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-   -   Heart leads mind, mind leads qi, qi leads strength (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21044)

Lorel Latorilla 03-24-2012 03:44 PM

Heart leads mind, mind leads qi, qi leads strength
 
Posted from another board by me:

The heart leads mind, the mind leads qi, the qi leads the power". Sounds like a catchphrase hippies would say but I think this is something physical/phenomenal that applies to our daily training. I've been talking to this Daito Ryu guy and has been talking about intent a lot and how intent initiates movement--it actually leads the qi FIRST, the energy, which then leads the body to be configured in such a way that it becomes strong and stable. This expression refers to a sequence that occurs in movement. It is very subtle and probably happens in a millisecond. But our awareness of it is crucial for getting that "strength" that we want. The one thing that I am still unsure about is the "heart leads mind" aspect, something that occurs before intent "mind leads qi". You guys have any ideas on what this "heart leads mind" refers to in physical reality?

gregstec 03-24-2012 06:05 PM

Re: Heart leads mind, mind leads qi, qi leads strength
 
Simple - you just need to have a desire (heart) based on a situation to stimulate the mind to provide an intention to do something; which then stimulates the Qi to enable a movement that has a certain power or strength. Most people enable an external muscular powered movement (Li) however, internal people enable an internal powered movement (Jin)

Just my opinion, and YMMV for FWIW :)

Greg

Chris Li 03-24-2012 06:09 PM

Re: Heart leads mind, mind leads qi, qi leads strength
 
Quote:

Lorel Latorilla wrote: (Post 306322)
Posted from another board by me:

The heart leads mind, the mind leads qi, the qi leads the power". Sounds like a catchphrase hippies would say but I think this is something physical/phenomenal that applies to our daily training. I've been talking to this Daito Ryu guy and has been talking about intent a lot and how intent initiates movement--it actually leads the qi FIRST, the energy, which then leads the body to be configured in such a way that it becomes strong and stable. This expression refers to a sequence that occurs in movement. It is very subtle and probably happens in a millisecond. But our awareness of it is crucial for getting that "strength" that we want. The one thing that I am still unsure about is the "heart leads mind" aspect, something that occurs before intent "mind leads qi". You guys have any ideas on what this "heart leads mind" refers to in physical reality?

These are the three internal harmonies, from Chinese internal martial arts. In Japanese:

心と意の合・意と気の合・気と力の合

Usually people say "Mind leads intent, intent leads Ki, Ki leads power".

In Asian vernacular "mind" (the intellectual decision) and "intent" (the focusing of the mind on that decision) are seen as two separate actions.

If you Google it with relation to (for example) Taiji or other internal arts you should come up with quite a bit of information.

Some interesting pieces by Morihei Ueshiba that also cite the three harmonies (with just slightly different wording) may appear in my blog at some point. :D

FWIW...

Best,

Chris

gregstec 03-24-2012 06:25 PM

Re: Heart leads mind, mind leads qi, qi leads strength
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 306326)
These are the three internal harmonies, from Chinese internal martial arts. In Japanese:

ƒと„のˆƒ„と—のˆƒ—とŠ›のˆ

Usually people say "Mind leads intent, intent leads Ki, Ki leads power".

In Asian vernacular "mind" (the intellectual decision) and "intent" (the focusing of the mind on that decision) are seen as two separate actions.


If you Google it with relation to (for example) Taiji or other internal arts you should come up with quite a bit of information.

Some interesting pieces by Morihei Ueshiba that also cite the three harmonies (with just slightly different wording) may appear in my blog at some point. :D

FWIW...

Best,

Chris

Yes, very important IMO - most people just combine mind and intent as one when they talk about it, but they are separate - intent is a function of mind that controls the ki. Actually, a lot of people just use the term 'intent' to combine the functions of mind, intent, and ki. IMO, you really need to separate them and view them for what they are to truly understand what is going on with the internal stuff. Also, I view ki as the bridge from the mental to the physical.

Greg

SeiserL 03-24-2012 06:36 PM

Re: Heart leads mind, mind leads qi, qi leads strength
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 306326)
Usually people say "Mind leads intent, intent leads Ki, Ki leads power".

I would have to go with this one.

Lorel Latorilla 03-26-2012 07:42 AM

Re: Heart leads mind, mind leads qi, qi leads strength
 
Thanks for response guys.

Anyway, so the "heart" is the foundation of it all. The mindset is the most important. The mindset could range from wanting to kill all the people that try to defy, or something like wanting to protect people, or the desire to train one's body to handle physical and mental stresses. Some people exposure to Systema here and a lot of the training is not really jin-qi-aiki based but has priceless exercises to train the "heart". Besides cold water dousing everyday, I train 2 minute push ups and 5 minute squats and doing push up holds for 5-10 minutes (which I havent done in a minute). Besides these exercises being good drills to relax the body under stress and incidentally building up the suit, they are excellent drills to train one to deal with physical/mental stress and build up the "heart" to endure, suvive, etc..

If the heart is not "refined",perhaps the intent will not sharpen. There is no sharpness to the intent or you are not aware that you do have to sharpen your intent.

Allen Beebe 03-26-2012 07:25 PM

Re: Heart leads mind, mind leads qi, qi leads strength
 
Brought to us by the same folks that "invented" IP and Aiki, and similarly dumbed down to a pale shadow of its former depth and profundity by the very institutions charged to protect it, the great Indian meditative traditions knew and worked with "the mind" at a much "higher definition" than most are aware of.

Using the first phrasing presented:

"The heart leads mind, the mind leads qi, the qi leads the power."

The "heart" can be constituted of a multitude of pre-conscious factors and conditions. For example general genetic components that cause us to be human as opposed to something else carry with it conditions that cause us to interact with the world in certain predictable ways. There are also environmental, social, cultural, temporal and genetic factors that can profoundly influence how, what, why and the quality of our pre-conscious cognition. Also included at the conscious and sub-conscious levels there are influences from Language, past experiences, our judgments and narratives about the past experiences, etc. There is more that can be written but hopefully I've made laid out the general idea. (This of course is a huge continuum from broad and "impersonal" to the highly personal.)

All of these factors, causes and conditions interact and mutually influence on another before one is normally even consciously aware of "having a thought" and these same factors, causes and conditions deeply influence what that thought of which we will be consciously aware of is. HERE is where the one's desires are generated.

The "heart" generates a desire, the "mind" recognizes, sometimes judges and/or arbitrates it. This is usually at this point, or later, that individuals become aware of having a desire. Often the "mind" then forms an "intent" based upon the arisen desire. By definition, this thought manifested as "intent" is evidenced by a cascade of neuro-chemical/electrical changes throughout the body/brain.

The "ki" seems to be related to the messenger/manifestation system.

The "power" is the result.

It should probably be recognized that the entire system can, and does, work backwards as well.

The power, leads the ki.

The ki leads the intent.

The intent leads the heart.

There is a feedback loop that can be, and usually is, mutually influencing. Hence the ability to learn.

Or not.

Quick two bits before dinner. (Just an observation, but it seems to me that most internal folks focus on "mind/intent - qi- power," whereas almost all the founders of internal arts (and many koryu) wind up speak of "heart" - and not in romantic terms.

Lorel Latorilla 03-27-2012 08:17 AM

Re: Heart leads mind, mind leads qi, qi leads strength
 
Quote:

Allen Beebe wrote: (Post 306460)
Brought to us by the same folks that "invented" IP and Aiki, and similarly dumbed down to a pale shadow of its former depth and profundity by the very institutions charged to protect it, the great Indian meditative traditions knew and worked with "the mind" at a much "higher definition" than most are aware of.

Using the first phrasing presented:

"The heart leads mind, the mind leads qi, the qi leads the power."

The "heart" can be constituted of a multitude of pre-conscious factors and conditions. For example general genetic components that cause us to be human as opposed to something else carry with it conditions that cause us to interact with the world in certain predictable ways. There are also environmental, social, cultural, temporal and genetic factors that can profoundly influence how, what, why and the quality of our pre-conscious cognition. Also included at the conscious and sub-conscious levels there are influences from Language, past experiences, our judgments and narratives about the past experiences, etc. There is more that can be written but hopefully I've made laid out the general idea. (This of course is a huge continuum from broad and "impersonal" to the highly personal.)

All of these factors, causes and conditions interact and mutually influence on another before one is normally even consciously aware of "having a thought" and these same factors, causes and conditions deeply influence what that thought of which we will be consciously aware of is. HERE is where the one's desires are generated.

The "heart" generates a desire, the "mind" recognizes, sometimes judges and/or arbitrates it. This is usually at this point, or later, that individuals become aware of having a desire. Often the "mind" then forms an "intent" based upon the arisen desire. By definition, this thought manifested as "intent" is evidenced by a cascade of neuro-chemical/electrical changes throughout the body/brain.

The "ki" seems to be related to the messenger/manifestation system.

The "power" is the result.

It should probably be recognized that the entire system can, and does, work backwards as well.

The power, leads the ki.

The ki leads the intent.

The intent leads the heart.

There is a feedback loop that can be, and usually is, mutually influencing. Hence the ability to learn.

Or not.

Quick two bits before dinner. (Just an observation, but it seems to me that most internal folks focus on "mind/intent - qi- power," whereas almost all the founders of internal arts (and many koryu) wind up speak of "heart" - and not in romantic terms.

Allen, very interesting, thank you.

Obviously this applies to everything, and for the purposes of this thread, I am mostly curious about movement and how this psycho-physical progression affects movement and re-train movement.

I feel that "heart" is a given--I mean for those that don't have it, or more accurately, if their hearts generate a desire that is different from what they are "supposed" to do, then obviously the mind itself won't really follow, it won't carve out the particular "pathways", if you will. Essentially, it is absolutely useless to teach someone the more subtle details of the mind-intent-qi-power-stuff if they do not have the will/heart for it. I can understand that internal peeps talk a lot about "mind-intent-qi-power" stuff because their desire to learn, to survive, to live, to improve their bodies, etc. is a given--all they need to do now is to work out the mechanics that will allow them to "fulfill" the desires of their heart/will.

I am interested in what context those comments about the "heart" were made. Perhaps their students lacked a little heart, and therefore couldnt really progress as students? Perhaps they lacked that killer instinct that necessitates a cleverness that leads them to discoveries that will refine their heart, usage of qi, and thus strength?

gregstec 03-27-2012 09:24 AM

Re: Heart leads mind, mind leads qi, qi leads strength
 
Quote:

Lorel Latorilla wrote: (Post 306488)
Allen, very interesting, thank you.

Obviously this applies to everything, and for the purposes of this thread, I am mostly curious about movement and how this psycho-physical progression affects movement and re-train movement.

I feel that "heart" is a given--I mean for those that don't have it, or more accurately, if their hearts generate a desire that is different from what they are "supposed" to do, then obviously the mind itself won't really follow, it won't carve out the particular "pathways", if you will. Essentially, it is absolutely useless to teach someone the more subtle details of the mind-intent-qi-power-stuff if they do not have the will/heart for it. I can understand that internal peeps talk a lot about "mind-intent-qi-power" stuff because their desire to learn, to survive, to live, to improve their bodies, etc. is a given--all they need to do now is to work out the mechanics that will allow them to "fulfill" the desires of their heart/will.

I am interested in what context those comments about the "heart" were made. Perhaps their students lacked a little heart, and therefore couldnt really progress as students? Perhaps they lacked that killer instinct that necessitates a cleverness that leads them to discoveries that will refine their heart, usage of qi, and thus strength?

Everything is relative and you absolutly need to a have an interest in doing something - that is where the heart desire comes from to enable the motivation that gets the intent and ki to lead to the manifestation of an action.

Greg

Allen Beebe 03-27-2012 10:28 AM

Re: Heart leads mind, mind leads qi, qi leads strength
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 306492)
Everything is relative and you absolutly need to a have an interest in doing something - that is where the heart desire comes from to enable the motivation that gets the intent and ki to lead to the manifestation of an action.

Greg

The catch is that for Aiki in particular our normal motivation is mis appropriated. In otherwords, if one wishes to "over come," "prevail," "dominate," "kill," or even "love" it usually screws up the Aiki process as one's heart, mind/intent, ki, body becomes linearly directed and expresses that desire a "normal" way. It is paradoxical. The more one wishes to accomplish one's goal, the more the goal must be to accomplish Aiki within one's self. Masa Katsu A Katsu.

Folks wanting what they want strongly are a dime a billion.

Allen Beebe 03-27-2012 10:30 AM

Re: Heart leads mind, mind leads qi, qi leads strength
 
I observe that successful instructors of internals use a pedagogy of working back up the chain: body - ki - mind/intent - heart. In other words, almost all successful teachers meet their students where they are "at" and slowly lead them into greater/deeper understanding so that practice can become increasingly productive. The least successful instructors of internals use a pedagogy that insists that students meet the teacher where they are "at." This isn't necessarily motivated by ill will BTW. I suspect that many teachers want the best for their students and therefore try to (unsuccessfully) jump straight into "the best stuff." This usually ends with a bunch of students operating where they are "at" imitating the outer form reflected by where the teacher is "at."

So a good teacher ends up starting by introducing their students to outer forms of one kind or another (usually ones that a teacher thinks will be easier to bridge back up the chain with) leading them to discover the connection between those movements and the students ki, [some claim not to teach any form . . . and then proceed to demonstrate something that the student copies the form of] intent/mind, and finally heart. Paradoxically, of course, while this is all going on, everyone is acting via the heart - mind/intent, ki, body chain.

I just find it interesting to note that many individuals noted for internal accomplishments share a similar quality of finding that their practice leads them to recognize profound connections beyond just those within their bodies. {There is also sometimes a cultural component that dictates that "accomplished teachers" must leave some profundities, and so they attempt to do so. I'm not writing about this phenomenon here.}

One more thing, I guess that many individuals pursue these studies with a primary motivation of trying to assuage deeply seated fears or to satisfy a profound sense of emptiness. The results of their practice will vary widely due to their primary motivation which they are in all likelihood be completely unaware of. In other words, the choices that an individual makes in their teachers, training, and even understandings (how they view reality) will be fundamentally influenced by their primary motivation. Most individuals will start out in this manner, some will change along the way, many, will not.

It has been pointed out that "men of war" have the primary (heart level) motivation to change at a profound level. Outer circumstances create a "life nexus" which can be leveraged into profound change. (There is also built in quality control.) For many individuals today, this "motivation" is (thankfully) not present. Therefore, one must have somehow create the same motivation inwardly to create that same life changing nexus. This is far easier said than done BTW. Most individuals experience this type of nexus during times of death, birth, divorce, etc. Some leverage them well, others bumble through them blindly a continuous victim of their own ignorance. Theoretically, every moment is such a nexus (folks are dying, being born, divorced, married, etc. every moment) which is why there is the potential to change profoundly at any time. Most of us just slog along though.

It isn't spoken of very often, particularly in "popular modern arts" but many traditions "fast track" this at a certain point of a student's evolution by forcing them into a nexus type situation . . . in other words they purposefully create a life threatening situation that can then be leveraged. Of course this can, and has, been mis-used. In some cases, this misuse has even been institutionalized . . . and so it goes.

Anyway, as they say, "The longest journey begins with the first step." I've been talking (out my ass to the degree that I haven't embodied all that I have talked about) about the journey rather than the essential "first step."

Of course, in that the journey will never be complete without a first step, the first step "contains" the potentiality of the entire journey within it. Kind of like "ichi" in shodo, or kiri otoshi in in ken (or seigan, or kamae, or . . .), or Ikkyo or, blah, blah, blah.

Once again, I recommend finding someone that "can do." Then combine that with hard work in the body and mind. (Think for yourself critically and check empirically.) Test that you are not just propping up your own delusions , and then test again, and again.

I'm on Daddy duty, and so my thoughts are rambling and divided. My apologies!

gregstec 03-27-2012 10:44 AM

Re: Heart leads mind, mind leads qi, qi leads strength
 
Quote:

Allen Beebe wrote: (Post 306493)
The catch is that for Aiki in particular our normal motivation is mis appropriated. In otherwords, if one wishes to "over come," "prevail," "dominate," "kill," or even "love" it usually screws up the Aiki process as one's heart, mind/intent, ki, body becomes linearly directed and expresses that desire a "normal" way. It is paradoxical. The more one wishes to accomplish one's goal, the more the goal must be to accomplish Aiki within one's self. Masa Katsu A Katsu.

Folks wanting what they want strongly are a dime a billion.

Who has been talking about aiki? I have been simply talking about a general process that leads to any action. Now your motivation for aiki may be misappropriated, but mine is focused on the actions that I have been taught will help developed my aiki - and of course, we all know that is aiki in me before aiki in you and me :)

Greg

Allen Beebe 03-27-2012 10:51 AM

Re: Heart leads mind, mind leads qi, qi leads strength
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 306496)
Who has been talking about aiki? I have been simply talking about a general process that leads to any action. Now your motivation for aiki may be misappropriated, but mine is focused on the actions that I have been taught will help developed my aiki - and of course, we all know that is aiki in me before aiki in you and me :)

Greg

"Test that you are not just propping up your own delusions, and then test again, and again."

Who is on second. What is on third.

~ I, me, mine :hypno:

Allen Beebe 03-27-2012 10:58 AM

Re: Heart leads mind, mind leads qi, qi leads strength
 
For IP/Aiki is it necessary to always be self-centered?

;) :D

Allen

gregstec 03-27-2012 11:12 AM

Re: Heart leads mind, mind leads qi, qi leads strength
 
Quote:

Allen Beebe wrote: (Post 306497)
"Test that you are not just propping up your own delusions, and then test again, and again."

Who is on second. What is on third.

~ I, me, mine :hypno:

"When a writer tries to explain too much, he's out of time before he begins."
― Isaac Bashevis Singer"
:crazy:

Allen Beebe 03-27-2012 11:36 AM

Re: Heart leads mind, mind leads qi, qi leads strength
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 306500)
"When a writer tries to explain too much, he's out of time before he begins."
― Isaac Bashevis Singer"
:crazy:

OMG that is me and communication in a nutshell! In fact I just open my mouth and Dan starts making fun of me. It works better if I have an interpreter. :(

At least YOU understand me Greg! :p

(I have that to look forward to in just a few days! Allen = comic relief)

gregstec 03-27-2012 11:47 AM

Re: Heart leads mind, mind leads qi, qi leads strength
 
Quote:

Allen Beebe wrote: (Post 306501)
OMG that is me and communication in a nutshell! In fact I just open my mouth and Dan starts making fun of me. It works better if I have an interpreter. :(

At least YOU understand me Greg! :p

(I have that to look forward to in just a few days! Allen = comic relief)

It is a curse I have :eek:

Have fun with the big guy :D

Greg


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