danielajames 07-17-2012 01:20 PM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Probably just need the English to provide an 8th dan promotion or two and the French will sort themselves out real quick ;)

Rob Watson 07-17-2012 01:21 PM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Quote:

Rommel Miel wrote: (Post 313039)
If Hombu awards him his 8th Dan then he is an 8th Dan the rest of the world. Who cares about french budo politics.

Isn't the way it works generally anywhere is one goes through their association to submit ranks to hombu? Super shihan excepted.

Nick P. 07-17-2012 04:34 PM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Years ago we welcomed a French student to our club for a while. Over drinks I asked her how testing was conducted in her dojo, as I was curious.

She went on to explain that both aforementioned Federations tested their students at the same time, with a board comprised of an equal number from each Federation. If I remember correctly, she stated that your testing partner was from the other Federation (and yes, this meant each Federation had to present the same number of students for testing), and that the board had to agree that either both passed their tests or both failed. Yes, this meant that sometimes you should have passed but you and your partner were failed because you partner sucked miserably, or that you passed though you sucked but your partner shinned.

With the above in mind, this all makes sense, and I am most impressed with Tissier Sensei's tact in this matter.

Dave Gallagher 07-17-2012 04:59 PM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Tissier sensei has done the best thing but it's a shame that this situation exists. This exposes the worst of organisations and of government.

TokyoZeplin 07-17-2012 06:47 PM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 313040)
I am not sure if this is true for France, but I have always had a suspicion that it is:

One reason I could conceive of for a country to decide to sanction and control the rankings for practitioners of foreign martial arts would be if public facilities and perhaps funding is made available to people for practicing martial arts. You might not want someone with a black belt from a belt mill to come in and say "okay, I am going to start using the gymnasium over there with the sprung floor to teach my students, I will need a couple of two-hour blocks a week." And whatever else they might demand, I am an American so my imagination does not serve me very well here.

But the point is, IF (and not sure if this is the picture in France, but I think it is something like it) the people decided to set aside a bunch of public funds for facilities for martial arts instruction, there would have to be some kind of official vetting process for people who were going to teach there. And maybe you'd want to do that INSIDE the martial arts system you were trying to support as opposed to externally.

This nails it.
The reasons why titles don't automatically cross, is because standards are different in different countries. I certainly wouldn't want a "doctor" automatically being granted the ability to call himself that, and operate on patients, simply because he got a "doctor" title in some random third world country.
Whenever a title carries responsibility with it, it's important to make sure that the title also lives up to the demands of that responsibility. In the case of Martial Arts, it can be to avoid injury of students, avoid teaching hazardous moves, avoid getting leeches gaining government funding, and so forth.

George S. Ledyard 07-17-2012 07:05 PM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Quote:

Chuck Clark wrote: (Post 313024)
Pretty juvenile not to really...

Show me the money...

Guillaume Erard 07-17-2012 07:18 PM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Quote:

Daniel James wrote: (Post 313054)
Probably just need the English to provide an 8th dan promotion or two and the French will sort themselves out real quick ;)

Got me laughing out loud on that one!:D

Guillaume Erard 07-17-2012 07:25 PM

Re: Christian Tissier's 8th Dan promotion (or not)
 
Quote:

Marc Carlstrom wrote: (Post 313043)
I would be surprised if there is not a process for recognizing Dan grades earned outside France. I am sure it involves some hoop jumping and lots of paper work, but I am confident the process is there.

Yes that is true, but it really boils down to how much bending over backwards you are ready to do to get it.

That being said, I do not think that the fact that the government wanting to regulate titles and teaching credentials is necessarily a bad thing. I have seen too many dangerous things being taught to children in my time abroad by unqualified, so-called Sensei.

Also, let's not forget that Aikidoka in France are 70 000 strong primarily thanks to the generous help of the government in terms of funding and facilities. If really people wanted to get rid of the state's influence, they probably could, but it means that they would have to become real pros and loose benefits from the government's generosity. Tuitions would also get a lot more expensive as a result.

So I think that given the context, Christian Tissier's response is exemplary, but as far as the situation is concerned, things are not as simple as it seems.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:34 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.