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-   -   Kata dori - tips to remember (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21501)

LinTal 07-05-2012 12:57 AM

Kata dori - tips to remember
 
Hi guys, I'd love to call on your collective genius if I may. :p

Shoulder-grab techniques are listed for the upcoming grading. Which is cool. Except. We don't do them really (ever) in class. So, I'm in a position where I'm going to try to wing it by lots of independant video study, visualising, movement practise, etc.

My question to you guys is; what would you consider the key differences from, say, gakku hanmi katate dori, for example? I remember something about whole-body movement and connection being absolutely vital (from the closer proximity, I think). What should I be striving for/ keeping in mind that's worked for you/ that you've gleaned over time?

Ah, the fun of a virtual dojo. Hey, no pressure!

GMaroda 07-05-2012 02:08 AM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
Beg sensei to teach kata-dori? :p

My own issues with these techniques tend to be over-rotation of the body. I'm not certain, but I think it occurs if I focus too much on the shoulder rather than my center. Then I end up moving from the shoulders instead of the hips. But that's my problem and may not be yours.

robin_jet_alt 07-05-2012 02:12 AM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
Well, a lot of what they expect depends on the teachers and organisation etc.

I really don't think it is much different to katate-dori. Obviously the proximity is closer, and because of that, you don't need such large movements, but otherwise, you should be able to do pretty much anything you can from a hand grab. Ikkyo, through to yonkyo at least are easy. There are also a lot of good kokyu throws that work better than a hand take because of the more direct connection.

Here is a clip of Gozo Shioda. Watch him take out the game show host at 5:30. Notice he doesn't need a very big movement because the connection is good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A80JowaLZWw

Janet Rosen 07-05-2012 09:58 AM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
We do a lot of katetori coming from a Tohei lineage and for me when working w/ newer folks the two main things to play with and be aware of are: how to move back in space while maintaining forward energy and extension, and how to "take away" that shoulder while maintaining the center line.

I actually don't try to do a lot of turning from my hip initially, because I DO want to stay energy forward and center aimed at uke. I find a large turning from the hip leads to overrotation away from uke. It opens my other side too much and it breaks any connection to uke.

While I move back in space as much as I need to, my feeling is that I'm doing an irimi with my opposite hip and just letting what was the front hip/foot/shoulder kick back in response to my entry, so uke sees and feels that space opening on the side of his grab, but I'm not in retreat.

ramenboy 07-05-2012 10:40 AM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
this has become one of my favorite movements, recently because of the details one of my teachers gave to me

think of moving from one hanmi to another. uke grabs your left shoulder, you move back, from left hanmi to right hanmi. simply stepping backwards will pull uke ontop of you. janet explained it really well. i try to remember that just because the foot steps back, it doesn't mean i should transfer all my weight to that foot. my 'orientation' should still have a forward feel to it. hanmi to hanmi.

connectingthe shoulders and hips, the movement of drawing the shoulder back should feel like pulling a bow, opening the chest

good luck

Janet Rosen 07-05-2012 12:00 PM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
Quote:

Jerome Cervantes wrote: (Post 312419)
connectingthe shoulders and hips, the movement of drawing the shoulder back should feel like pulling a bow, opening the chest

I like that.

phitruong 07-05-2012 12:48 PM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
usually, i go in first, then either aikiage or aikisage with shoulder, and a slight hips rotation either left or right, depends on what i want to do. also, if you want your uke to go right, then nudge your uke to the left first, and vice versa. an interesting way to practice, get a rope and tie it around your arms to pin it against your body at the elbow level. this way you can't use your arms. now do the kata dori whatever.

lbb 07-06-2012 10:00 AM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
Quote:

Greg Maroda wrote: (Post 312393)
Beg sensei to teach kata-dori? :p .

This seems like the best answer to me (or perhaps "insist" is a better verb, if you are being tested on it, after all...).

Mario Tobias 07-06-2012 03:07 PM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
common mistakes in katadori

1. when nage initiates kuzushi, nage draws uke to himself. this can happen in omote or ura. the test is if uke can push nage and make him tumble. proper distance and angles will be able to circumvent this. If the angles are wrong, I find 99% of ukes are compliant since they can push nage over but don't.

2. using the free arm too much to try to break uke. nage has the tendency to use the free arm too much cutting into uke's elbow thinking that this is the primary movement in taking uke's balance. the primary movement to break uke is with the center turning in coordination with "opening" the attacked shoulder.

3. for the attacked shoulder, not opening the shoulder and drawing the arm back. sensei doesn't like that arm to be "dead" and useless.

4. trying to remove uke's grabbing arm forcefully. uke's hand will be easy to remove once his arm is turned over.

5. not performing atemi

Mario Tobias 07-06-2012 03:23 PM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
this is my favorite clip for katadori

saito sensei
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4HkG...feature=relmfu

grondahl 07-06-2012 04:17 PM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
Nice clip. Notice how Saito sensei doesn't step back but moves to side and at the same time drops a little and get under uke. Easy in gotai, much harder in jutai or ryutai.

robin_jet_alt 07-06-2012 05:13 PM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
Quote:

Peter Gröndahl wrote: (Post 312531)
Nice clip. Notice how Saito sensei doesn't step back but moves to side and at the same time drops a little and get under uke. Easy in gotai, much harder in jutai or ryutai.

I also like this clip. This is how I like to think of kata-dori. Pay particular attention to how he says not to use the hand, but to use the shoulder to move uke.

Why is this harder in jutai or ryutai?

Abasan 07-07-2012 01:37 AM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
Just like in katatedori, don't initiate movement from your hands, here ... Shoulders, instead use center to move. Should take care of things.

grondahl 07-07-2012 04:34 AM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
Quote:

Robin Boyd wrote: (Post 312533)
I also like this clip. This is how I like to think of kata-dori. Pay particular attention to how he says not to use the hand, but to use the shoulder to move uke.

Why is this harder in jutai or ryutai?

My observations from practice: It´s particulary in jutai. When you speed things up most people starts going backwards instead and/or forgets to drop & rotate to get under uke. I personally havent met that many that can do that waza smooth and correct in jutai.

In ryutai it´s pretty common to not let uke get the grab and the waza becomes more like ai hanmi katatedori (or kosa dori if you like).

Ethan Weisgard 07-10-2012 09:22 AM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
Hi Jacob,
Sensei would sometimes teach the kata dori techniques with uke just using an open hand - resting the hand on nage's shoulder instead of a grab. This would emphasize the "awase" blending feeling you should have so you don't separate from uke (if you step back instead of to the side, for instance). This kind of practice helps you get the blend for the jutai form. As you mentioned, Sensei taught the ryutai form (which resembles ai hanmi katate dori) as a foot change / inside tai sabaki to a 45 degree angle in front of uke, grabbing on top of uke's hand, pulling slightly forward and down to make a small kuzushi before performing the upward, circular ikkyo movement.
In aiki
Ethan

LinTal 07-12-2012 01:03 AM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
Thanks guys.
That clip is brilliant, cheers! From this thread I also particularly like the imagery of the bow, and the emphasis on the angle moved for deflection. We tried a brief technique from kata dori and it made so much sense.
I was surprised at how similar the sense of space was to irimi nage once the force of the attack was dealt with. Just curious; who here finds it easier to initially deflect out in front vs. around out?

JJF 07-12-2012 02:40 AM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
Selin: I wonder.. do you just do kata dori, or is there some sort of follow up attack? we usually do katatori-menuchi which gives you a lot of energy to work with, but of course these other variations need to be studied as well.

From katadori menuchi more variations are possible. for example ikkyo and nikkyo can be tori-te or uchi-te depending on whether you grab the striking or gripping hand.

Apart from that I second the emphazis on atemi. Being so close it is necessary to be very precise in the way you use atemi to close the gap and to keep uke out of balance.

This might inspire you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8gH1kr-6tY

Good luck :)

phitruong 07-13-2012 07:53 AM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
Quote:

Selin Talay wrote: (Post 312389)
I remember something about whole-body movement and connection being absolutely vital (from the closer proximity, I think).

yes on whole-body movement and connection http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cKh7...elated#t=2m25s

Basia Halliop 07-13-2012 09:50 AM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
Quote:

Shoulder-grab techniques are listed for the upcoming grading. Which is cool. Except. We don't do them really (ever) in class. So, I'm in a position where I'm going to try to wing it by lots of independant video study, visualising, movement practise, etc.
Wow, for real?????? Do you not have any sempais? Or if it's too tiny a dojo, is there some reason you can't ask your teacher??

You're going to a school and studying with a teacher, and you have to learn the things your teacher expects you to know by asking strangers off the internet?

LinTal 07-14-2012 02:26 AM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
Basia, our regional director is the one that grades us when he visits Sydney from Auckland, so there's bound to be some discrepancy that gets negotiated on the day. It's just that I'm aware that I'm learning so much from classes as they are, and I'd not want to interrupt the overall training plan just to study up for a grading. There are specific and wonderful principles I'm learning about, way beyond any single technique or attack, and I'm trying not to let my limited perspective take away any opportunity to keep exploring those. I know there'll be greater social pressure when everyone's watching during the test, if the list of techniques is followed as it is, but I'm honestly just trying to ignore that so I keep focused on the learning process. To each their own, I guess... I hope that made any sense...

Good stuff Phi, cheers! And Jørgen, the guys I train with are really often like overgrown puppies; there's bound to be some energy flying around! Interesting videos, btw, looks like it's time to get the club around for a movie night...

Basia Halliop 07-17-2012 09:08 AM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
Sure, we all have our own preferred ways of preparing for tests (e.g., for me, I'd be asking people extra questions after class). In any case, good luck!

LinTal 07-19-2012 12:42 AM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
Thanks so much everyone, your input has meant the world (and an absolute mountain of food for thought!). Grading's pushed back to November (d'oh!) so pressure's off.

Cheers!

Maarten De Queecker 07-19-2012 03:18 PM

Re: Kata dori - tips to remember
 
Quote:

Peter Gröndahl wrote: (Post 312531)
Nice clip. Notice how Saito sensei doesn't step back but moves to side and at the same time drops a little and get under uke. Easy in gotai, much harder in jutai or ryutai.

What he does is so damn logical that it makes me wonder why I never thought of that in the first place. Then again, that seems to apply for the whole of aikido.

Well, guess I just added a new form to my repertoire! The more variations, the better!


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