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osaya 04-14-2012 06:48 AM

Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
For those of you who have developed Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP), I'm wondering how it applies to non-humans, i.e. to inanimate objects (such as when lifting a heavy table/rock) and to animals (for instance when 'play-wresting' with a large dog, primate or bear).

I know this question may sound a little bizarre, but I'm wondering about the generalisability and/or limitations of IS/IP. And perhaps whether there are variations of the of IS/IP?

Thanks in advance.

gregstec 04-14-2012 07:28 AM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
IMO, IS/IP can (and should) be used in ALL movements regardless of external contact with anything or not - IS/IP is really all about you!

Greg

DodgingRain 04-14-2012 09:44 AM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Good question.

In my opinion, there are most definitely different permutations and variations of so called 'internal strength/power', with varying levels of understanding and depth (completeness) in each martial art. But there are a lot of variables.
I believe there are some baseline principles to be used universally in most good effective martial arts (which Mike Sigman has already outlined), with different variations and permutations based on that particular art's fighting strategy and applications/techniques. A style's given strategy and techniques will determinute how those universal principles are used, and taking into account variables such as - how pure/deep was that art's transmission in the first place (how much did they originally get), how well have they preserved those teachings in transmission, etc. will determine to what degree and depth their level of understanding/completeness is.

I have in no way developed any skills to speak of, but I have heard on more than one occasion, from more than one source that this type of training is specifically for effective human to human martial interaction. ie. At the higher/more complete level, the training develops an efficient and unconventional way of moving that is so different and unexpected from normal human movement/interaction that others have a very difficult time dealing with the way you move.

While the training may give you peripheral or secondary benefits in manipulating and moving inanimate objects because you learn to more efficiently carry and transfer weight, and learn to power your movements from your lower body; it is really more effective in manipulating a live person (human body). A person expects you to move and react/respond in a certain way, and when you dont, it can be very jarring and difficult to deal with, so there are ways of developing your body to manipulate it in moving in very different ways. ("kuzushi") It is also effective with a live human because a human only has two legs so there are always two weak spots in a person's structure which can be exploited after this balance taking. A dog or a bear and a lot of other animals move on four legs, so their center of gravity is different and they are naturally more stable, more efficient at moving on four legs. I think it could work on some animals and possibly even primates but you have to consider a lot of variables, like a primate has a much stronger grip than a human does, proportionally much much stronger, etc.

so to sum it up, in my lowly beginner opinion, I think this type of training is a good healthy overall system for structuring the body but is specifically designed at effectively manipulating another live human person.

Tom Verhoeven 04-14-2012 12:05 PM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Quote:

Seng-Yew Ong wrote: (Post 307505)
For those of you who have developed Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP), I'm wondering how it applies to non-humans, i.e. to inanimate objects (such as when lifting a heavy table/rock) and to animals (for instance when 'play-wresting' with a large dog, primate or bear).

I know this question may sound a little bizarre, but I'm wondering about the generalisability and/or limitations of IS/IP. And perhaps whether there are variations of the of IS/IP?

Thanks in advance.

Interesting question. Perhaps the following is an example?
There is a well known story about students of the founder clearing terrain to create the Aiki-En, the Aiki garden. They were not able to move some of the big rocks and logs of wood. They asked O Sensei about what to do with it and he came along and moved the rocks without any effort. Would you consider this as an example of IS/IP or is something else going on here?

Tom

DodgingRain 04-14-2012 12:20 PM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Quote:

Tom Verhoeven wrote: (Post 307516)
Interesting question. Perhaps the following is an example?
There is a well known story about students of the founder clearing terrain to create the Aiki-En, the Aiki garden. They were not able to move some of the big rocks and logs of wood. They asked O Sensei about what to do with it and he came along and moved the rocks without any effort. Would you consider this as an example of IS/IP or is something else going on here?

Tom

Im curious if you know about how old Ueshiba was during this time?

Morihei Ueshiba was known to be physically very strong in his day.

But then you have to also consider there are accounts from different lineages, and even different arts entirely that mention great masters in their older years not having the strength required to perform simple mundane actions like opening a jar, or even walking in some cases (after a stroke, etc) but being able to throw around bigger younger guys.

From AikidoJournal.com:
"By around 1975 when I had my own dojo Sensei had quite weak legs and needed a stick and his wife’s shoulder when he walked. However, once he stood in the dojo wearing a keikogi (training uniform) he suddenly looked like a huge rock. It was truly impressive." by Katsumi Yonezawa

There are similar anecdotes about Sagawa, and Hong Jun Sheng.

chillzATL 04-14-2012 03:31 PM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
I've talked about my experiences with gardening and general yard work several times around here. IMO the whole "changing how you move" aspect of IS is probably a little hard for most to grasp at first. Even if you understand it and try to do it, it's laborous at first because everything is slower, more deliberate, and generally just not as efficient time-wise as just doing whatever it is you're trying to do. Gardening and such was the first thing to me outside of dedicated IS training stuff that I tried to focus on moving that way while doing them and felt a difference in return. It wasn't in the form of any increased power output, but simply more efficient use of energy and less soreness a few days later, or i'll say, different soreness. The repetitive movements of that sort of work really let you treat it as an exercise, but one that involves changing how you move and think to do them. That sort of work also has a real weight to it, so the ability to feel it, make changes and play around with that helps.

Chris Li 04-15-2012 02:00 AM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Quote:

Tom Verhoeven wrote: (Post 307516)
Interesting question. Perhaps the following is an example?
There is a well known story about students of the founder clearing terrain to create the Aiki-En, the Aiki garden. They were not able to move some of the big rocks and logs of wood. They asked O Sensei about what to do with it and he came along and moved the rocks without any effort. Would you consider this as an example of IS/IP or is something else going on here?

Tom

When I heard the story (told by a guy who said that it had happened to him), it sounded mostly like Ueshiba was smarter about leverage than anything else.

OTOH, I've heard several students of Ueshiba repeat the same stories (not this one, I'm just mentioning this by way of a general example) - and in each case they were the person that it happened to! So, there's no telling how accurate the version I heard was.

Best,

Chris

osaya 05-14-2012 01:16 AM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
thank you everyone who was replied so far. with respect, whilst i appreciate people's thoughts and views on the subject, i'm hoping for someone who actually has (at least in their opinion) developed some level of IS/IP to comment on the topic. without that, i'm afraid that the ambiguous nature of IS/IP would lead to tangential speculations and baseless assumptions.

i hope my being frank doesn't offend anyone... well, not too much anyway. :o

phitruong 05-14-2012 06:14 AM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Quote:

Seng-Yew Ong wrote: (Post 309038)
without that, i'm afraid that the ambiguous nature of IS/IP would lead to tangential speculations and baseless assumptions.

just hit the nail in the head, ambiguous is rightly so. i have known to tip a cow or two over without using any of IS/IP whatsoever. you can't tip a water buffalo over though, since they have a pretty wide base and rather very stable.

Quote:

i hope my being frank doesn't offend anyone... well, not too much anyway. :o
of course we are offended with frank, whoever he is. :)

sakumeikan 05-14-2012 07:31 AM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Quote:

Brett Zimmerman wrote: (Post 307518)
Im curious if you know about how old Ueshiba was during this time?

Morihei Ueshiba was known to be physically very strong in his day.

But then you have to also consider there are accounts from different lineages, and even different arts entirely that mention great masters in their older years not having the strength required to perform simple mundane actions like opening a jar, or even walking in some cases (after a stroke, etc) but being able to throw around bigger younger guys.

From AikidoJournal.com:
"By around 1975 when I had my own dojo Sensei had quite weak legs and needed a stick and his wife's shoulder when he walked. However, once he stood in the dojo wearing a keikogi (training uniform) he suddenly looked like a huge rock. It was truly impressive." by Katsumi Yonezawa

There are similar anecdotes about Sagawa, and Hong Jun Sheng.

Dear Brett,
My own Judo teacher , Tam Mc Dermott, ffrom Glasgow, a man almost forgotten sad to say , by Scttish judoka, was such a person who could appear to change the minute he put on a gi.Tam was 9) percent disabled and if you saw him walking from a distance he shuffled along the road. You could tell it was him by his gait a mile away.On arrival at the dojo [an old delapidated cold ex army nissan hut ] he would change into his gi.It was like watching a transformation. He was technically superb.I knew him for 13 years[from age 16 -29 ] and I never once saw anyone throw him.I was a kenshusei in the dojo and he drove myself and others to exhaustion point.He was a brilliant motivator of people. Unlike todays Judoka he maintained a upright posture.He used to call guys who crouched Bell Ringers ie like the Hunchback of Notre Dame.Sad to say he died with very few of his colleagues to bid him farewell.It was a tragiic end to a most remarkable man.He still has a place in my heart aftr all these years. I cherish his memory, Joe.

sakumeikan 05-14-2012 07:57 AM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Quote:

Brett Zimmerman wrote: (Post 307518)
Im curious if you know about how old Ueshiba was during this time?

Morihei Ueshiba was known to be physically very strong in his day.

But then you have to also consider there are accounts from different lineages, and even different arts entirely that mention great masters in their older years not having the strength required to perform simple mundane actions like opening a jar, or even walking in some cases (after a stroke, etc) but being able to throw around bigger younger guys.

From AikidoJournal.com:
"By around 1975 when I had my own dojo Sensei had quite weak legs and needed a stick and his wife's shoulder when he walked. However, once he stood in the dojo wearing a keikogi (training uniform) he suddenly looked like a huge rock. It was truly impressive." by Katsumi Yonezawa

There are similar anecdotes about Sagawa, and Hong Jun Sheng.

Dear Brett,
One does not have to delve deeply into the past to find people who can manifest such things ss you describe above.
There are times where I can hardly raise my bottom from my armchair [especially if I am tucking into dougnuts] and other times when the BiG Boss {this missus]gives me a direct order to wash the dishes I suddenly acquire superhuman strength .I seize the dishcloth/dishes and using incredible mental powers [call this KI/I/S /I/p or any combination of esoteric phrases ]I fairly wipe the floor with the dish cleaning.The added advantage of this shugyo training method is that I find I can throw big guys around.Of course since I am a shambling 73 year old wreck, perhaps these virile young monsters are just humouring little old me??? Joe.

DH 05-14-2012 10:17 AM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Quote:

Seng-Yew Ong wrote: (Post 309038)
Quote:

For those of you who have developed Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP), I'm wondering how it applies to non-humans, i.e. to inanimate objects (such as when lifting a heavy table/rock) and to animals (for instance when 'play-wresting' with a large dog, primate or bear).

I know this question may sound a little bizarre, but I'm wondering about the generalisability and/or limitations of IS/IP. And perhaps whether there are variations of the of IS/IP?

Thanks in advance.
Thank you everyone who was replied so far. with respect, whilst i appreciate people's thoughts and views on the subject, i'm hoping for someone who actually has (at least in their opinion) developed some level of IS/IP to comment on the topic. without that, i'm afraid that the ambiguous nature of IS/IP would lead to tangential speculations and baseless assumptions.

i hope my being frank doesn't offend anyone... well, not too much anyway. :o

Hello Sir
I have developed internal strength and can use it in a variety of ways that do not require anyone to "believe-in"... a single thing I say. As for your list. It is yes all the way including wall building and actual work, also my 190lb Rottweiller and my Pit bull/ boxer (though if I pissed them off...I would bet on the dog!!). Sorry, no bears or apes unless you count some older Budo-ka I know. Well...there was this Samoan and also a German giant named Sven!!!:freaky:
IP, combined with aiki, will work better on people...than inanimate objects (like teenagers and many adults with T.V.'s) for a host of reasons you don't really need to know about or concern yourself with.

To be equally frank, I found your last statement to be a rather transparent indicator of not only your doubts, but your intentions in your original posting. To be clear, your own lack of believing that Internal power has any merit will last about one minute in person,(if it takes that long) so why would I spend time over and over in debating it on the internet when no one I have met from your art or most any other art, can do much of anything to stop it.....in person? To that end, I have found the discussions to be more fruitful....in person. Hence my increasingly rare apearences on the net.

An ever increasing number of us are improving by practicing the real power behind the Asian arts (from India to China to Japan) that was always kept closed to most, for mileniums. It seems everyone else is proud to practice whatever it was they did want us to know. I have no intention of trying to convince you of anything on the net.
It's all good. Have fun, and good luck in your training
Dan

Keith Larman 05-14-2012 10:54 AM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
I read through some of these threads and I often wonder about one thing. If we instead said "there are ways to learn to use your entire body cohesively and fluidly to both generate and absorb a maximal amount of power and leverage possible given the constraints of the person's size and developmental level", wouldn't most say "hey, that sounds like a good thing"? I mean, really, most of us know already that there are almost always more efficient ways to do things. Just look out at the world of fitness today. Most have moved away from things like "all day cardio" and "isolated muscle group weight machines" in to concepts of comprehensive fitness, functional fitness, heck, even something as trendy as Pilates? All these things begin to accept that strength, power, etc. is actually quite complex involving a lot more than local muscle groups. Look at the old Ranch hand who can toss bales of hay like they're nothing. My wife trains our dogs in herding sheep and cattle and every time I go up to the ranch and help out with the feeding I'm astounded watching a thin woman at that ranch who must be pushing 60 pick up those bales like they're nothing. I struggle and I"m not an insignificant guy. She's just been doing it, well, forever so she learned to do it very, very well, using her entire body, using leverage, using all sorts of things. All without developing large arms, gigantic shoulders, or anything else. I could probably out lift her on any machine in a gym. But there is no question in my mind that she could toss more hay around way longer than me. And not pay a price for it the next day, unlike me.

So here you have an example of a person developing a specific skill set, a specific type of conditioning, all suited to the task at hand. Is it so hard to believe that one can also develop similar skills for the task we're engaged in? Or that there are specific ways to develop that those self-same physical abilities and attributes through specific, targeted exercise and practice that help develop it quicker than though sporadic, often mindless 2-3 hours a week practice in the dojo (before we all head out for beers)? Yeah, I think some of those old timers developed their skills partly through osmosis, but also because guys like Ueshiba were freaking maniacs, training for many hours daily, constantly working, constantly developing. We want those abilities? Put in the work. Is it so hard to believe that there might be things one could do to develop those things specifically?

I've said it before, but I think what we have to day is a *lot* of people who have bought in to the philosophy and in to the outer appearance of these arts. Yes, timing, blending, all sorts of stuff is really important. And some folk can do amazing things with superb timing, balance, blending, etc. But what if as you work towards that perfection on those skills you also developed a targeted physicality of that ranch hand working all day for years. But targeted towards grappling. And moving an unwilling opponent. That task that few are able to practice for 8 hours daily for 10 years.

People talk about 10,000 hours for mastery. What people often don't talk about is that those 10,000 hours take a *lot* of time daily if you expect to get there before you retire. If you consider an 8 hour work day, 5 days a week, how long for 10,000 hours? Well, in one year that's 2080 hours. So at that rate you have about 5 years. What if you cut the hours in half -- 4 hours a day. 9 years. What if it's 1 hour a day? 38 years. Let's say you have a student coming twice a week to 2 hours each time. That's 4 hours a week. 208 hours a year. 48 years to get to 10,000 hours.

But what if you do an hour of exercises each day. Plus you try very hard to focus on particular ways of moving and interacting with the world (lifting, pushing, moving, etc.) Let's say you can get 2 hours a day of developmental work. Plus get in 6 hours a week at the dojo practicing (serious student). That's 20 hours a week. Now we have 1040 hours a year. 9.5 years to mastery.

Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud. There is a serious message here about training, time and focus. It's not like people are talking about a silver bullet that magically transforms someone in one day. It still takes work. It still takes hours. It still takes focus. But maybe the discussion shouldn't be about whether one believes or not, whether one "buys" in to the idea. Maybe we should instead talk about "how do you work to condition your body for your art?" And then ask if those who work hard on specific exercises to condition themselves are able to do things above and beyond those who do not? And whether they improve faster? And whether they find those body skills "fill in some blanks" in techniques making some things seem so obvious.

Obviously I have made up my own mind. And since we're talking about videos, etc. back to my rancher friend. Looking at her then looking at me the smart money would be on me to be able to move the hay better, longer, further, and faster. And most of us have met people who can do these sorts of things in some area. I can sit and polish a sword on a rock for hours on end, something that would leave most horrible sore, stiff, and with hands that would cease to work for a few days. But I doubt you'd know that just looking at me. Over the years of doing it hours on end I learned to relax and allow my entire body to move the sword. I don't "grasp" the sword so much as it is firmly in my hand but I don't really feel any tension. Hard to explain. When I started it was difficult and painful. And I was younger and healthier all those years ago. Now it's easier than ever. And I'm older, weaker, and have all sorts of injuries. But I can go longer. And better. And more accurately.

Isn't that what we're working towards?

Sorry if this is tangential. Just something that's been rattling in my empty skull and this thread brought it out.

mathewjgano 05-14-2012 12:24 PM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
I really liked that, Keith. Thank you! I think it frames the genaral nature of training really well...not that I'm in much position to know better. I remember always being told work smarter not harder. I think this idea has led to a degree of laziness. Now I think, "work smarter and harder."
...FWIW
Thanks again,
Matt

Howard Popkin 05-14-2012 01:38 PM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 309053)

To be equally frank, I found your last statement to be a rather transparent indicator of not only your doubts, but your intentions in your original posting. To be clear, your own lack of believing that Internal power has any merit will last about one minute in person,(if it takes that long) so why would I spend time over and over in debating it on the internet when no one I have met from your art or most any other art, can do much of anything to stop it.....in person? To that end, I have found the discussions to be more fruitful....in person. Hence my increasingly rare apearences on the net.

Dan

ONE MINUTE ????????????????:D :D :D :D :D :D

I'd be really upset with you If it took one minute

See you soon !

Nicholas Eschenbruch 05-14-2012 02:00 PM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Really great post Keith, thank you.

sakumeikan 05-14-2012 02:42 PM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Dear All,
I often marvelled at the aikido of Tamura/Sekiya/Yamaguchi Semsei for the sheer economy of movement in their waza and the effectiveness of their waza.Younger guy could sweat bllod and use tons of energy with poor results while these middle aged men, slightly built could train for hours without breaking sweat.I think these men simply developed their bodies in a similar [but different] type of body model than the one where the lady could toss bales of hay around all day.Other examples like weight lifters,gymnasts and dancers seem to be able to perform incredible physical feats which few can emulate.Cheers, Joe

osaya 05-20-2012 01:33 AM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 309044)
i have known to tip a cow or two over without using any of IS/IP whatsoever. you can't tip a water buffalo over though, since they have a pretty wide base and rather very stable.

hmm, interesting dilemma with the water buffalo... maybe an atemi or two to take its balance first? :p

Quote:

of course we are offended with frank, whoever he is. :)
what a small world! didn't realise you knew frank too! yes, he's really an annoying little bugger. :rolleyes:

osaya 05-20-2012 01:36 AM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 309053)
It is yes all the way including wall building and actual work, also my 190lb Rottweiller and my Pit bull/ boxer...IP, combined with aiki, will work better on people... than inanimate objects.

Quote:

To be equally frank, I found your last statement to be a rather transparent indicator of not only your doubts, but your intentions in your original posting. To be clear, your own lack of believing that Internal power has any merit will last about one minute in person,(if it takes that long) so why would I spend time over and over in debating it on the internet when no one I have met from your art or most any other art, can do much of anything to stop it.....in person?
Quote:

I have no intention of trying to convince you of anything on the net.
It's all good. Have fun, and good luck in your training
Dan
thanks for your post Dan. i was hoping that someone with IP/IS experience would reply, but it feels like i've struck the lottery with getting you to bite! :D i'm sorry if i came across as being another keyboard warrior/skeptic, but without direct contact with a highly experienced/developed IP practitioner, i'm just trying to develop some of sort of conceptual framework that i could use. i attended a seminar with Bill Gleason a few months ago, and he spoke very highly of you and your IP, and that has removed most of my skepticism, which i had without any prior contact with you (or someone similar).

the reason i posted such a specific question was to test my hypothesis about whether IS/IP was about the skill/ability to control/manipulate another human being via the nervous system, but if you are proposing that it is also applicable to regular workloads and animals, then i can safely scratch that idea of the list.

so from what you're saying, i'm now reverting back to the original idea that IP is an additional source of power from physical strength, rather than an extraneous skill/ability. that said, i'm still curious though why IP would work better with people rather than inanimate objects if it is simply an additional source of power as compared to say a specific skill set.

osaya 05-20-2012 01:38 AM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Quote:

Howard Popkin wrote: (Post 309063)
ONE MINUTE ????????????????:D :D :D :D :D :D

I'd be really upset with you If it took one minute

haha, yes, from what i've heard. if i can hold one minute with Dan, i'd consider it an achievement.

chillzATL 05-20-2012 08:20 AM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Quote:

Seng-Yew Ong wrote: (Post 309364)
so from what you're saying, i'm now reverting back to the original idea that IP is an additional source of power from physical strength, rather than an extraneous skill/ability. that said, i'm still curious though why IP would work better with people rather than inanimate objects if it is simply an additional source of power as compared to say a specific skill set.

When you talk about it in terms of contact with another person, it is both conditioning and trained skill. With inanimate objects it's more conditioning than skill, more or less...

Chris Parkerson 05-21-2012 07:17 AM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Take a hammer and pound a large nail into wood with one or two strokes.
Every principle of efficiency in body mechanics is either there or it isn't.

And you can see the immediate results coming out of your stroke.

DH 05-22-2012 01:55 PM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Quote:

Chris Parkerson wrote: (Post 309398)
Take a hammer and pound a large nail into wood with one or two strokes.
Every principle of efficiency in body mechanics is either there or it isn't.

And you can see the immediate results coming out of your stroke.

That is total nonsense and makes a mockery of thousands of years of martial knowledge.
Dan

Howard Popkin 05-23-2012 01:46 PM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Chris,

I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree.

I can't swing a hammer, but I can call a carpenter.

Also, I thought I put the jew in aikijujutsu :)

Howard

Janet Rosen 05-23-2012 01:53 PM

Re: Internal Power/Strength (IS/IP) in relation to non-human contact
 
Quote:

Howard Popkin wrote: (Post 309492)
Chris,

I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree.

I can't swing a hammer, but I can call a carpenter.

Also, I thought I put the jew in aikijujutsu :)

Howard

Bet the screwheads in your house all have traces of cream cheese on them too :D


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