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-   -   If it has to be felt, what does a feeling look like? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21347)

Anthony Loeppert 05-19-2012 02:09 PM

If it has to be felt, what does a feeling look like?
 
How many data points would be needed to distinguish between good posture and bad. Proper technique and poor?

There are now sensors small and cheap enough for small budgets to create a picture of how various pieces move through space. How many would be minimal for a sort of standard?

If you wanted to "record" a technique or feeling, how many places on the body would you expect to record? Each sensor records 3axis acceleration and 3axis angular rotation.
My initial list:

One on both sides of the knees and elbows. 8 +
left, right hip. 2 +
left, right shoulders. 2+
head 1+

so a baker's dozen sensors placed over the body to get a crude picture of movement of the entire body... ?

Thoughts?

Carsten Möllering 05-20-2012 06:20 AM

Re: If it has to be felt, what does a feeling look like?
 
I think it would be necessary to place "sensors" inside. But I even if this would be possible, I don't think this would lead somewhere.

When I attended a seminar of Ikeda Hiroshi he enjoyed to not move one inch but to change "his inside" so uke lost his balance.
I have some uke who I can lead to a certain point and get to a position where I can throw them or not throw them without moving. I change inside. But also I don't think I'm "moving" inside. A sensor would stay in the same place. But maybe it would change it's "direction".
Also: Endo sensei teaches to lead one's feeling downward. This can not be shown. And this is not alone about the alignement of the body but also about directing the intent down, to the earth.

Maybe it would be interesting, to mark the vertebrae of the spine. Or some point within the shoulders, the hips. To see how all this opens/closes, twists ... But I don't think it would help.

Anthony Loeppert 05-20-2012 10:35 AM

Re: If it has to be felt, what does a feeling look like?
 
Here is something like what I mean, though this technology seems a bit clunky.

http://my.news.yahoo.com/sensor-suit...3360--spt.html

and this:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...this-week.html

David Orange 05-22-2012 06:34 PM

Re: If it has to be felt, what does a feeling look like?
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 309369)
I think it would be necessary to place "sensors" inside. But I even if this would be possible, I don't think this would lead somewhere.

When I attended a seminar of Ikeda Hiroshi he enjoyed to not move one inch but to change "his inside" so uke lost his balance.
I have some uke who I can lead to a certain point and get to a position where I can throw them or not throw them without moving. I change inside. But also I don't think I'm "moving" inside. A sensor would stay in the same place. But maybe it would change it's "direction".
Also: Endo sensei teaches to lead one's feeling downward. This can not be shown. And this is not alone about the alignement of the body but also about directing the intent down, to the earth.

Maybe it would be interesting, to mark the vertebrae of the spine. Or some point within the shoulders, the hips. To see how all this opens/closes, twists ... But I don't think it would help.

It's almost like asking for a map of the feeling of "love".

The beauty of IS is that there is almost no outward sign of what happens. While you can see "love" on a person's face, or you can see "hate" or other things, the face in IS is calm and more like listening than projecting.

This idea is like trying to discern the inner paths of the body through a technological mirror of what can be seen of the outside movement. Only the human ki can follow the path of IS, and only the ki can give the mind access to those paths. And it can give us access to the inner paths of an opponent.

I met a 67 year old Chen tai chi man recently and he asked me to join in his class. Even though I didn't know the form well, when we finished, the man said I moved like I had studied martial arts. He approved and I could tell he wanted to show me some stuff later on.

Later the same week, I had an interesting experience. I was almost attacked by a roofing contractor who was running scams in the neighborhood. He realized that I wasn't going to hire him and he just showed up at my house and almost attacked me on my front porch.

Like BK Frantzis outlined, this guy was operating 100% on the animal level of fighting--getting himself all worked up with his hormones and adrenaline, while my concern was keeping myself calm and relaxed, upright, with my weight in my feet. I was very consciously directing my weight down. The only thing I did was get taller and calmer, but also more serious with him.

He acted like a somewhat trained boxer. He almost threw a punch and I realized that his intent was to hit my head and knock it back into the door frame, then follow up with a flurry of vicious punches and kicks. I'm sure he's done that to someone before. I just told him to get in his truck and go somewhere and calm down before he got into serious trouble.

I don't think he ever had any idea of what he was facing, but he could never get himself organized to throw a punch. It was a different kind of encounter, altogether, from things I've experienced in the past and it's entirely due to what I've learned over the past few years from Mike, Dan, Ark and Rob John.

Best wishes.

David

Anthony Loeppert 05-23-2012 07:19 PM

Re: If it has to be felt, what does a feeling look like?
 
Hmm... so should I put you guys down for zero sensors, or infinite "probes" placed all throughout the nervous system, recording the neuron pulses? ;)

I confess, using some hyperbole in the thread subject, as my intentions were not so ambitious as to capture a feeling, whatever that may mean. Initial thoughts would be (assuming a data capture implementation):
Remembering static postures: how to remember that one body re-position from the visiting instructor that made all the difference but is foreign and awkward (like all new movements) and tough to remember.

Next being able to dynamically set ranges with some audible or vibration feedback whether thresholds are exceeded... moving through a waza without the shoulders raising... whatever the bad habit being targeted at the moment.

Basic stuff. Just finding or making the data visualization tools will be the biggest challenge. The data capture seems straightforward enough with off-the-shelf components streaming to a laptop or phone.

Prototyping a solution once the parts arrive:
http://www.sparkfun.com/products/11028 +
http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9564 +
http://www.sparkfun.com/products/10269
should be enough to get the ball rolling, so to speak.

Strange hobbies...

David Orange 05-24-2012 07:06 AM

Re: If it has to be felt, what does a feeling look like?
 
Quote:

Anthony Loeppert wrote: (Post 309504)
Hmm... so should I put you guys down for zero sensors, or infinite "probes" placed all throughout the nervous system, recording the neuron pulses? ;)

Well, we already have those things. They're ki and mentality. But they cannot be shown to others--only described.

I was just reading Richard Kim and he said that a sensei must often feel like a person yodeling in a mountain valley. He hears lots of echoes but wonders if anyone hears him.

I understood him to mean that lots of people repeat what the sensei says, but they usually don't have any idea what he was talking about.

Pictures or graphs of the outside of the sensei's body will not and cannot help us understand. We can be right with the master and copy all of his movements. To understand the internal, we can only take his descriptions and experiment endlessly with them.

I will say it doesn't hurt to see videos of the teacher (especially if you understand that the outer form is only a shadow of what happens inside) and getting close to a big teacher is excellent, too.

But the only real answer is to get with someone who knows, feel what they do and follow their advice on how to develop.

Quote:

Anthony Loeppert wrote: (Post 309504)
Remembering static postures: how to remember that one body re-position from the visiting instructor that made all the difference but is foreign and awkward (like all new movements) and tough to remember.

That makes some sense, but again, the external form is only incidental. In this case, form follows function. If you pay enough attention to gravity (weight) in the form, you can start to get somewhere.

Not to pop your balloon, but I just don't think it's an effective approach and will more likely just distract from real learning in your body and with your mind.

Best to you.

David

Walker 05-24-2012 11:07 AM

Re: If it has to be felt, what does a feeling look like?
 
Quote:

David Orange wrote: (Post 309532)

I was just reading Richard Kim and he said that a sensei must often feel like a person yodeling in a mountain valley. He hears lots of echoes but wonders if anyone hears him.

Nice. I'm not usually a fan, but that's a good one.

Anthony Loeppert 05-24-2012 05:57 PM

Re: If it has to be felt, what does a feeling look like?
 
Quote:

David Orange wrote: (Post 309532)
I was just reading Richard Kim and he said that a sensei must often feel like a person yodeling in a mountain valley. He hears lots of echoes but wonders if anyone hears him.

I understood him to mean that lots of people repeat what the sensei says, but they usually don't have any idea what he was talking about.

Pictures or graphs of the outside of the sensei's body will not and cannot help us understand. We can be right with the master and copy all of his movements. To understand the internal, we can only take his descriptions and experiment endlessly with them.

I will say it doesn't hurt to see videos of the teacher (especially if you understand that the outer form is only a shadow of what happens inside) and getting close to a big teacher is excellent, too.

But the only real answer is to get with someone who knows, feel what they do and follow their advice on how to develop.

That makes some sense, but again, the external form is only incidental. In this case, form follows function. If you pay enough attention to gravity (weight) in the form, you can start to get somewhere.

Not to pop your balloon, but I just don't think it's an effective approach and will more likely just distract from real learning in your body and with your mind.

I think we are in agreement. A conventional picture will never be able to describe the how and why of a smiling face captured within it. Biometric data is (are?) no different.

As to my distraction, I probably would have just wasted the time anyway.

Incidentally, I'm not talking about copying (someone else) but comparing self-to-self (at a later time).

Anthony Loeppert 05-26-2012 07:33 AM

Re: If it has to be felt, what does a feeling look like?
 
These guys give a nice overview and suggestions for software analysis techniques.

David Orange 05-26-2012 11:47 AM

Re: If it has to be felt, what does a feeling look like?
 
Quote:

Doug Walker wrote: (Post 309547)
Nice. I'm not usually a fan, but that's a good one.

I'm going to start a new thread on this, Doug. Please comment further there.

Thanks.

David

Anthony Loeppert 06-27-2012 07:49 PM

Re: If it has to be felt, what does a feeling look like?
 
Quote:

Anthony Loeppert wrote: (Post 309647)
These guys give a nice overview and suggestions for software analysis techniques.

It lives! But it is on life support... and requires much nurturing and care.


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