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-   -   Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21359)

Chris Parkerson 05-27-2012 08:58 PM

Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
Last week, I mentioned that using a hammer would be a good test of power. Two responses were of great interest.

1. Dan Harden stated, "That is total nonsense and makes a mockery of thousands of years of martial knowledge."

2. Howard Popkin respectfully disagreed with me.

I suspect all the misunderstanding has to do with the suchness of language; i.e. its limits, how we so often project what we think others mean, and perhaps even how our "Pain Body" (history of painful emotional experiences) may even skew what we think the other fellow means.

Then, a couple of days ago I found this YoutTube of Okamoto's (Roppokai). It is in Japanese, and I do not speak Japanese, but the commentator appears to be stating the exact physical principles my example of "the hammer" was referring to at 4:20. The hammer strikes when you sequencially relax your muscle, have correct posture, and uke (or a nail or a large rock) is positioned well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHh_8uQPD5E

Personally, I hammer all day long like this without undue strain. I learned it from doing men and kesa cuts with my bokken.

Other simple (6th grade physics) mechanics thaqt I have trained as foundational principles in my aiki art are also presented on this clip as follows:.

1. 00.30 Raising the center of gravity
2. 4:20 Hammer dropping
3. 5:40 Whole body dropping (comes immediately before hammer dropping) allowing gravity to do its work.
4. 7:20 (Long Leverage) the longer the leverage (move from the bottom of your feet once you connect with uke's center of gravity) you can bypass uke's strength. This is the essence of a good float. I often name it "The law of similars". If I move from my wrist, I only collect your wrist. If I move from my elbow, I collect your elbow. If I move from my soulder, I collect your shoulder. If I move from the bottom of my feet, I collect your whole body.

Oh well, I hope that I sheds some light on this "hammer thing". Irencis is my goal, not polemics.

Puha

Chris

Abasan 05-28-2012 01:40 AM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
Interesting. I've never heard of anyone explaining it quite that way especially with the float. But that's a great way to open your eyes to this practise I think.

Chris Li 05-28-2012 03:11 AM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
Quote:

Chris Parkerson wrote: (Post 309733)

Then, a couple of days ago I found this YoutTube of Okamoto's (Roppokai). It is in Japanese, and I do not speak Japanese, but the commentator appears to be stating the exact physical principles my example of "the hammer" was referring to at 4:20. The hammer strikes when you sequencially relax your muscle, have correct posture, and uke (or a nail or a large rock) is positioned well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHh_8uQPD5E

Without getting into the technical argument, the video is not by the Roppokai. Takaoka Hideo is a martial arts researcher who has published a lot of books in Japan on these kind of subjects. I've read one of them, and wasn't that impressed, although it was fully buzzword compliant. :D

Best,

Chris

DH 05-28-2012 05:55 AM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
Quote:

Chris Parkerson wrote: (Post 309733)
Last week, I mentioned that using a hammer would be a good test of power. Two responses were of great interest.
1. Dan Harden stated, "That is total nonsense and makes a mockery of thousands of years of martial knowledge."
2. Howard Popkin respectfully disagreed with me.
I suspect all the misunderstanding has to do with the suchness of language; i.e. its limits, how we so often project what we think others mean, and perhaps even how our "Pain Body" (history of painful emotional experiences) may even skew what we think the other fellow means.

Chris
If you are going to quote me, then at least quote yourself accurately.
You did not say "Hammering was a good test of power"...you said this:
___________________________
Quote:

Chris Parkerson wrote:
Take a hammer and pound a large nail into wood with one or two strokes.
Every principle of efficiency in body mechanics is either there or it isn't.
And you can see the immediate results coming out of your stroke.
To which I stated
"That is total nonsense and makes a mockery of thousands of years of martial knowledge."
Dan
___________________________

I grew up among a family of Contractors and weightlifters Chris. I could tap a 16d nail and drive it in with one stroke. I wouldn't give you a nickle for "all that contains"...in my martial arts. As for it containing every principle of efficiency in body mechanics.... Well, I guess I can only say that depends on what you know.

As for the rest of the post, I can only say shopping around the martial arts and "visiting this and that guy" and then going out and teaching: Okomoto does this, Kiyama does that, Angier does that is pretty popular, though not exactly a deep study of anything. Hideo is one of several Japanese examples, there are countless American ones. Not one of which has ever impressed me at all.
Dan
P.S. Discussions of Daito ryu belong in the Non Aikido section, not here. I know its popular but it's not "Daito's Roppokai... Daito ryu is a ryu.

Chris Parkerson 05-28-2012 06:32 AM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
Thanks for your response Dan.
For me, it was nice to see someone using simple physics and constructing models that were essentially the same ones I had constructed.

I also can use muscle to knock a large nail in with one stroke. Positioning and centripetal force seem to be the most important factors. But when I do it with relaxation, the feeling is much different. Therein is what I was trying to say - albeit poorly stated as you pointed out.

Learning that a sequential form of relaxation was a big eye opener for me. And testing it with a hammer was fun because I could immediately tell the difference. It made me trust the process.

Thanks for responding

Puha

Chris

Chris Parkerson 05-28-2012 03:34 PM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
Thanks Chris Li and Ahmad for your replies. I hope to meet you both on the mats someday so we can both talk and feel each other's training.

Be well,

Chris

Anthony Loeppert 05-28-2012 05:16 PM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
Quote:

Chris Parkerson wrote: (Post 309801)
Thanks Chris Li and Ahmad for your replies. I hope to meet you both on the mats someday so we can both talk and feel each other's training.

Be well,

Chris

Hope as in wish it to be or hope as in make it so? If the latter, please update this thread with the result.

Chris Parkerson 05-28-2012 05:38 PM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
I travel allot. I love to spend time on the Mats.
I am happy to join anyone who is sincere and kind.
Hit me up on a private massage.

Puha

Chris

Anthony Loeppert 05-28-2012 07:21 PM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
Quote:

Chris Parkerson wrote: (Post 309808)
I travel allot. I love to spend time on the Mats.
I am happy to join anyone who is sincere and kind.
Hit me up on a private massage.

Puha

Chris

Simply say wish it to be so, it is more straight forward.
Btw, what is puha?

Chris Parkerson 05-28-2012 09:58 PM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
Quote:

Anthony Loeppert wrote: (Post 309816)
Simply say wish it to be so, it is more straight forward.
Btw, what is puha?

I wish it to be so.

I also hope that you are sincere and kind.

Puha is a comanche term for individual internal power. It is a shamanistic blessing placed upon others by many spiritual leaders of the American Indian Church; a church founded by Quannah Parker, Commanche Chief who never lost a battle against the U.S. Army.

Puha,

Chris

Chris Parkerson 05-28-2012 10:01 PM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
Anthony,

I just noticed that you are in San Diego. I will be finishing a protection detail on or about June 9. I will likely go to visit John Clodig (Fallbrook) and Parker Linekin (Academy of the Martial Arts) in Mira Mesa. I may also look up a new dojo that an old buddy just opened in San Diego.

If any of these areas are easy for you to join us, please advise.

Puha,

Chris

Anthony Loeppert 05-28-2012 10:11 PM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
Quote:

Chris Parkerson wrote: (Post 309827)
Anthony,

I just noticed that you are in San Diego. I will be finishing a protection detail on or about June 9. I will likely go to visit John Clodig (Fallbrook) and Parker Linekin (Academy of the Martial Arts) in Mira Mesa. I may also look up a new dojo that an old buddy just opened in San Diego.

If any of these areas are easy for you to join us, please advise.

Puha,

Chris

Mira mesa especially... but any are possible; San Diego isn't so big :) As your plans become more concrete please let me know.
and as to the other message: "I also hope that you are sincere and kind."
I can only vouch for myself that I am sincere and hope (wish) others think I'm kind.

Chris Parkerson 05-28-2012 10:54 PM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
Quote:

Anthony Loeppert wrote: (Post 309831)
Mira mesa especially... but any are possible; San Diego isn't so big :) As your plans become more concrete please let me know.
and as to the other message: "I also hope that you are sincere and kind."
I can only vouch for myself that I am sincere and hope (wish) others think I'm kind.

So let's take this into a private venue. We shall stay in touch.

Namaste,

Chris

Michael Hackett 05-29-2012 08:40 PM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
Chris,

I just tried to PM you and found your message limit has topped out. When you have room, I have sent you an invitation to visit us when you are in San Diego.

Michael

Chris Parkerson 05-29-2012 08:53 PM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
Quote:

Michael Hackett wrote: (Post 309958)
Chris,

I just tried to PM you and found your message limit has topped out. When you have room, I have sent you an invitation to visit us when you are in San Diego.

Michael

Try now

Abasan 05-30-2012 06:49 AM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
Sure Chris, if I ever decide to brave the murky waters of TSA I'll try to plan for Ohio...

HL1978 05-30-2012 07:38 AM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
Chris,

You can hit all manner of objects while being relaxed as well as using the hips and a weight drop. Its pretty "heavy" compared to when people muscle things, but it isn't the same thing as IS/IP etc. It is probably the best one can use when using "external" strength, and shouldn't be taken lightly, but has short comings compared to the stuff others are talking about.

Chris Parkerson 05-30-2012 09:09 AM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
Quote:

Ahmad Abas wrote: (Post 309977)
Sure Chris, if I ever decide to brave the murky waters of TSA I'll try to plan for Ohio...

Tonglin helps. : )

I do travel allot. Perhaps I end up coming your way. I just love hooking up with new folks and trading experiences in the more subtle side of the martial arts.

Chris Parkerson 05-30-2012 09:23 AM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
Quote:

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: (Post 309981)
Chris,

You can hit all manner of objects while being relaxed as well as using the hips and a weight drop. Its pretty "heavy" compared to when people muscle things, but it isn't the same thing as IS/IP etc. It is probably the best one can use when using "external" strength, and shouldn't be taken lightly, but has short comings compared to the stuff others are talking about.

That is what intrigues me so much about your experience of it. Especially Dan's.
I have not, nor will I ever (en sha'allah), judge something or someone who is kind enough to teach me something.

Dr. Shie Ming Hwang (rather well respected fellow I understand in Taiwanese Kung Fu ranks) recently shares the training program he used to make his son so good. Was it the whole program? Likely not. He and I were feeling each other out for about two years (I travel allot). But his stuff was magnificent and I honor him for sharing with me what he did.

I have done similarly since 1971. And what I learn from IS/IP when that happens, will be treated just as honorably. And I will honor those who shared it with me.

My learning is never stagnant. And my theories and concepts are "beliefs" that are subject to refinement or 180 degree change.

I do not set myself up as a teacher or as a leader, I am simply sharing my experience freely in hopes of raising discussion among people of similar interest. And I am elated when the discussions open doors to meet folks.

Namaste,

Chris

Chris Parkerson 05-30-2012 09:52 AM

Re: Daito's Roppokai, Aiki Age, Aiki Sage and The Hammer
 
By the way, Hunter,

Thanks for that explanation. I hope we get to talk at length about the subject when all these tense energies blow over.

I see battle lines drawn. Excommunications seem like they are coming. I pray the heretics do not get burned at the stake.

Now, off to San Francisco for the Black and White Ball, and the Aids lifeCycle trip from San Francisco to Burbank. Somehow, I hope camping along the Big Sur with wildly-dressed cyclists will clear out the sadness I feel is stuck inside me because of the fights occurring between my Aiki brothers and
sisters.

Time for Tonglin.

Chris


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