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Mary Eastland 07-16-2012 06:57 AM

hips and shoulders
 
Have you noticed how when you turn your hips and let you hands stay in proportion to your hips, your shoulders follow your hips and can provide extra opportunity to your hands?

Gerardo Torres 07-16-2012 11:48 AM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
I don't think you should be turning from your hips. At least we don't do that in weapons, and I've been working to remove that habit from aikido as well.

SeiserL 07-16-2012 11:58 AM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
Yes agreed.

If you point everything in one direction and move as a unified body, combined with mental focus/awareness and intention/attention/projection, you may just find some extra power and opportunities.

lbb 07-16-2012 02:42 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
Are "turning your hips" and "turning from your hips" the same thing?

Mary Eastland 07-16-2012 03:22 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
Uke pushes...nage turns at the hips...nage's opposite arm comes underneath uke's elbow and past, curling up...nage turns hips back in the direction whense she came ...uke's elbow collapses as nage's shoulder follows nage's opposite hip.

What I am noticing is how the shoulder joint can move to help unsettle uke as it moves in conjunction with the hips.

I hope that is clearer than mud. :o)

Gerardo Torres 07-16-2012 04:03 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 312977)
Are "turning your hips" and "turning from your hips" the same thing?

Add a third one: "turns at the hips". All three imply a conscious decision to use hip rotation to source or generate power, or initiate/create movement. All three are inefficient ways to do this IMO, especially keeping shoulders and hips rotating in unison as this will cause one to get locked and stopped pretty easily. Also, if hips and shoulders are rotating together, what's happening to the knees?

Chris Li 07-16-2012 04:14 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
Try Googling "three external harmonies" - here's the first result that came up when I tried it:

http://www.martialtaichi.co.uk/artic..._harmonies.php

Best,

Chris

Chris Knight 07-16-2012 04:17 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
plus one gerrado

mary ~ my thoughts would be to try to neutralise the push, or worst case scenario turn with ur centre, not your hips

just my opinion

regards Chris

Chris Li 07-16-2012 04:23 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
Quote:

Chris Knight wrote: (Post 312982)
plus one gerrado

mary ~ my thoughts would be to try to neutralise the push, or worst case scenario turn with ur centre, not your hips

just my opinion

regards Chris

Yes, I'd go with (the other) Chris and Gerardo - no turning from da hips.

Best,

Chris

Janet Rosen 07-16-2012 04:24 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
Quote:

Chris Knight wrote: (Post 312982)
... turn with ur centre, not your hips

I didn't understand the difference between center and hips well until I started having to do seated kokyudosa from a crosslegged, therefore externally static, position. I could not move my hips but could instead focus on free movement of my center - not as "there" as I'd like but in fact its a lovely exercise for it....

Mary Eastland 07-16-2012 05:06 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 312983)
Yes, I'd go with (the other) Chris and Gerardo - no turning from da hips.

Best,

Chris

Thanks for your input...did you try it?

Chris Li 07-16-2012 05:17 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 312985)
Thanks for your input...did you try it?

The exercise you were talking about? Not yet. Not turning from the hips? All the time. Hips can turn, I'd say, but only if you are also changing location.

Best,

Chris

RonRagusa 07-16-2012 05:35 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
Quote:

Chris Knight wrote: (Post 312982)
my thoughts would be to try to neutralise the push

In this exercise the push is neutralized before any motion takes place.

Ron

graham christian 07-16-2012 05:54 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
In answer to the o/p I find yes and no.

Yes in as much as if wanting to use your shoulder then the connection with the hips is imperative.

Secondly I would say that two things can be practiced:
1) Turning from centre.
2) Turning from hips (koshi) (kua)

I would ask you Mary as to which part of the hips do you feel you are moving ie: the whole bowl so to speak or do you concentrate on relaxing the back of the hips and thus that pivotal point.?

Personally now I find the shoulders 'disappearing' when turning the hips, going 'passive' rather than 'active' and if I am reading your exercise correctly it would then lead me more to a kokyu ho type exercise.

Peace.G.

SeiserL 07-16-2012 05:57 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
IMHO, taking the structural alignment from the foot, up the leg, "through" the hips/center/hara, extended into the elbows, out the fingers, extended/projected into and through the uke's center, towards a kuzushi point tends to do it for me.

Visualize the path. Energy follows focus.

Mary Eastland 07-16-2012 06:00 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
Shoulder disappearing then reemerging... blending with uke's push when needed... not if if not needed. Each uke is so different.

graham christian 07-16-2012 06:17 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 312990)
Shoulder disappearing then reemerging... blending with uke's push when needed... not if if not needed. Each uke is so different.

Granted. I agree.

As an added bit of interest your description reminded me of something I was taught or rather shown many moons ago and although it's not really to do with hip/shoulder it is to do with turning and then turning back.

I was wondering how comes the teacher could turn me back and flip me with hardly any movement from himself. He showed me what it looked like if done so that I could see it. He proceeded to take my attack and lead me around with a complete tai sabaki and then turn back with kote gaeshi. All very slowly and comfortably.

He said after lots of practice and focus on the flows and energy of such basics you can already have it done which looks to the outsider like a short cut or something totally different. Yet energy wise it's the same as that slow well recognizable form.

Peace.G.

SeiserL 07-17-2012 09:25 AM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
I also like the image of a double-cross: in which there are two horizontal arms (the shoulders and the hips) directly aligned with each other and a third vertical post (the spine). Turn neither the shoulders or the hips, turn the spine.

Mary Eastland 07-17-2012 09:30 AM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote: (Post 313028)
I also like the image of a double-cross: in which there are two horizontal arms (the shoulders and the hips) directly aligned with each other and a third vertical post (the spine). Turn neither the shoulders or the hips, turn the spine.

Yes....thanks.

I have couple of students who can't find their hips...hense my fascination with this right now.

graham christian 07-17-2012 11:39 AM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
I wrote about this when I talked about Koshi. Basically Japanese use the word to mean hips but more specifically the back of the hips, base of the spine.

So when Japanese teachers used to tell my teacher to open his hips he found many didn't understand as they saw the hips conceptually as that bowl or even the sides rather than what was meant.

Once again it's a western concept put over the Japanese and so people struggle with understanding it.

To get the reality to my students I get them practicing the feeling of sitting on a comfortable chair or setee and how that action is where you naturally relax the back of the hips and and lower it. Thus awareness of koshi and the Japanese meaning for hips is gained.

I then give examples of let's say the horse stance and how that is sitting in koshi.

Other methods of how to find the hips.

Peace.G.

Mary Eastland 07-17-2012 12:58 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 313047)
I wrote about this when I talked about Koshi. Basically Japanese use the word to mean hips but more specifically the back of the hips, base of the spine.

So when Japanese teachers used to tell my teacher to open his hips he found many didn't understand as they saw the hips conceptually as that bowl or even the sides rather than what was meant.

Once again it's a western concept put over the Japanese and so people struggle with understanding it.

To get the reality to my students I get them practicing the feeling of sitting on a comfortable chair or setee and how that action is where you naturally relax the back of the hips and and lower it. Thus awareness of koshi and the Japanese meaning for hips is gained.

I then give examples of let's say the horse stance and how that is sitting in koshi.

Other methods of how to find the hips.

Peace.G.

Great, I will give that a try. :)

Chris Li 07-17-2012 01:15 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 313047)
I wrote about this when I talked about Koshi. Basically Japanese use the word to mean hips but more specifically the back of the hips, base of the spine.

So when Japanese teachers used to tell my teacher to open his hips he found many didn't understand as they saw the hips conceptually as that bowl or even the sides rather than what was meant.

Well there is a specific instance (ie, a backache) in which the koshi is used for the lower back area, but generally they're just talking about the whole pelvic region.

Best,

Chris

graham christian 07-17-2012 01:58 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 313053)
Well there is a specific instance (ie, a backache) in which the koshi is used for the lower back area, but generally they're just talking about the whole pelvic region.

Best,

Chris

Not so. In martial arts and in medicine which is far more pertinent to the discussion.

Funny thing is that tai chi also has a problem with peoples misunderstanding of a similar thing they call kua or cua ( I forget which is the right spelling).

The development of Koshi I would say is one of those fundamental 'secrets' hidden in plain sight and if you prefer a 'general' meaning for it then you will never get it.

Peace.G.

Chris Li 07-17-2012 02:19 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 313056)
Not so. In martial arts and in medicine which is far more pertinent to the discussion.

Funny thing is that tai chi also has a problem with peoples misunderstanding of a similar thing they call kua or cua ( I forget which is the right spelling).

The development of Koshi I would say is one of those fundamental 'secrets' hidden in plain sight and if you prefer a 'general' meaning for it then you will never get it.

Peace.G.

As I said, there are instances of use for the back region, but when most people (even martial artists) use it in reference to movement they're talking about the entire pelvis and waist combined.

You can make up your own usage for it, but Japanese people won't understand it.

The kua is something quite different.

Best,

Chris

graham christian 07-17-2012 03:04 PM

Re: hips and shoulders
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 313058)
As I said, there are instances of use for the back region, but when most people (even martial artists) use it in reference to movement they're talking about the entire pelvis and waist combined.

You can make up your own usage for it, but Japanese people won't understand it.

The kua is something quite different.

Best,

Chris

Strange as it was Japanese who taught us it and my Japanese friend who demonstrated it. But there again they were martial artists and in fact Aikidoka not Hiroshi the local shopkeeper.

Anyway, until you can use it as such and know where else in martial arts it is used and which ones compare to how I use it here then there's no more to say really.

Peace.G.


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