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ChrisMoses 03-15-2012 12:26 PM

Muneta and aiki
 
Muneta vs. van der Geest

For those of you who know me on Facebook, you've probably already seen this, but I thought there was some interesting stuff in this video that might be worth discussing.

I have a few specific points in the video I'd like to call out but first the disclaimers: I've certainly never felt this guy, I don't know anything about his training methodology and I am not asserting that he has "IT" or does "IT". I do think there are moments in this video that look like IT (which for me means DR-like Aiki powered by frame/structure/IP/fairy dust/whatever). There is also what I would call the aiKi of Aikido as most people use the term. I am using those terms descriptively the way I would use colors (red, blue) rather than one is good, one is bad. They're both good, they can both work (as you see in the video). They aren't mutually exclusive, but they are different terms. As always, not saying that's how it *should* be or always was, just recognizing the terms as they are used and to the best of my understanding.

So the breakdown.

1) First point, crap that's an awesome bout!

2) ~2:10 you see his body enter fully as a unit. He doesn't need to step and regain himself, his whole frame simply pops forward about a foot. Again, I'm not saying, "Yup, clearly IT" but I do consider a movement like that to be indicative of genuine frame/structure. I don't however think it's necessarily "Aiki" because of how the movement affects (or doesn't affect in this case) van der Geest. Hard to say on a video.

3) ~2:30 Here you see vdG basically bounce off of Muneta's frame, he comes in for a throw and hits a wall that sends him down. I think you could make the case that this indeed was Aiki. Frame affected the other person very dynamically. It's video, we'll never know, but it's interesting.

4) ~3:20 van der Geest is clearly leaning way forward but Muneta is nearly perfectly vertical. Yup, again, good indicator. Good stuff...

5) ~5:20 van der Geest pops in for a throw (makikomi?) and again bounces off of Muneta who is still fairly upright. He didn't need to sprawl to completely thwart vdG.

6) ~5:45 again we see vdG leaning way forward while Muneta is basically standing upright. The case could be made that Muneta is a lot shorter, and built like a shick brithouse, but there's at least the potential that there's something more going on here.

7) Here's where it happens! At around 7:15 Muneta loses his footing and goes down. Turtles up, ref calls it. As vdG is stepping over him, you can see him heel kick him in the back. Ooh, bad form old chap. Muneta pops up and immediately stomps towards vdG. Just as they're about to make contact, Muneta just disappears out of the way and directs cdG face first at the floor. Properly pasted, he proceeds to roll him back over. End of match. Brilliant! Just freaking brilliant! I don't however think of this as a good example of Aiki (DR-like frame based Aiki) but rather of aiKi as people generally use the term in aikido. He matched his timing, and managed to exaggerate mdG's entry force just enough to completely off balance him. Example of internal power/skills? No. Example of martial awesomeness? ABSOLUTELY.

Take aways:
- frame/structure does not equate to Aiki or aiKi
- Aiki is not always intrinsically better than aiKi
- aiKi can be done with Aiki, but being able to do aiKi does not mean that you have Aiki. :D
- aiKi can be martially effective
- never kick Muneta in the back, ever...

chillzATL 03-15-2012 02:06 PM

Re: Muneta and aiki
 
well, they're both big dudes, but Muneta clearly knows how to use his bulk in a much more efficient way than VDG. He connects and drops his weight several times in the bout where VDG is constantly stretched out, yanking, pulling, etc to connect, unbalance and throw. He over-extends himself constantly and against someone who doesn't over-extend, he's just going to bounce off him and/or wear himself out in the process.

mathewjgano 03-15-2012 06:10 PM

Re: Muneta and aiki
 
Not that I can judge great movement well, but I really like the way Muneta moves; that was really fun to watch! Also, that was an interesting distinction you made between frame/connection and aiki, Chris. Thanks for posting this!

David Orange 03-15-2012 07:33 PM

Re: Muneta and aiki
 
Quote:

Christian Moses wrote: (Post 305573)
Muneta vs. van der Geest

2) ~2:10 you see his body enter fully as a unit. He doesn't need to step and regain himself, his whole frame simply pops forward about a foot. Again, I'm not saying, "Yup, clearly IT" but I do consider a movement like that to be indicative of genuine frame/structure. I don't however think it's necessarily "Aiki" because of how the movement affects (or doesn't affect in this case) van der Geest. Hard to say on a video.

The first thing that caught my eye was around 20-22 seconds, how Muneta is already difficult for the bigger guy to move.

All the way through the first minute, he's very hard to move and very upright. That was the kind of thing I felt in both judo and aikido with Mochizuki Sensei's best people. I pointed this out in some of the clips of Washizu doing gyokushinryu on the sutemi thread.

The judo teacher's teenage son became hard to move like that in a period of several months.

But in the video, I kept thinking that Muneta would go for an udemaki sutemi when his left arm was under vdg's right arm such as at 1:18 and 3:43 to 3:46 or so. I also saw a moment where Mochizuki's method would have ended in motare komi sutemi, sliding one leg behnd both of uke's legs and while trapping his arm, as at 5:53-5:54. And he does use a sutemi-like escape at about 4:24. If he could capture that smoothness, he could find other techniques. But I'm not saying I could beat him or that Mochizuki's aiki is the only thing. Just that this has the uprightness and hard-to-move qualities his people had.

And, of course, that final technique was really cool!

He was great.

And your other comments are interesting as well.

Thanks for posting that. I didn't see it on Facebook.

David

ashe 03-18-2012 08:40 PM

Re: Muneta and aiki
 
interesting match. i'm over 100kg myself, but those guys looked pretty big. reminds me of when i was fighting San Da at weigh in's. You'd always think "d@mn that dude looks huge" and find out later he went into the 185 division. lol.

Quote:

Christian Moses wrote: (Post 305573)
Take aways:
- frame/structure does not equate to Aiki or aiKi
- Aiki is not always intrinsically better than aiKi
- aiKi can be done with Aiki, but being able to do aiKi does not mean that you have Aiki. :D
- aiKi can be martially effective
- never kick Muneta in the back, ever...

quick question, what do you distinguish as Aiki v. aiKi?

bob_stra 03-18-2012 11:39 PM

Re: Muneta and aiki
 
Quote:

2) ~2:10 you see his body enter fully as a unit. He doesn't need to step and regain himself, his whole frame simply pops forward about a foot. Again, I'm not saying, "Yup, clearly IT" but I do consider a movement like that to be indicative of genuine frame/structure. I don't however think it's necessarily "Aiki" because of how the movement affects (or doesn't affect in this case) van der Geest. Hard to say on a video.
Hmm. I think it's just an artifact of the way Muneta attempted the foot sweep / entry. For example, take a look at this Osoto-gari clip -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evBONOrPZdc

Look at the shadow uchikomi practice at say, 0:30, Then see how it maps onto the throw at 1:30, 2:12 etc. Not everyone does osotogari quite like that, so not everyone looks like they're entering with "the whole frame"

BTW, I think this clip of DaCosta shows another good instance of these things (though I admit I have somewhat of a fascination with him)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F90OzaNSu7M

OTOH, compare to what you see here at 4:04 - this, I would consider a pretty interesting action-reaction

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9kFxPuRYSg


Quote:

3) ~2:30 Here you see vdG basically bounce off of Muneta's frame, he comes in for a throw and hits a wall that sends him down. I think you could make the case that this indeed was Aiki. Frame affected the other person very dynamically. It's video, we'll never know, but it's interesting.
I think he just made a poor entry into a throw / Muneta stuffed it; his leg position is 'off'' if you look at how he (vDG) ends up on the floor at 2:31

Quote:

4) ~3:20 van der Geest is clearly leaning way forward but Muneta is nearly perfectly vertical. Yup, again, good indicator. Good stuff...
Perhaps, Equally likely is that vDG employs a more European style of play, using unorthodox stance, grip and entries Eg:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLOABaMTwKI

FWIW. ICBW. Etc

sakumeikan 03-19-2012 04:27 AM

Re: Muneta and aiki
 
Dear All,
I cannot remember a more boring Judo match.Both of these guys were in my opinion lacking any real judo skills. Muneta was upright , so his posture was a bit better than the Dutchman.The Dutchman was leaning like the tower of Pisa.Neiher of the two put in any Big Shots. Muneta never one tried Uchi Mata, Seoi nage >The only time I saw a half decent attempt was the KoSoto gari by The Dutch guy.There was no groundwork attempted by either.Absolutely boring match.Like watching paint dry.
If anyboy wants to see a Judo match, where one man is up against a man who outweighs him by stones/and is younger, take a look at Kenshiro Abbe vs Joe Robinson,
Cheers, Joe

bob_stra 03-19-2012 05:26 AM

Re: Muneta and aiki
 
Chris

You might like these for analysis. Watch the way Inoue absorbs movement, maintains uprightness, sinks weight etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiHS479uee8

A second, somewhat more spirited exchange

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6u5PTu3-q4

I think these could lead to some very good analyses

sakumeikan 03-19-2012 10:56 AM

Re: Muneta and aiki
 
Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 305945)
Chris

You might like these for analysis. Watch the way Inoue absorbs movement, maintains uprightness, sinks weight etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiHS479uee8

A second, somewhat more spirited exchange

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6u5PTu3-q4

I think these could lead to some very good analyses

Dear Bob,
In both cases the uke /s have terrible posture.The first vid uke is a left hander but is grip is noo good .He does not take an inside hold.This makes his waza less effective.The second guy has virtually no understanding of basic shintai, he me poorly.I agee that Inoue is coasting.He is not getting any real opposition from the two uke. Cheers, Joe

ChrisMoses 03-19-2012 11:07 AM

Re: Muneta and aiki
 
Quote:

Ashe Higgs wrote: (Post 305928)
quick question, what do you distinguish as Aiki v. aiKi?

The way I use the terms "Aiki" is frame/structure/IP based aiki, so more in line with how Daito Ryu uses the term. If you've read the translation of "Transparent Power" that's basically how I'm looking at "Aiki".

I use the term "aiKi" to describe what's been my experience is described as "aiki" in modern aikido where one blends and extends the energy/momentum/ki of an attacker to the defender's advantage. In the translation "Spirit of Aikido" Ueshiba Kisshomaru seems to assert that the real distinction between Daito Ryu (and other things that came before Aikido) was that OSensei changed the meaning of aiki. His assertion is that if you can harmonize with the Ki of the universe, you will be naturally led to the perfect end scenario. I feel that's been misunderstood as harmonizing with the ki/energy of the attacker. I disagree with this assertion, but feel it's the primary way of looking at aiki in Aikido, so I use the term "aiKi" to emPHAsize the primary role of Ki in this understanding of aiki.

Confusing... Hope that helps though.

ChrisMoses 03-19-2012 11:14 AM

Re: Muneta and aiki
 
Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 305944)
Dear All,
I cannot remember a more boring Judo match.Both of these guys were in my opinion lacking any real judo skills. [snip]

If anyboy wants to see a Judo match, where one man is up against a man who outweighs him by stones/and is younger, take a look at Kenshiro Abbe vs Joe Robinson,
Cheers, Joe

Are you talking about this clip?

It seems that the judo establishment disagrees with your assertion that Muneta is "lacking any real judo skills."

Wiki on Muneta

Quote:

...he has been elected as the "most excellent player" 4 years in a row at the All-Japan University Judo Championships (including Yamashita Yasuhiro, Masaki Yoshimi and Muneta Yasuyuki, there are only 5 athletes in the history of judo that have been elected "most excellent athlete" 4 years in a row).

bob_stra 03-19-2012 11:18 AM

Re: Muneta and aiki
 
Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 305965)
Dear Bob,
In both cases the uke /s have terrible posture.The first vid uke is a left hander but is grip is noo good .He does not take an inside hold.This makes his waza less effective.The second guy has virtually no understanding of basic shintai, he me poorly.I agee that Inoue is coasting.He is not getting any real opposition from the two uke. Cheers, Joe

Hi Joe

I agree with you. However, the more interesting part (and I think, in line with what Chris is trying to do) is to analyse how Inoue does what he does to his partners. The first clip is especially 'clean' in a way, because it involves so little in terms of grip fighting or tricky technique on Inoue's behalf.

-B

sakumeikan 03-19-2012 04:38 PM

Re: Muneta and aiki
 
Quote:

Christian Moses wrote: (Post 305972)
Are you talking about this clip?

It seems that the judo establishment disagrees with your assertion that Muneta is "lacking any real judo skills."

Wiki on Muneta

Dear Christian,
Yes this is indeed the clip I mentioned.
Now as far as Muneta is concerned I judged him and the Dutchman on the vid you presented.Neither of these two judoka imo come up to the standard of Anton Geesink ,Ruska , Kaminaga or Yamashita.Of course with new rules related to awarding points etc to judoka, the judoka nowadays are pretty defensive players especially the big guys. .You can hardly say that the bout between Muneta/the Dutch lad was exciting or action packed.Anton in his heyday would have had no trouble despatching both of these guys. Cheers, Joe.

bob_stra 03-20-2012 12:31 AM

Re: Muneta and aiki
 
Ok; so if we take it as a given that Ruska, Parisi etc of old moved and did things differently....what exactly were they doing (physically) that was different? How is Inoue able to do what he does (in the clips I cited)?

sakumeikan 03-20-2012 10:03 AM

Re: Muneta and aiki
 
Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 306038)
Ok; so if we take it as a given that Ruska, Parisi etc of old moved and did things differently....what exactly were they doing (physically) that was different? How is Inoue able to do what he does (in the clips I cited)?

Dear Bob,
The guys I mentioned were doing good solid Judo. People like Abbe Sensei /Kisaburo Watanabe were not bellringers [think Quasimodo ].They had nice posture ,They could move fluidly from attack to defence then to counter attack .Watanabe /Abbe were able to use Renrakuwaza.Ie O Uchi Gari /Tai otoshi, combination waza.If you have done Judo it is not too dificult to defend against attacks,Control of the mans centre line , utilise hip movement /body shifting to defend.Of course one can also use jigotai as a defence.Men like Abbe /Watanabe /Koga and Inokuma were masters at this type of defence.Abbe Sensei in particular rarely used Jigotai.He of course did KYU SHIN DO, a method of judo which was not in keeping with Kodokan judo.Abbe Sensei was also a student of O Sensei.In fact I met him and thanks to him I subsequently started Aikido.
My own Judo teacher [I trained with him for 13 years] was 5 ft 8 maybe 12/13 stone.He was also 90 % disabled.When he walked down the ro ad , he shuffled.In the dojo , he was transformed.In all the years I knew him I never saw him being thrown by anybody.When you attacked him you felt you were hitting a brick wall.He never used big stiff arms or crouched . Sad to say he is not remembered by most .One of his contempories George Kerr has been awarded Judan.
There are some old video of Judo posted on Youtube by Jan Snyders [a Dutch Judoka of the 70s] who trained with Geesink.He also had a twin brother who also trained in Judo
Cheers, Joe.

ashe 03-20-2012 08:23 PM

Re: Muneta and aiki
 
Quote:

Christian Moses wrote: (Post 305971)
The way I use the terms "Aiki" is frame/structure/IP based aiki, so more in line with how Daito Ryu uses the term. If you've read the translation of "Transparent Power" that's basically how I'm looking at "Aiki".

it's on my wish list right now. used copies are going for $50!

Quote:

Christian Moses wrote: (Post 305971)
I use the term "aiKi" to describe what's been my experience is described as "aiki" in modern aikido where one blends and extends the energy/momentum/ki of an attacker to the defender's advantage...

Confusing... Hope that helps though.

no i get where you're coming from. thx.

Cady Goldfield 03-22-2012 12:24 AM

Re: Muneta and aiki
 
Quote:

Ashe Higgs wrote: (Post 306111)
it's on my wish list right now. used copies are going for $50! .

Go to the source, where it's still $34.95:
http://transparentpower.com/

ashe 03-22-2012 07:20 PM

Re: Muneta and aiki
 
Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 306195)
Go to the source, where it's still $34.95:
http://transparentpower.com/

w00t!


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