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-   -   Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21034)

Chris Li 03-21-2012 01:54 AM

Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
New blog post - "Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki / 一霊四魂三元八力". Enjoy!

http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/...f-the-universe

Best,

Chris

Carl Thompson 03-21-2012 02:14 AM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
Hello Chris

Is there a connection between Omoto and the eight trigrams found around the Chinese yin-yang symbol?

Regards

Carl

Chris Li 03-21-2012 02:32 AM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
Quote:

Carl Thompson wrote: (Post 306123)
Hello Chris

Is there a connection between Omoto and the eight trigrams found around the Chinese yin-yang symbol?

Regards

Carl

That's a good question - I don't know enough about Omoto to say definitively, but much of the cosmology (the eight powers for example) also appears in Omoto.

It's tempting to say that Omoto is, then, the source of Ueshiba's ideas and/or martial power, but I tend not to think so, since the cosmology is common throughout Japanese culture and martial training (including, for example, Daito-ryu).

Best,

Chris

Carl Thompson 03-21-2012 08:44 AM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
As I understand it, the hachiriki are not common in other forms of Shinto. If the hachiriki of Omoto do correspond to Chinese trigrams then I wonder if new light might be shed on Osensei's trips to Manchuria with Deguchi. I also wonder if the hachiriki crop up in any of Takeda's training.

Regards

Carl

Fred Little 03-21-2012 10:16 AM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
Quote:

The Kanji at the top right read "The Void". The Kanji on the bottom right read ("the thickness of a single piece of paper"). The Kanji in the right side of the diagram read "Emptiness" and "Matter" (i.e. "Heaven" and "Earth"). In the center is the single Katakana character "Yu", which in Kotodama terms stands for the harmony of Fire and Water (i.e. "In" and "Yo").
Chris,

Interesting stuff. FWIW, the "ichi-rei etc." formulation is found in some Shinto lines other than Oomoto (sorry, no references at hand -- later). For my money, what was original about Deguchi's presentation was the particular mix and dramatic presentation of a wide range of elements gathered from earlier traditions, rather than any particular innovation specific to Oomoto.

The comparison of the drawings near the close is particularly suggestive. I don't want to quibble, and perhaps my eyes aren't as reliable as they once were, but that single Katakana character in the center looks to me as if it is "Su" and not "Yu." But I'm not sure this possible variance has much effect on the totality of your presentation.

Best,

Fred

Chris Li 03-21-2012 10:18 AM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
Quote:

Carl Thompson wrote: (Post 306134)
As I understand it, the hachiriki are not common in other forms of Shinto. If the hachiriki of Omoto do correspond to Chinese trigrams then I wonder if new light might be shed on Osensei's trips to Manchuria with Deguchi. I also wonder if the hachiriki crop up in any of Takeda's training.

Regards

Carl

It may - but my hunch is that the methodology was already in place by the time those trips occurred. Note that Kiichi Hogen (from the 1100's) was familiar with that cosmology - so there's no need to go back to pre-war China as a source for the information.

Best,

Chris

Ellis Amdur 03-21-2012 10:20 AM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
One doesn't have to go to Mongolia - which was certainly not a study trip anyway - to find such elements in neo-Shinto. For example, the Misogi-kai exercises were mostly derived from Chinese qigong exercises. Pretty much all the common Taoist doctrines were available in Japan: through Kampo (Chinese medicine), through Taoist texts in Buddhist doctrine, through Taoist elements in neo-Confucianism, through martial arts texts. Wondering where Deguchi might have found doctrine like Hachiriki is like wondering how the heck Americans ever heard of Shakespeare, given that the guy lived all the way in England.

OTOH - the question if similar language/doctrine was used in Daito-ryu is interesting. Old wine in new bottles? Or a direct transfer of the wine-cellar?

Ellis Amdur

Chris Li 03-21-2012 10:28 AM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
Quote:

Fred Little wrote: (Post 306147)
Chris,

Interesting stuff. FWIW, the "ichi-rei etc." formulation is found in some Shinto lines other than Oomoto (sorry, no references at hand -- later). For my money, what was original about Deguchi's presentation was the particular mix and dramatic presentation of a wide range of elements gathered from earlier traditions, rather than any particular innovation specific to Oomoto.

The comparison of the drawings near the close is particularly suggestive. I don't want to quibble, and perhaps my eyes aren't as reliable as they once were, but that single Katakana character in the center looks to me as if it is "Su" and not "Yu." But I'm not sure this possible variance has much effect on the totality of your presentation.

Best,

Fred

You may be right, I blew it up, but I can't tell in my scanned copy (although it looks like "Yu" to me it could really be either one) - in either case Ueshiba's cosmology "Su" pierces the void and moves to "U", which manifests as the two "In" and "Yo" opposing forces (added a note to the blog).

Thanks Fred!

Best,

Chris

Josh Lerner 03-21-2012 11:41 AM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
Chris,

I don't know if you've discussed this, or are going to discuss this, but this quote -

八力は、対照力「動、静、解、凝、引、弛、合、分、」「9-1、8-2、7-3、6-4」をいいます。

- shows further connection to Chinese cosmology. The numbers, when paired in that way, are expressing opposite relationships across the magic square that is at the heart of many aspects of Chinese cosmology:



Josh

Chris Li 03-21-2012 11:57 AM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
Quote:

Josh Lerner wrote: (Post 306154)
Chris,

I don't know if you've discussed this, or are going to discuss this, but this quote -

八力は、対照力「動、静、解、凝、引、弛、合、分、」「9-1、8-2、7-3、6-4」をいいます。

- shows further connection to Chinese cosmology. The numbers, when paired in that way, are expressing opposite relationships across the magic square that is at the heart of many aspects of Chinese cosmology:



Josh

Very nice! I mentioned the numbers in the Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido post, but I didn't really get into any of the implications there except to point out the obvious In/Yo connection. I didn't want to overwhelm things with too much information at once. Just one more thing to do....

Isn't it interesting how all of these things fit together consistently?

Best,

Chris

Carl Thompson 03-21-2012 08:23 PM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 306148)
It may - but my hunch is that the methodology was already in place by the time those trips occurred. Note that Kiichi Hogen (from the 1100's) was familiar with that cosmology - so there's no need to go back to pre-war China as a source for the information.

Best,

Chris

I am unfamiliar with the hachiriki outside of an Omoto/aikido context. I'd be especially interested in any examples from the shrines Takeda is said to have trained at. I agree that Omoto would have had their system well-established by the time Deguchi went to prewar China, but I am curious to know if some of the Shinto concepts were not so commonplace in Japan but well-established in the choice for a Utopian colony. Also, where would Osensei have first encountered hachiriki?

Thanks for your research and comments so far

Carl

Chris Li 03-21-2012 08:53 PM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
Quote:

Carl Thompson wrote: (Post 306186)
I am unfamiliar with the hachiriki outside of an Omoto/aikido context. I'd be especially interested in any examples from the shrines Takeda is said to have trained at. I agree that Omoto would have had their system well-established by the time Deguchi went to prewar China, but I am curious to know if some of the Shinto concepts were not so commonplace in Japan but well-established in the choice for a Utopian colony. Also, where would Osensei have first encountered hachiriki?

Thanks for your research and comments so far

Carl

600 years before Osensei, Kiichi Hogen had a reputation as an expert in Onmyodo - which was introduced to Japan even earlier than that. There's also this interesting book that was recommended to me but that I haven't read yet.

Anyway, it's easy to see that these concepts would have been well known in Japan, especially to Morihei Ueshiba, who was educated in a Shingon temple and grew up reading classical texts.

Interestingly, Soemon Takeda was also a student of Onmyodo.

No need even to go to Omoto-kyo for a source.

It may well be, however, that the confluence of Daito-ryu In-Yo methods with Omoto-kyo beliefs had an influence on Ueshiba's conceptualization of Aikido.

Best,

Chris

Carl Thompson 03-22-2012 05:24 PM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 306188)
No need even to go to Omoto-kyo for a source.

Just to be clear, I didn't intend to come across as doubting you when I said I was unfamiliar with the hachiriki outside of Omoto. I just wanted to indicate my lack of knowledge before thanking you for the research you are doing.
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 306188)
Interestingly, Soemon Takeda was also a student of Onmyodo.

I imagine I haven't done anywhere near as much study into this as some of the big guns on this forum so please forgive me if I state anything obvious in my observations or get too tedious in my questions. According to an account by Hisa, it is said that Hoshina, Takeda's father and Takeda himself also learned Onmyodo from Soemon. Although I could understand that Onmyodo was the "way of yin and yang" from the Kanji (陰陽道) I never came across any references to the hachiriki in descriptions of it. It is closely connected to esoteric Buddhism which Takeda later went out of his way to study.

Thanks again for your comments and the book reference in particular.

Carl

Chris Li 03-22-2012 05:37 PM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
Quote:

Carl Thompson wrote: (Post 306239)
Just to be clear, I didn't intend to come across as doubting you when I said I was unfamiliar with the hachiriki outside of Omoto. I just wanted to indicate my lack of knowledge before thanking you for the research you are doing.

I imagine I haven't done anywhere near as much study into this as some of the big guns on this forum so please forgive me if I state anything obvious in my observations or get too tedious in my questions. According to an account by Hisa, it is said that Hoshina, Takeda's father and Takeda himself also learned Onmyodo from Soemon. Although I could understand that Onmyodo was the "way of yin and yang" from the Kanji (陰陽") I never came across any references to the hachiriki in descriptions of it. It is closely connected to esoteric Buddhism which Takeda later went out of his way to study.

Thanks again for your comments and the book reference in particular.

Carl

Oh no, no problem - sorry if it sounded that way.

Onmyodo in Japan is basically the Chinese Yin/Yang cosmology, usually as in divination (ala the I Ching). There's also a lot of weird mythology in modern Japanese pop culture surrounding it.

Anyway, it's all tied together with Yin/Yang, Five Elements, and the Eight Trigrams. Those things are also tied in with the Chinese martial training methodology, so the references have existed commonly in Japan for a long time (6th century, I think).

Best,

Chris

Carsten Mllering 03-23-2012 04:14 AM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
In the dissertation of Margaret Greenhalgh: "Aikido and Spirituality: Japanese Religious Influences in a Martial Art" she states a direct connection Daoism and moto kyo because of Ushitora no Konjin being of daoist origin.
(I can't give the page from here. It's in at the beginning of the chapter about the daoist influences on aikid.)

I can't value this.
But the parts of this work, which I can judge seem to be build on profound research.

Chris Li 03-23-2012 10:20 AM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
Quote:

Carsten Mllering wrote: (Post 306256)
In the dissertation of Margaret Greenhalgh: "Aikido and Spirituality: Japanese Religious Influences in a Martial Art" she states a direct connection Daoism and moto kyo because of Ushitora no Konjin being of daoist origin.
(I can't give the page from here. It's in at the beginning of the chapter about the daoist influences on aikid.)

I can't value this.
But the parts of this work, which I can judge seem to be build on profound research.

Interesting - did she work from English sources?

Best,

Chris

Carsten Mllering 03-23-2012 03:45 PM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
Arrrrgh, just looked it up:
"Nor may many pracitioners be aware, that Ushitora-no-Konjin, the folk deity who inspiredt the foundress of moto and whom Ueshib revered daily at a small shrine in Iwama, was of Daoist origin."
But for this statement she gives no source, just states it.

She then compares the daoist internal alchemy and also cosmology to Ueshibas understanding of aikid. I haven't read it yet. It's on my list ...
It seems to me she walks the same direction like you do in your blogposts. But while you pick up one piece of the puzzle at a time and look at it in detail, she tries to give an overview.

Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 306268)
Interesting - did she work from English sources?

There are three primary sources in Japanese:
Sunadomari Kanemoto: Aikid kaiso, Tokyo 1969
Ueshiba Kisshomaru: Aikid kaiso, Tokyo 1999
Ueshiba Morihei: Takemusu aiki, ed. Takahashi Hideo, Tokyo1986

There are two or three more among the secondary sources, but most is English or French. And most of them you will know, I think. And Aiki News or Aikido Journal is cited a lot ...

Chris Li 03-23-2012 04:26 PM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
Quote:

Carsten M�llering wrote: (Post 306293)
Arrrrgh, just looked it up:
"Nor may many pracitioners be aware, that Ushitora-no-Konjin, the folk deity who inspiredt the foundress of �moto and whom Ueshib revered daily at a small shrine in Iwama, was of Daoist origin."
But for this statement she gives no source, just states it.

She then compares the daoist internal alchemy and also cosmology to Ueshibas understanding of aikid�. I haven't read it yet. It's on my list ...
It seems to me she walks the same direction like you do in your blogposts. But while you pick up one piece of the puzzle at a time and look at it in detail, she tries to give an overview.

There are three primary sources in Japanese:
Sunadomari Kanemoto: Aikid� kaiso, Tokyo 1969
Ueshiba Kisshomaru: Aikid� kaiso, Tokyo 1999
Ueshiba Morihei: Takemusu aiki, ed. Takahashi Hideo, Tokyo1986

There are two or three more among the secondary sources, but most is English or French. And most of them you will know, I think. And Aiki News or Aikido Journal is cited a lot ...

Thanks Karsten!

Best,

Chris

Peter Goldsbury 03-28-2012 07:12 AM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
Quote:

Carsten Mllering wrote: (Post 306256)
In the dissertation of Margaret Greenhalgh: "Aikido and Spirituality: Japanese Religious Influences in a Martial Art" she states a direct connection Daoism and moto kyo because of Ushitora no Konjin being of daoist origin.
(I can't give the page from here. It's in at the beginning of the chapter about the daoist influences on aikid.)

I can't value this.
But the parts of this work, which I can judge seem to be build on profound research.

Hello Carsten,

I have mixed feelings about Margaret Greenhalgh’s book. The way she cites some Japanese works, both in the text and in the bibliography, is sometimes very odd and offers evidence that she has not used the Japanese originals. For example, on p. 9 we find this statement: “A more comprehensive presentation [sc. of Morihei Ueshiba’s thought] is given in the four lectures published in 1986 as Takemusu Aiki and in The Secret Teachings of Aikido.” She gives a footnote with the Japanese details of Takemusu Aiki, but should then be aware that this book contains much more than ‘four lectures’. There is no mention at all of Aiki Shinzui, of which The Secret Teachings is a translation. The fact that she seems to be relying on translations that are plausibly quite dubious suggests that she has not considered this possibility--that much of what has come down as Morihei Ueshiba's thought has not been presented accurately.

Best wishes,

PAG

Rob Watson 03-28-2012 11:24 AM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 306550)
that much of what has come down as Morihei Ueshiba's thought has not been presented accurately.

Tangent: I was quite amused when I found an oldish journal of mine upon re-reading I found that the ideas/thoughts I was trying to convey were completely garbled and out of whack from what I was actually thinking and attempting to convey! I'm not such a great writer but even the autobiographical endeavor was, at best, a twisted and distorted facsimile of the originally intended product.

Considering translations of second hand materials of things likely not really meant to be written down and used as reference materials ... folly?

Chris Li 04-22-2014 04:39 PM

Re: Aikido and the Structure of the Universe - Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki
 
"Aikido and the Structure of the Universe" is now available in Romanian, courtesy of Aikido Jurnal:

The original English version is available here.

Best,

Chris


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