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notdrock 02-16-2012 10:39 PM

What is your art?
 
Hey,

Just been reading a lot of stuff on this forum that discusses Aikido and BJJ and how they can "help" each other.

So I'm curious.

Aikido is the art derived from Samurai Jiu-Jutsu, the foundational art of the Samurai who were sword-wielding, armour-clad death machines who needed to not just ground themselves to be the base of their swords, be as heavy as a mountain yet as swift as a river, but to be able to still fight tooth and nail if they ever lost their sword, against other sword-wielding, armour-clad death machines. In facing impending and greusome deaths, Samurai spawned one of the greatest Masters of all time, namely Miyamoto Musashi who not just produced some of the greatest martial strategies, art and petry in Japanese history, but also master fighting (ACTUAL fighting as in "I don't like you. I'm going to cut your head off now.", with not one but TWO kitana simultaneously...

BJJ is the Brazillian art (derived from Japanese Jiu-Jutsu) that fights swordless, armourless ruffians brawling in the street after a hard night on the piss, or those seeking fame and fortune in the media-fuelled cages that promote wealthy people watching poor people bash the crap out of each other. In not having to face impending and greusome death, BJJ spawned the Gracies.

How exactly are these two arts similar?

Sure, every martial art ought have similar principles in the basic structure of the art, but Aikido and Bjj, Miyamoto Musashi and the Gracies, are about the same as chalk and cheese in that they're both carbon-based forms.

Michael Hackett 02-16-2012 11:22 PM

Re: What is your art?
 
You must be making a point here somewhere.

Stephen Nichol 02-16-2012 11:49 PM

Re: What is your art?
 
Well the phrase: 'Many paths may lead to the same destination' comes to mind.

All though each style evolved from similar origins in Japanese martial arts in the past, they evolved asking different paths become what they are now. That being said, their common ancestry is what allows us to find the links in each of them that makes the 'cross application' possible.

The core use of body mechanics is similar. Just the approach on how to use then and the way one applies them in a situation may differ.

Just my thoughts based in what I observe in both my Aikido training and observation of MMA/BJJ seen and used in the ring. I have not trained in BJJ or MMA, only watch, observe, talk with those who do.

grondahl 02-17-2012 02:25 AM

Re: What is your art?
 
Quote:

Luke Hobbs wrote: (Post 303252)
Hey,

Just been reading a lot of stuff on this forum that discusses Aikido and BJJ and how they can "help" each other.

So I'm curious.

Aikido is the art derived from Samurai Jiu-Jutsu, the foundational art of the Samurai who were sword-wielding, armour-clad death machines who needed to not just ground themselves to be the base of their swords, be as heavy as a mountain yet as swift as a river, but to be able to still fight tooth and nail if they ever lost their sword, against other sword-wielding, armour-clad death machines. In facing impending and greusome deaths, Samurai spawned one of the greatest Masters of all time, namely Miyamoto Musashi who not just produced some of the greatest martial strategies, art and petry in Japanese history, but also master fighting (ACTUAL fighting as in "I don't like you. I'm going to cut your head off now.", with not one but TWO kitana simultaneously...

Aikido is actually based on Daito Ryu. Daito Ryu does not (to my knowledge) include training in armor and does not have to include any more real swordwork than aikido. Also, if you watch the posture and movement of aikido and Daito Ryu and compare it to older budo that actually has kata with armor you can see that the older forms have a distinct way of moving (ex very low stances) thatīs not reflected in either aikido or daito ryu which rather promotes a very straight posture. Also there is a lot of practices in older budo (ex forms of grappling) thats not included in the aiki arts. So your basic premise that "samurai fighting arts" = aikido seems to be a bit sketchy.

Quote:

BJJ is the Brazillian art (derived from Japanese Jiu-Jutsu) that fights swordless, armourless ruffians brawling in the street after a hard night on the piss, or those seeking fame and fortune in the media-fuelled cages that promote wealthy people watching poor people bash the crap out of each other. In not having to face impending and greusome death, BJJ spawned the Gracies.
Sure, bjj is not a art designed for the battlefield, but the Gracies were actually pretty wealthy and well educated. They treated jiujitsu more as a healthy lifestyle including a sensible diet (with heavy restrictions on alcohol). Many of their students as well since jujitsu was a rather expensive art to train in. You seriously need to read some interviews with some leading exponents of the art (ex Helio Gracie, Rickson Gracie or Saulo Ribeiro) before making up your mind on the subject.

Alic 02-17-2012 03:26 AM

Re: What is your art?
 
It's Katana, not Kitana. BJJ is inspired from Jujutsu, which is the samurai art. You really gotta polish up your basic knowledge man...

Either way, they aren't really similar, but they help each other in that they're both artforms that involves manipulating the human body, and gaining control of the other person. It's nice to be able to fight on the ground well as a budoka, and certainly BJJ isn't great while standing. In this way, you become more well rounded in fighting, and so gain a superiority in terms of pure combat prowess.

This is essentially true mixed martial arts, not the cagefighting that's all the rage now. Throwing away not just all rules, but also all politeness and respect, you must consider fighting in all forms, whether you are striking with long reach and far kicks, up close with elbows and knees, grappling and throwing, or even pinning and wrestling. Not all martial arts have all of these combined, so one answer to this problem is cross training.

Aikido came from Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, which came from the Takeda family jujutsu style. This is the original samurai art form, the jujutsu of the 18 arts of the samurai (kenjutsu, kyujutsu, bojutsu, etc.). In this case, samurai bushi's never had to fight on the ground, as once you fall in full armour, it's really difficult to get up again, and most fights aren't one on one, but in armies. If you fall with your opponent, your opponent's buddy will just stab you and help his friend up.

BJJ is meant for one on one. They don't really consider what happens when you get attacked by another person while pinning the first one, so that's one major weakness. But should an Aikidoka falls to the ground, he would certainly love to have BJJ backing him up.

I think it's best to gain a striking style like Bajiquan, Wing Chun, Karate, or Muay Thai (Muay Boran if you can get that, woo!), plus a wrestling form like BJJ or even Pankration (ancient styles FTW!), in addition to Aikido, I think would make a very complete and deadly MMA fighter. I'd love to see an Aikido based MMA fighter in the cage matches, just to shut the nay-sayers up. The old masters fought all challengers, why shouldn't we?

But I guess what I'm saying is there's similarity in that we're learning a fighting art, and that'll make you stronger regardless of how it fights.

Richard Stevens 02-17-2012 10:24 AM

Re: What is your art?
 
Quote:

Luke Hobbs wrote: (Post 303252)
Hey,

Just been reading a lot of stuff on this forum that discusses Aikido and BJJ and how they can "help" each other.

So I'm curious.

Aikido is the art derived from Samurai Jiu-Jutsu, the foundational art of the Samurai who were sword-wielding, armour-clad death machines who needed to not just ground themselves to be the base of their swords, be as heavy as a mountain yet as swift as a river, but to be able to still fight tooth and nail if they ever lost their sword, against other sword-wielding, armour-clad death machines. In facing impending and greusome deaths, Samurai spawned one of the greatest Masters of all time, namely Miyamoto Musashi who not just produced some of the greatest martial strategies, art and petry in Japanese history, but also master fighting (ACTUAL fighting as in "I don't like you. I'm going to cut your head off now.", with not one but TWO kitana simultaneously...

BJJ is the Brazillian art (derived from Japanese Jiu-Jutsu) that fights swordless, armourless ruffians brawling in the street after a hard night on the piss, or those seeking fame and fortune in the media-fuelled cages that promote wealthy people watching poor people bash the crap out of each other. In not having to face impending and greusome death, BJJ spawned the Gracies.

How exactly are these two arts similar?

Sure, every martial art ought have similar principles in the basic structure of the art, but Aikido and Bjj, Miyamoto Musashi and the Gracies, are about the same as chalk and cheese in that they're both carbon-based forms.

Koryu.com. It might be best to do some reading before posting something of this nature. :)

Demetrio Cereijo 02-17-2012 12:21 PM

Re: What is your art?
 
Quote:

Luke Hobbs wrote: (Post 303252)
Hey,

Just been reading a lot of stuff on this forum that discusses Aikido and BJJ and how they can "help" each other.

So I'm curious.

How exactly are these two arts similar?

IHTBF, so go into the closest BJJ and ask for a roll.

robin_jet_alt 02-17-2012 08:02 PM

Re: What is your art?
 
Quote:

Luke Hobbs wrote: (Post 303252)
Hey,

Just been reading a lot of stuff on this forum that discusses Aikido and BJJ and how they can "help" each other.

So I'm curious.

Aikido is the art derived from Samurai Jiu-Jutsu, the foundational art of the Samurai who were sword-wielding, armour-clad death machines who needed to not just ground themselves to be the base of their swords, be as heavy as a mountain yet as swift as a river, but to be able to still fight tooth and nail if they ever lost their sword, against other sword-wielding, armour-clad death machines. In facing impending and greusome deaths, Samurai spawned one of the greatest Masters of all time, namely Miyamoto Musashi who not just produced some of the greatest martial strategies, art and petry in Japanese history, but also master fighting (ACTUAL fighting as in "I don't like you. I'm going to cut your head off now.", with not one but TWO kitana simultaneously...

BJJ is the Brazillian art (derived from Japanese Jiu-Jutsu) that fights swordless, armourless ruffians brawling in the street after a hard night on the piss, or those seeking fame and fortune in the media-fuelled cages that promote wealthy people watching poor people bash the crap out of each other. In not having to face impending and greusome death, BJJ spawned the Gracies.

How exactly are these two arts similar?

Sure, every martial art ought have similar principles in the basic structure of the art, but Aikido and Bjj, Miyamoto Musashi and the Gracies, are about the same as chalk and cheese in that they're both carbon-based forms.

Aikido = modern martial art derived from ancient Japanese jujutsu, which was practiced by badass samurais.

BJJ = modern martial art derived from ancient Japanese jujutsu, wich was practiced by badass samurais.

Notice the similarity? Now here's the difference

Aikido = has a reputation for being practiced by blissed-out hippies who wouldn't know martial effectiveness if it kicked them in the bum.

BJJ = has a reputation for being practiced by macho meatheads who want to prove how tough they are and fight on TV in cages.

I think both of those stereotypes are deserved to a certain extent, but that both of them fail to paint a fair and complete picture of their respective martial arts. Still, to equate aikido with miyamoto musashi, and BJJ with meatheads is quite intellectually dishonest.

Gorgeous George 02-19-2012 01:17 PM

Re: What is your art?
 
Quote:

Robin Boyd wrote: (Post 303308)
Aikido = modern martial art derived from ancient Japanese jujutsu, which was practiced by badass samurais.

BJJ = modern martial art derived from ancient Japanese jujutsu, wich was practiced by badass samurais.

Notice the similarity? Now here's the difference

Aikido = has a reputation for being practiced by blissed-out hippies who wouldn't know martial effectiveness if it kicked them in the bum.

BJJ = has a reputation for being practiced by macho meatheads who want to prove how tough they are and fight on TV in cages.

I think both of those stereotypes are deserved to a certain extent, but that both of them fail to paint a fair and complete picture of their respective martial arts. Still, to equate aikido with miyamoto musashi, and BJJ with meatheads is quite intellectually dishonest.

On the whole, I find the people at my BJJ club to be much more friendly, open, and less egotistical than the people at my aikido club: I find so many people to be very tense, arrogant, and unable to 'let go'; when I find somebody who displays this level of 'tenseness', and inability to 'let go' at BJJ, and I spar them, I am completely relaxed, and have no problem dominating them; in aikido, these people are never challenged - they continue, for years, with a level of tension in their bodies that I learned to let go of in my first judo ne waza randori.

To address the thread-starter: with aikido, you control the body, by controlling a limb (generally speaking); in BJJ, you control the body, then you control a limb (or the neck).
BJJ is a much safer way of pacifying a person than aikido, in my opinion; not only because it relies on skills that are easier to acquire, but because you are more likely to harm a non-compliant person by attacking the smaller joints (a large part of aikido is wristlocks), than the larger, stronger ones.

The context in which aikido, and judo, throws and pins, make sense, is one in which you have bladed weapons - so if somebody is vulnerable for a few seconds (after a throw, or during a pin), then they are effectively dead.
BJJ developed in an environment where this was not the case - confrontations were not frequently lethal - hence their focus on submissions - a focus that meant they could easily beat those martial arts who didn't train to finish a confrontation in such a way (a judoka trains for ippon - a 'KO' throw - but if there are no weapons involved, and the throw does not knock you out, you can continue to fight a judoka).

Andrew S 02-19-2012 02:03 PM

Re: What is your art?
 
Just to clear things up...

Aikido - an art derived from Daito Ryu

Daito Ryu - the creation of Sokaku Takeda, from his experience in a number of weapon arts and the arts of the Takeda Clan (which prrobably included reiho, jujutsu, aikijujutsu, etc.)

BJJ - an art derived derived from 1930's judo

Judo - an art derived from Tenjin Shinyo Ryu jujutsu and Kito Ryu jujutstu.

How exactly are BJJ and aikido similar? You'd have to ask someone who is an expert in both for their opinion.

Kevin Leavitt 02-19-2012 04:41 PM

Re: What is your art?
 
For me, Aikido is like a PhD level practice, done correctly. I focus on the development of Aiki when studying Aikido and not on the rote mechanics of Jiu Jistu these days. So, that is what I mean be done correctly. BJJ done correctly is a very good form and methodology to develop some very good jiu jitsu skills and at the advance level, BJJ can also encompass aiki as well.

If I were to start a brand new student out, I'd tell him to spend about 5 years doing BJJ before ever stepping into an Aikido dojo. Either BJJ or Judo actually, both a great arts for developing very good and essential grappling and jiu jitsu skills that are frankly not taught very well in most aikido dojos.

So if you ask me how they are related...it depends on your focus and perspective. Aikido practices can very greatly from dojo to dojo and student to student. I find the body work and structure you learn in BJJ to provide a solid structural frame work for understanding basic kinesiology and proprioceptive martial movements. Again, taught as a "advance practice" Aiki training can help further your Judo or BJJ practices.

Same goes for Baseball, Golf or any other sport. They just may not be as direct an application as two martial practices.


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