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-   -   Randori...we don't do enough of it (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21422)

Mario Tobias 06-16-2012 03:31 AM

Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
I got clobbered in randori today...My thoughts are that yes, someone can be wearing a brown/blackbelt but may still be 6th kyu when it comes to performing randori. The thing with randori is that we don't do enough of it. Just like to know how you tackled a similar problem if you've encountered it.

phitruong 06-16-2012 06:59 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Mario Tobias wrote: (Post 311006)
I got clobbered in randori today...My thoughts are that yes, someone can be wearing a brown/blackbelt but may still be 6th kyu when it comes to performing randori. The thing with randori is that we don't do enough of it. Just like to know how you tackled a similar problem if you've encountered it.

Attend George Ledyard randori seminar. at the minimum, get the DVD. lots of good info there, but nothing like hand-on instruction.

PeterR 06-16-2012 08:01 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Randori - grasping order out of chaos.

DVD's, seminars? - don't buy it. The only way to improve is to do lots of it against a variety of people.

Develop what the French call sangfroid.

Hellis 06-16-2012 08:17 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 311015)
Randori -

DVD's, seminars? - don't buy it. The only way to improve is to do lots of it against a variety of people.
.

I would agree here. Train with as many students as you can, if there is a student that is difficult/awkward - that is the guy you need to train with.

Henry Ellis
Co-author of `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Dan Rubin 06-16-2012 09:20 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Be advised that George's randori DVD isn't really a DVD. It's a PowerPoint presentation on a compact disc. Won't work on a Mac.

Mary Eastland 06-16-2012 09:27 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Randori is the most fun. Relax and enjoy...the more you can stay out of your head the better it feels and the better you will do.

Adam Huss 06-16-2012 11:34 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
I find this a commonality as well. Its a difficult exercise to squeeze into a short class period so I think it gets glossed over a lot. It can be tricky to find enough qualified uke who don't mind revving it up some. Also, only one person can be nage at a time...hence the extra time consumption. Still, its a great equalizer. Often I've witnessed shinsa where the testing candidate displays excellent technique with his parters in one on one situations (especially predetermined uke), but start to fall apart, or at the very least display a noticeable dichotomy in skill, when it comes to randori (usually, in tests I've seen...the candidate has known uke for all requirements but whomever gets there first is uke in randori...especially when your talking 5+ person randori). It definitely is one of those things that could be practiced more. I recently had a discussion about this with my teacher.

ChrisHein 06-16-2012 12:16 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 311015)
Randori -The only way to improve is to do lots of it against a variety of people.

If this were to become an Aikido mantra, we'd all be the better for it.

Adam Huss 06-16-2012 01:54 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 311027)
If this were to become an Aikido mantra, we'd all be the better for it.

True story.

Rob Watson 06-16-2012 02:27 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
We do randori after every class ... takes more than regular practice to get good at randori.

grondahl 06-16-2012 04:12 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Robert M Watson Jr wrote: (Post 311036)
We do randori after every class ... takes more than regular practice to get good at randori.

My understanding from friends that have been uchi deshi at San Leandro is that you also do periods of randori-centered practice?

Hendricks sensei has a pretty structured way of teaching randori (my experience from the randori-focused seminars with her in Sweden that I´ve attended) that seems to have some similarities to George Ledyards methodology.

Edit:
So when you do randori after class, you probably have a pretty keen grasp on what you are trying to accomplish. My experience is that that is not at all that common.

Kevin Leavitt 06-16-2012 04:22 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Yeah, Randori is like that. I agree, most dojos need to do more. However, with the teaching methodologies employed in aikido at the range it typically is trained at....doing more randori isn't necessarily going to help a whole lot until you get the basics down. Hence, why you probably don't see much of it.

The problem is that, from an Aikido perspective, once it fails, you end up in the clinch, then it enters into a whole nother realm or spectrum of jiu jitsu training. Most dojos typically will break it up at that point and reset...then reach the conclusion that it is contrary or harmful to the things they are trying to train. that may or may not be true, but it depends on what you are training.

Mary Eastland 06-16-2012 04:43 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Why would you break it up....just keep moving until you get out.

Chris Parkerson 06-16-2012 05:53 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 311044)
Yeah, Randori is like that. I agree, most dojos need to do more. However, with the teaching methodologies employed in aikido at the range it typically is trained at....doing more randori isn't necessarily going to help a whole lot until you get the basics down. Hence, why you probably don't see much of it.

The problem is that, from an Aikido perspective, once it fails, you end up in the clinch, then it enters into a whole nother realm or spectrum of jiu jitsu training. Most dojos typically will break it up at that point and reset...then reach the conclusion that it is contrary or harmful to the things they are trying to train. that may or may not be true, but it depends on what you are training.

I have always wondered why we insist that only one aspect of Jitsu is allowed in rondori. In a battle, I bring a rifle, pistol and hand grenade. Why not allow aiki-no-jitsu, aikijujitsu, and Jujitsu in rondori?

Just me thinking out loud (and of course doing it as such with my friends and training partners)....

Chris

Dave Gallagher 06-16-2012 09:35 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
The problem I have with randori is when it's done poorly at a public demo. It is in my opinion the main reason that some people watching think that Aikido is fake.
Nage drops down on all fours while uke is not even close enough yet and uke still rolls over, nage touches the shoulder of an uke who goes flying etc etc.

Kevin Leavitt 06-17-2012 04:12 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 311045)
Why would you break it up....just keep moving until you get out.

If it has structure and some degree of the participants doing things correctly then by all means. IME though, in Aikido, many don't have a clue what to do at this phase and it becomes a brawl with no purpose.

I'm an advocate of the full spectrum of rqndori and of training jiu jitsu throughout the entite spectrum. Problem is that very few people or schools do this.

No worries, just pointing out why I feel that many schools don't do more randori. It is hard to keep it confined to the one spectrum or area you train on.

Shadowfax 06-17-2012 09:29 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Maybe you don't do enough of it. Where I train we do randori drills pretty frequently.

Gorgeous George 06-17-2012 11:02 AM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 311045)
Why would you break it up....just keep moving until you get out.

I'd imagine if you kept going, and waited until you 'got out', you'd be overwhelmed by the other attackers - or if the person who has hold of you is inclined, you'd get taken down/thrown yourself.

This is why I have become disillusioned with aikido, at present: it's entirely theoretical - which I understand - and there is no provision made for when things don't go perfectly to plan: i.e., real-life.

Can you not use 'aiki' through other techniques - in other situations?
I really would like to see a new akido training methodology emerge, as the old one - as Jigoro Kano said - is severely lacking.

Kevin Leavitt 06-17-2012 03:08 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Hey Graham, understand where you are. Been there myself. I am finding ways to integrate aikido principles in my training. Note I said principles. I don't li it myself to particular methodologies. A lot of the IS guys have been very helpful.

Rob Watson 06-17-2012 03:32 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Peter Gröndahl wrote: (Post 311041)
Edit:
So when you do randori after class, you probably have a pretty keen grasp on what you are trying to accomplish. My experience is that that is not at all that common.

Bad writing on my part. I mean't as a part of class towards the very end we engage in randori practice as a part of the regular class time. Some sessions are more intensively dedicated to randori - depends on who is there and what they need working on.

PeterR 06-17-2012 05:47 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
This really begs the question.

How important do you see randori training in the context of over-all Aikido?

I've posted a lot about my opinion but before I do it again I am really interested in general opinions.

Anthony Loeppert 06-17-2012 06:04 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Graham Jenkins wrote: (Post 311080)
I'd imagine if you kept going, and waited until you 'got out', you'd be overwhelmed by the other attackers - or if the person who has hold of you is inclined, you'd get taken down/thrown yourself.

No, I think the training philosophy merely transcends reality. You just wait until you get out. Whether that be the same night or everyone just agrees to continue the next session where they left off.

If trouble actually occurs, uke was not whispering loud enough to shitie (nage) to hear correctly, right Mary?
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...hlight=whisper

Regards,
Anthony

Chris Parkerson 06-17-2012 06:47 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Has anyone trained Randori with "exotic" weapons?
One of the great gifts of Aikido is multiple attacker Randori.
In Kenpo we also trained the "mass attack" regularly and it was the final gift to a student who was testing for a belt promotion.

But maii changes when knives are being thrown and chain-type weapons are presented rather than Katana and clubs. And strategies must change for the defender when these types of attacks include several people.

Once experiencing this, try adapting Randori to a disciplined v shaped Kali formation where the point man is throwing weapons and his flanks are feeding him more knives to throw. Or try Randori against a swat-style building entry formation, making your throws by gripping their long arms and pistols. Try using the first uke as a shield from lines of fire, as a ballistic mass being thrown into the next person who is pointing his front sight toward you.

The Creativity is endless once you break out of the anachronistic training of an ancient pattern of Budo.

Cheers,

Chris

Anthony Loeppert 06-17-2012 07:01 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Chris Parkerson wrote: (Post 311087)
Has anyone trained Randori with "exotic" weapons?

Not me.

Quote:

Chris Parkerson wrote:
But maii changes when knives are being thrown and chain-type weapons are presented rather than Katana and clubs. And strategies must change for the defender when these types of attacks include several people.

While perhaps technically true, what is the implication on applications of today? How often is a katana encountered? Chain weapons? Probably not many death by morningstar... Just a few less than died by throwing knife I'd guess...

though I'm not well versed in the nuance between someone throwing objects vs. slicing and blunt trauma instruments.

phitruong 06-17-2012 08:10 PM

Re: Randori...we don't do enough of it
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 311015)
Randori - grasping order out of chaos.

DVD's, seminars? - don't buy it. The only way to improve is to do lots of it against a variety of people.

Develop what the French call sangfroid.

i don't think so. you can do 10,000 times of wrong things. what you will be good at is doing wrong things very well. there are lots of thing to consider in randori and you need to structure your training for it. first, consider the attackers. most attackers don't know how to attack in group. so you need to teach folks, ukes, how to synchronize their attacks so they can come at different angles and different levels, at the same time or close to it, so they don't let up the pressure on the nage. they need to learn strategies on how to corner nage. on the nage side, you need to understand spacing and timing in a group dynamics, which is quite a bit different than one on one. there are things you should do and shouldn't do. there are tactics and strategies to employ. folks tend to not know what they don't know until they got dog piled.


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