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-   -   Who is training IS and why still? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21435)

Jeremy Hulley 06-21-2012 11:25 AM

Who is training IS and why still?
 
So I'm curious:

Who is out there training IS/IP?

Why are you still training IS/IP and what impact has it had on your training?

I'm still working on it even after a frustrating two days with Dan this week. That would be my frustration with myself..

I'm still working it because even at my low level I'm seeing clear benefits in my training including increase stability and more power with much less effort.

If I open my body correctly and express ten chi jin I am already under my opponent. This is true with weapons and with empty hand.

Thanks for your thoughts
Jeremy

Marc Abrams 06-21-2012 11:46 AM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
Quote:

Jeremy Hulley wrote: (Post 311306)
So I'm curious:

Who is out there training IS/IP?

Why are you still training IS/IP and what impact has it had on your training?

I'm still working on it even after a frustrating two days with Dan this week. That would be my frustration with myself..

I'm still working it because even at my low level I'm seeing clear benefits in my training including increase stability and more power with much less effort.

If I open my body correctly and express ten chi jin I am already under my opponent. This is true with weapons and with empty hand.

Thanks for your thoughts
Jeremy

Jeremy:

July 2010 (I think) was when I first had the opportunity to train with Dan Harden. I work on this stuff every day, always integrating it in how I train and teach the stuff I do. The changes have been remarkable in the advances that I am making. The other remarkable thing is how it helps me better understand what my other teachers are really doing so that I can actually make better use of their teachings! The really good news is I STILL SUCK :D :D :D ! and don't blame Dan.....

Keep up the hard work, the changes will be subtle and profound!

Regards,

Marc Abrams

woudew 06-21-2012 12:01 PM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
We are training IP/IS and aiki.

Actually it is more or less all we do nowadays. But then again we are lucky to have the solo exercises from Shirata Sensei (they are called Tan doku dosa by the Way) and these exercise are built to train IP/IS and aiki.

I totally sympathize with you on the frustration part. How recognizable.

chillzATL 06-21-2012 12:29 PM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
I am.

I enjoy it. It's neat to use your body that way and feel what's going on in my body on that level, both on and off the mat. I can't see myself ever going back to using my body the old way again. For one, it's practically fixed back problems that I've had since I was a teenager.

It's increased the depth and understanding of what I'm doing aikido-wise tremendously. I'm definitely more stable, harder to move, more connected and stronger when doing aikido than before, for whatever that's worth. It's made me, at times, desire a greater level of active resistance, just to see how well I can hold it together, but I accept that this level is not what aikido is about. On the other side it's almost completely ruined by view of techniques or at least the endless repetition of techniques and the whole "your hand goes here, your foot goes there" way of doing them, if that makes sense.

ChrisMoses 06-21-2012 01:07 PM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
Quote:

Jeremy Hulley wrote: (Post 311306)
So I'm curious:

Who is out there training IS/IP?

Why are you still training IS/IP and what impact has it had on your training?

If I stopped now, I'd NEVER throw you... :drool:

Jeremy Hulley 06-21-2012 01:10 PM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
Quote:

Christian Moses wrote: (Post 311323)
If I stopped now, I'd NEVER throw you... :drool:

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Mary Eastland 06-21-2012 03:10 PM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
I am not sure how you are defining IS/IP. Our training has always been and will continue to be dedicated to developing Ki.

ChrisMoses 06-21-2012 03:34 PM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 311335)
I am not sure how you are defining IS/IP. Our training has always been and will continue to be dedicated to developing Ki.

Dan/Ark/Mike/SamChin/etc..

Not talking about Aikido necessarily, certainly not talking about the 'traditional' methods used by 99% of Aikido groups.

mathewjgano 06-21-2012 04:48 PM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
To whatever extent I've been able to work on it, I am doing so...which I guess is obvious in retrospect, lol. I'm trying.

...Oops; why?
I want to maximize my understanding of how the body works. I want to have as full an understanding of myself as possible so I may be the best I can be.

Steve Sakahara 06-21-2012 05:13 PM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
To throw people I couldn't throw before while making it difficult for them to throw me. Without training techniques.

To get stronger, healthier and faster as I get older. Right Gary? No more back issues here either.

To share with some very smart and dedicated people who go out of their way to help you get better.

To train with people personally and globally via the internet who open their minds and decide from hands on experience the value this stuff. There's a depth of forging you can recognize and acknowledge. There is a filtering process.

To learn something so simple in concept, yet so damn hard to learn. Failure is a constant. And I'm not talking about a blown technique. I'm talking about a second by second failure within solo training. Day, after day, after day...

To look at my own crap with depth, perseverance, forgiveness and wisdom. It's not about dancing and philosophical discussion. See above.

To see wtf in uke.

To have some hope of throwing Jeremy and Chris. Did I mention to get sneakier? :D

gregstec 06-21-2012 06:34 PM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 311335)
I am not sure how you are defining IS/IP. Our training has always been and will continue to be dedicated to developing Ki.

Although the understanding and use of ki is integral to effective development of IS/IP, it is not the only thing required to develop IS/IP. Actually, ki is just part of the process that leads all movement; external as well as internal. In IS/IP development the conscious leading of ki with your intent is a core part of re-mapping the normal external movements to internal movements for a given response.

Greg

Gary David 06-21-2012 06:47 PM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
Quote:

Steve Sakahara wrote: (Post 311357)

To get stronger, healthier and faster as I get older. Right Gary?

Well Steve I have found out in the past few weeks that as I have grown older I have become twisted, that I miss the point or points, I lack understanding, I am selfish, I am all ego and a bunch other things........ to wit the 38 years I have spent has all been for nothing..whistling in dark or pi&xing in the wind......and I run with a bad crowd.........and and I don't have a clue about love...local, personal or universal.....

Still.... I think I will just keep moving along........

As for the training I'll just keep trying to incorporate what we have been shown into my movements in daily life.....it is working for me. I'll include what I can into what I help to pass on to the folks that have given me respect and to whom I return that respect.

keep after it...

Gary

Anthony Loeppert 06-21-2012 07:10 PM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
Quote:

Gary Welborn wrote: (Post 311371)

As for the training I'll just keep trying to incorporate what we have been shown into my movements in daily life.....it is working for me. I'll include what I can into what I help to pass on to the folks that have given me respect and to whom I return that respect.

keep after it...

Gary

Dear sir,
Having read several of your posts scattered across the site, I'm ready to sign up for your newsletter.
Perhaps our paths will cross some time as San Diego isn't so far from long beach.

Take care,
Anthony

Carsten Möllering 06-22-2012 03:24 AM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 311335)
Our training has always been and will continue to be dedicated to developing Ki.

Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 311370)
... understanding and use of ki is integral to effective development of IS/IP ...

Even before I learned about IS in the way "Dan/Ark/Mike/SamChin/etc.." practice it, I experienced a difference not only in the understanding of the term Ki/ki/qi but also in the practical "use" of the phenomenon, a difference between people stemming from the Shin shin toitsu do of Tohei sensei and people stemming from chinese arts.
The "chinese" usage of the word was much more nuanced, differentiated. And regarding the "practice of qi" it was much more concrete, definite.
(This last way of understanding and "using" ki was what shaped my personal practice more than the other. And I think that was helpfull to stumble into Dan's way of internal training. For it does fit to what I learned "around" Tissier or "near" Endo or with my teacher here and his a step further on that way.)

I am really not sure, wether my personal experiences are to generalize. But when talking with friends, who do Ki-Aikido, about "ki" we often get to a point where we realize that what we call "ki" is something different. One time I even had to accept the answer that what is called "qi" in my books about qi gong is something fundamentally different from what is called "Ki" in Toheis work. Also it is clear for my friends that the "one point" is clearly not the seika tanden. For the one point can be outside of teh body. e.g. when doing falls. The seika tanden on the other hand has to be inside of the body.

Again: I don't know how my experiences fit to yours.

But what do you think: Is it possible that we don't only talk about different ways to "deal with" Ki/ki/qi, but that we understand this phenomenon itself in a fundamentally different way?

gregstec 06-22-2012 07:30 AM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 311421)
Even before I learned about IS in the way "Dan/Ark/Mike/SamChin/etc.." practice it, I experienced a difference not only in the understanding of the term Ki/ki/qi but also in the practical "use" of the phenomenon, a difference between people stemming from the Shin shin toitsu do of Tohei sensei and people stemming from chinese arts.
The "chinese" usage of the word was much more nuanced, differentiated. And regarding the "practice of qi" it was much more concrete, definite.
(This last way of understanding and "using" ki was what shaped my personal practice more than the other. And I think that was helpfull to stumble into Dan's way of internal training. For it does fit to what I learned "around" Tissier or "near" Endo or with my teacher here and his a step further on that way.)

I am really not sure, wether my personal experiences are to generalize. But when talking with friends, who do Ki-Aikido, about "ki" we often get to a point where we realize that what we call "ki" is something different. One time I even had to accept the answer that what is called "qi" in my books about qi gong is something fundamentally different from what is called "Ki" in Toheis work. Also it is clear for my friends that the "one point" is clearly not the seika tanden. For the one point can be outside of teh body. e.g. when doing falls. The seika tanden on the other hand has to be inside of the body.

Again: I don't know how my experiences fit to yours.

But what do you think: Is it possible that we don't only talk about different ways to "deal with" Ki/ki/qi, but that we understand this phenomenon itself in a fundamentally different way?

Tohei's ki is no different than the Chinese qi - the difference lies in the misunderstanding of some of those that practice each.

My initial Aikido background is KI- Society and I see them as the same - however, not all applications of the use of ki are the same - there are medical applications and martial applications - and even in those subsets, there are variances; as in Ueshiba and Tohei, both used ki in their IS/IP development, but not in the same way.

Greg

phitruong 06-22-2012 07:58 AM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 311428)
Tohei's ki is no different than the Chinese qi - the difference lies in the misunderstanding of some of those that practice each.

My initial Aikido background is KI- Society and I see them as the same - however, not all applications of the use of ki are the same - there are medical applications and martial applications - and even in those subsets, there are variances; as in Ueshiba and Tohei, both used ki in their IS/IP development, but not in the same way.

Greg

sheesh Greg! is that the initial salvo of the next KI war? :)

as for IS training, after my encountered with some of the aforementioned IS deviants, i have been working on how their approaches are different, alike, complement, and/or oppose. some i figured out, some i have not. it's interesting and curiosity is my middle name (actually it's donuts and coffee). whenever i get opportunity i jump at the chance to learn new and unusual stuffs, IS/IP that is. oh yeah! and my goal is to acquire great power to satisfy the khan in me that wants to rule the world. :D

gregstec 06-22-2012 09:15 AM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 311429)
sheesh Greg! is that the initial salvo of the next KI war? :)

Now that's a thought - things have been pretty dull around here lately - nothing like a good Ki war to stir things up :D

Greg

graham christian 06-22-2012 02:18 PM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 311428)
Tohei's ki is no different than the Chinese qi - the difference lies in the misunderstanding of some of those that practice each.

My initial Aikido background is KI- Society and I see them as the same - however, not all applications of the use of ki are the same - there are medical applications and martial applications - and even in those subsets, there are variances; as in Ueshiba and Tohei, both used ki in their IS/IP development, but not in the same way.

Greg

Sorry Greg old mate that's wrong. Blah, blah, blah, blah,...............:)

Just joking.....

Peace.G.

gregstec 06-22-2012 04:10 PM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 311465)
Sorry Greg old mate that's wrong. Blah, blah, blah, blah,...............:)

Just joking.....

Peace.G.

Darn, there goes the neighborhood... :D

Greg

Chris Li 06-23-2012 11:56 AM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
Quote:

Jeremy Hulley wrote: (Post 311306)
So I'm curious:

Who is out there training IS/IP?

Why are you still training IS/IP and what impact has it had on your training?

I'm still working on it even after a frustrating two days with Dan this week. That would be my frustration with myself..

I'm still working it because even at my low level I'm seeing clear benefits in my training including increase stability and more power with much less effort.

If I open my body correctly and express ten chi jin I am already under my opponent. This is true with weapons and with empty hand.

Thanks for your thoughts
Jeremy

Still around ;) it does take awhile...

Of course, there are a number of things that are immediately useful, but I'd say a year to a year and a half for anything to even begin to manifest into conventional Aikido technique. It just takes time to condition the basic body usage.

OTOH, you can't argue with the results :D

Interestingly, we've been finding that new folks with no previous experience actually progress much more quickly - fewer years of bad habits to work through, I guess.

Best,

Chris

Dave de Vos 06-23-2012 12:48 PM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
I started in spring 2011 and I have visited three of Dan's seminars up to now.

I feel the effect of internal training on my body increasing slowly. I think the impact on my aikido training is still minor, though I feel my stability has increased. I started aikido just a little earlier, in summer 2010, so I'm not sure how much of my progress in aikido is due to internal training and not aikido training.

I continue solo training because I'm curious for the effects in the long term. I should train more though, I only train a couple of hours a week.

Shadowfax 06-23-2012 01:14 PM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
Quote:

Who is out there training IS/IP?
While not as diligently as many here I have been working on incorporating the things I have learned from Mark Murray on the subject on some of his visits to the dojo regarding IS/IP.

Quote:

Why are you still training IS/IP
Because I don't believe it is possible to have too many tools in one's toolbox. And quite honestly because it is rather fascinating.

Quote:

and what impact has it had on your training?
Nothing huge really as of yet. (I have not been training that long after all) But I have noticed that I more and more often will automatically adjust so that I am stable in some rather odd positions where one would typically be out of balance. I am much more aware of when my body is aligned and integrated and when it is not a make adjustments now without needing to think about it too much.

Nicholas Eschenbruch 06-24-2012 03:05 AM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
Quote:

Jeremy Hulley wrote: (Post 311306)
Who is out there training IS/IP?

Why are you still training IS/IP and what impact has it had on your training?

For me, everything Jason (who I have never met...) said:

Quote:

I enjoy it. It's neat to use your body that way and feel what's going on in my body on that level, both on and off the mat. I can't see myself ever going back to using my body the old way again. For one, it's practically fixed back problems that I've had since I was a teenager.

It's increased the depth and understanding of what I'm doing aikido-wise tremendously. I'm definitely more stable, harder to move, more connected and stronger when doing aikido than before, for whatever that's worth. It's made me, at times, desire a greater level of active resistance, just to see how well I can hold it together, but I accept that this level is not what aikido is about. On the other side it's almost completely ruined by view of techniques or at least the endless repetition of techniques and the whole "your hand goes here, your foot goes there" way of doing them, if that makes sense.
Plus I find it sort of meditative: in order even to start doing Dan's stuff in a meaningful way, I need to focus; I need to take responsibility; I need to "believe", in a couple of interesting ways. Shut out the external and internal noise and go deep. It can be a lot more profound than it seems on the web, I find.

chillzATL 06-24-2012 09:49 AM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 311515)
Interestingly, we've been finding that new folks with no previous experience actually progress much more quickly - fewer years of bad habits to work through, I guess.

Best,

Chris

I think that when you explain things in terms of feeling rather than strictly doing a movement and then give them separate ways to feel what they should be feeling in the technique, people get it more quickly. I've fixed more problems by stopping someone and pushing/pulling on them to get them to feel they should be feeling than I ever did by saying "put your hand here, move your foot like this, twist your hips here". The less baggage the better!

DH 06-24-2012 11:16 AM

Re: Who is training IS and why still?
 
If you examine Aiki (do) it....is..... Internal skills and spiral movement, and everything else people talk about is just window dressing. I think people are making far, far, too much of the after effects of IP/aki (meaning-waza). The stunning, and powerful aspects of the art are in the changed body and it's use. If you take away the waza, your going to end up internally moving the same way and be powerful and motivating no matter what you do. Aiki(do) simply happens when a person possess aiki. I think the vast majority of those in the art have no aiki and therefore use technique as a substitute for their lack of understanding.

Weirdly...once you understand what Ueshiba was doing and you train your body that way...every, single external waza in Aikido is built on it. Yet take away the IP/aiki and you get a not too impressive jujutsu art. This explains the profound inability of Aikido Shihan to be able to do anything to someone who actually has IP/Aiki. Ueshiba's Aikido was simply internal skills, and there is simply nothing else in Budo that compares with good IP/aiki.
Dan


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