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DH 06-29-2012 10:16 PM

It happens to the best of them
 
I remember Dave Lowry once writing that he has never trained with a Menkyo or high level teacher who did not make at least one error during training. I would agree with that assessment.

Here is the old man himself falling down
Of course it doesn't mean anything, but someone brought it up on my forum. Mentioning that they hadn't seen it before. I hadn't seen it before either.
Dan

Settokuryoku 06-29-2012 11:52 PM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
I won't disagree with Mr. Lowry's observation. I don't think anyone isn't susceptible to failure no matter who they are. In context, look at MMA. It is ludicrous to think there isn't going to be strikes exchanged, opportunities missed, miscalculations or other errors made by both winner and loser. A truth that says errors will be made no matter who it is, when engaged in martial arts. The "old man" falling down, much less at his age still performing technique well, let's us see what his is doing is real. He is real. His demonstration is real. It's our exceptions too high when we don't all margin of error, demanding the impossible standard of perfections. Here O'Sensei is publicly demonstrating. He isn't instructing a class. Two different venues. Errors will be made by both sides of the conflict, the winner is the one who makes the less significant and minimal errors. Mr. Harden pointing out O'Sensei's stumble, something evidently over-looked, indicates the wonderful no matter how good you are the fact remains everyone makes mistake. How quickly, often and how you recover from mistake is key. In a fighting situation add on how you exploit your opponent's mistakes. I have always enjoyed the work of Mr. Lowery, and he is spot on here IMHO. Martial artists, fighters and teachers are human, we are fallible.

David Orange 06-30-2012 12:24 AM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Quote:

Lukas Stark wrote: (Post 312078)
I won't disagree with Mr. Lowry's observation. I don't think anyone isn't susceptible to failure no matter who they are.

There's an old Japanese saying, "Saru mo ki kara ochiru": "even monkeys fall from trees."

I think it's a general saying, along with "Inu mo arukeba bo ni ataru," meaning "even dogs run into sticks when they go out walking."

So monkeys are great climbers but they still fall from trees and dogs are masters of the natural environment, but they still run right into a stick from time to time.

That certainly was a great video of aikido, though. That's real believable power. That guy led bunches of really powerful people and they all remembered him as a special master.

Not only does he stumble once in this clip, but I noticed that he was slightly struck on the back when he did the "aiki drop" in front of the shomen uchi attack. And I noticed for the first time a few instances where he seems to be very conscious of how he appears before the camera. That's interesting.

But I also notice many places where he shows that old daito ryu thing that we never see in modern aikido: the zanshin moment directly after a throw, with one arm up and one arm down, a posture assumed separately after the throw and not resulting from the action of the throw. And it's not in preparation to follow up with a downward strike, either, because the opponent has been thrown ten feet away.

We might say that it is preparation for the next technique, and I see now that it is just that. But in modern aikido, we don't see that kamae in nage very much as the attack comes, do we? How is that posture a preparation for the next technique? It was clearly a practice for O Sensei. Why is it not for the generations that followed?

If we see that posture at all in these later days, it's usually a set-up for a downward strike and it's usually done only with the upper arm and only for an instant. It seems that O Sensei's use of that posture is generally understood to "show the potential" of following up with a downward strike, so to show "understanding," people do the downward strike.

Even Morihei does it more quickly at some times and holds it longer at others, but it is clearly the raising of the arm that is important and the intent is not for striking down. So what is he doing with that raised arm?

And with that in mind, what is happening with the down arm? What is he dong that for? What are his feet doing? What are his head and eyes doing? How is he breathing? You can see all that in many moments when he assumes that posture in this clip. Very interesting and well worth repeated watching.

Best wishes.

{{And thanks, Dan!}}

David

Dave Gallagher 06-30-2012 08:13 AM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Having trained with Dave Lowry off and on for over 30 years in several arts I can tell you that he often tells a student who makes a mistake that no one is perfect and mistakes are part of the learning process.
In fact Lowry is Chairman of the Japanese Festival here in St.Louis. He was demonstraiting Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo with a Menkyo Kaiden holder Phil Relnick Last September. The jo came loose from Relnicks Sensei's left hand. Relnick Sensei laughed and commented about St.Louis outdoor demo's and being coated with sun screen that makes the jo try to go it's own way.
Even the Master is human.
When Lowry was teaching at the Shobukan Aikido Dojo he was showing us the next technique and in the middle of it he stops and smiles and says "but don't do it like this". He then adjusted his hand and said " this is the way it should be done". We all laughed at that one.
Even Dave Lowry is not perfect. Today he only teaches Jodo and sword but gives seminars in other budo and Koryu.
I miss those old days..

graham christian 06-30-2012 12:55 PM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
I think he tripped on his Hakama.

David. I would say there is a remarkable resemblance to how he returns to posture with arms as you say (sometimes) and tenshinage.

Thus I would say it's a return to hara and 'the floating bridge' between heaven and earth.

Peace.G.

Janet Rosen 06-30-2012 01:22 PM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
When I was learning to sew, I was never as relieved as when my incredibly stylish and masterful teacher came in one morning and ruefully admitted she'd sewn a sleeve in inside out and backwards the evening before...

David Orange 06-30-2012 01:31 PM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 312092)
I think he tripped on his Hakama.

That's what I thought.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 312092)
David. I would say there is a remarkable resemblance to how he returns to posture with arms as you say (sometimes) and tenshinage.

"Resemblance," yes. But since there is usually no one near at the moment he takes that posture, the ukes having just flown some distance away, why would he assume the posture of tenchinage?

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 312092)
Thus I would say it's a return to hara and 'the floating bridge' between heaven and earth.

How so?

Best.

David

Hellis 06-30-2012 01:45 PM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 312092)
I think he tripped on his Hakama.

Thus I would say it's a return to hara and 'the floating bridge' between heaven and earth.

.

Graham

Can you explain the above for a simple basics guy such as me :confused:

Henry Ellis
Co-author of `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/

graham christian 06-30-2012 01:59 PM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Quote:

David Orange wrote: (Post 312094)
That's what I thought.

"Resemblance," yes. But since there is usually no one near at the moment he takes that posture, the ukes having just flown some distance away, why would he assume the posture of tenchinage?

How so?

Best.

David

Well tenshinage is a technique. I used to be taught different explanations as to what to do depending on how good I got at it. Basically from leading ki down and up, in two directions, form centre. Then onto taking into account centre line. Then how it's taking the mind up and down ie: splitting the mind etc. Eventually it became opening up. Opening up the opponent through being willing to open up yourself. This led to more reality on operating from hara.

From hara you feel the yin and yang, the taking in infinitely and the expansion out.

Now sitting comfortanly and letting the body move with it your arms and hands may go out sideways as if welcoming the universe. However I find when I am focused foreward yet returning to hara the the arms do as you describe. The feeling is very similar if not the same as tenshinage. Thus I could say tenshinage is returning to basic posture or say it in some profound way.

That's my take on it.

Now if you want to see me doing it, which I find myself doing to different degrees and only more pronounced depending on the circumstances you can watch a video of mine. Not saying anything to do with anything else just that I tend to do it or similar to it naturally at times. (video: spirit of loving protection 2, from 2:35 onwards)

Peace.G.

Janet Rosen 06-30-2012 07:45 PM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 312092)
David. I would say there is a remarkable resemblance to how he returns to posture with arms as you say (sometimes) and tenshinage.
Thus I would say it's a return to hara and 'the floating bridge' between heaven and earth.

My teacher, the late Gayle Fillman, often ended throws in this position and while during the time I trained w/ her she never specifically instructed us to do so for that or any other reason, I know that the idea of the spiral and balance between heaven and earth was important to her.

graham christian 06-30-2012 10:06 PM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 312103)
My teacher, the late Gayle Fillman, often ended throws in this position and while during the time I trained w/ her she never specifically instructed us to do so for that or any other reason, I know that the idea of the spiral and balance between heaven and earth was important to her.

Interesting. I have never told or mentioned that anyone else should do it. In fact I never even put any significance on myself doing it. Only David mentioning it like he did above made me wonder if I had seen anyone else do it.

Peace.G.

DH 07-01-2012 09:07 AM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 312096)
Well tenshinage is a technique. I used to be taught different explanations as to what to do depending on how good I got at it. Basically from leading ki down and up, in two directions, form centre. Then onto taking into account centre line. Then how it's taking the mind up and down ie: splitting the mind etc. Eventually it became opening up. Opening up the opponent through being willing to open up yourself. This led to more reality on operating from hara.

From hara you feel the yin and yang, the taking in infinitely and the expansion out.

Now sitting comfortanly and letting the body move with it your arms and hands may go out sideways as if welcoming the universe. However I find when I am focused foreward yet returning to hara the the arms do as you describe. The feeling is very similar if not the same as tenshinage. Thus I could say tenshinage is returning to basic posture or say it in some profound way.

That's my take on it.

Now if you want to see me doing it, which I find myself doing to different degrees and only more pronounced depending on the circumstances you can watch a video of mine. Not saying anything to do with anything else just that I tend to do it or similar to it naturally at times. (video: spirit of loving protection 2, from 2:35 onwards)

Peace.G.

Graham moving
Again you use your own video as evidence to support your theories.
I have never seen you move in accordance with the the things you say you can do, nor have you demonstrated anything on film that is cogent with your writing. No one who is actually expressing in/yo would move the way you do. In fact their structure would not allow them to move the way you move. It is almost impossible to understand what In/Yo is, and moving from center as you yourself claim to know and do...and then move the way you do. I would have to completely take my structure apart in order to move and respond like you.

I never expected you to wade in with yet another reference of how you move like Ueshiba!! :rolleyes:
Comparing yourself to Ueshiba, particularly in regards to this aspect of his training and what it really means is strikingly divergent from any real understanding of what Ueshiba is doing and demonstrating.
Oh well.
Dan

DH 07-01-2012 09:28 AM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
In accordance with Juns request; it might be easier to not to talk about the people behind the posts if you stopped referring to videos of yourself and comparing your movements to the discussions we are having about Ueshiba. ;)
Dan

graham christian 07-01-2012 10:38 AM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 312120)
Graham moving
Again you use your own video as evidence to support your theories.
I have never seen you move in accordance with the the things you say you can do, nor have you demonstrated anything on film that is cogent with your writing. No one who is actually expressing in/yo would move the way you do. In fact their structure would not allow them to move the way you move. It is almost impossible to understand what In/Yo is, and moving from center as you yourself claim to know and do...and then move the way you do. I would have to completely take my structure apart in order to move and respond like you.

I never expected you to wade in with yet another reference of how you move like Ueshiba!! :rolleyes:
Comparing yourself to Ueshiba, particularly in regards to this aspect of his training and what it really means is strikingly divergent from any real understanding of what Ueshiba is doing and demonstrating.
Oh well.
Dan

The question was specific. The answer was specific. I do, or rather find myself doing, that specific thing asked about.

It happens in a thing called Aikido when I do it. It's not an I/P thing by the looks of it according to you. I'm glad it isn't.

It's actually to do with the sword as well.

Peace.G.

DH 07-01-2012 11:15 AM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 312125)
The question was specific. The answer was specific. I do, or rather find myself doing, that specific thing asked about.

It happens in a thing called Aikido when I do it. It's not an I/P thing by the looks of it according to you. I'm glad it isn't.

It's actually to do with the sword as well.

Peace.G.

I do
I do
I do
Talk about UESHIBA!!!
and not you
That way ...we.... don't continually talk about the.... people..... behind the posts.

Good grief man, is any of this sinking in?
Dan

graham christian 07-01-2012 11:29 AM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 312126)
I do
I do
I do
Talk about UESHIBA!!!
and not you
That way ...we.... don't continually talk about the.... people..... behind the posts.

Good grief man, is any of this sinking in?
Dan

Dan. Obviously the context is not sinking in for you my friend. Post 5 was about Ueshiba. Then I'm asked how I come to that conclusion.

Through my own experience is the answer. Now, I can't use you as an example can I. I can't think of anyone else doing it off hand.

Now, Janet remebers someone who did it too.

It's called discussing a point raised by the posted video. I actually found that point interesting as I've never really put any emphasis on it.

I must admit I haven't seen anyone do the little hop though. Now that was bouyant!

Peace.G.

Stephen Nichol 07-01-2012 10:12 PM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
... I tripped on a Hakama once... :uch:

Yeah, I am pretty sure that does not mean I am 'doing it like Ueshiba' either though... ;)

:D

DH 07-01-2012 11:17 PM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Quote:

Stephen Nichol wrote: (Post 312145)
... I tripped on a Hakama once... :uch:
Yeah, I am pretty sure that does not mean I am 'doing it like Ueshiba' either though... ;)
:D

+1
There is no tighter trap....then self deceit. Nothing more final than self-delusion. It cannot be helped.
Arguing as the true vision, they are ones who do not see, and will never know.

Dan

phitruong 07-02-2012 07:02 AM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Quote:

Stephen Nichol wrote: (Post 312145)
... I tripped on a Hakama once... :uch:

Yeah, I am pretty sure that does not mean I am 'doing it like Ueshiba' either though... ;)

:D

i got you beat. i had tripped on my own two feet many times; thus, i had elevated myself the "best" status. :)

Dave Gallagher 07-02-2012 07:10 AM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Quite a few times both in and out of the dojo I have tripped for no reason at all. Does this mean that I should be called O Dave?

gregstec 07-02-2012 07:26 AM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 312128)
Dan. Obviously the context is not sinking in for you my friend. Post 5 was about Ueshiba. Then I'm asked how I come to that conclusion.

Through my own experience is the answer. Now, I can't use you as an example can I. I can't think of anyone else doing it off hand.

Now, Janet remebers someone who did it too.

It's called discussing a point raised by the posted video. I actually found that point interesting as I've never really put any emphasis on it.

I must admit I haven't seen anyone do the little hop though. Now that was bouyant!


Peace.G.

Tohei used to hop and skip all the time.....

Greg

phitruong 07-02-2012 07:27 AM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Quote:

Dave Gallagher wrote: (Post 312151)
Does this mean that I should be called O Dave?

nope. that reserved for those intimate private moments with your significant other. :D

gregstec 07-02-2012 07:28 AM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 312073)
I remember Dave Lowry once writing that he has never trained with a Menkyo or high level teacher who did not make at least one error during training. I would agree with that assessment.

Here is the old man himself falling down
Of course it doesn't mean anything, but someone brought it up on my forum. Mentioning that they hadn't seen it before. I hadn't seen it before either.
Dan

Sure you have; it was just hidden in plain sight :D

greg

Dave Gallagher 07-02-2012 08:05 AM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Quote from Phi Truong:
"nope. that reserved for those intimate private moments with your significant other"

.....HAAAAAAAAAAA!! Good one.

Gorgeous George 07-02-2012 09:23 AM

Re: It happens to the best of them
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 312120)

I feel so embarrassed: not just for the guy taking 'ukemi', but for the people who are there watching; what a complete waste of time for everybody, to indulge one man's self-delusion.
There is no aikido here, whatsoever - just indulgence of pretence.

Try putting in the hard work - rather than just prancing about, and claiming you have the ability which others have actually had to earn.


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