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kvnmcwebn 02-13-2012 11:52 AM

Suwari waza
 
Hi,
I am new to the forum. I joined because I wanted to get advice on suri waza.
I am not an aikido stylist please forgive me, I only want to learn.
My background art is tai chi chuan and some other related chinese martial arts.
For the last couple years I have been training in bjj. Because rooting was
primary in my background arts I felt awkward getting my base during a kneeling roll. I tried using the common bjj begining postures but nothing felt quite right. I searched around the internet for and found suri waza. Actually it was just the thing I needed. I practiced the basic posture at home as best I could. Just stationary and moving to the left and right. I tried it out on the matt in both gi and no gi rolling. It worked well. I saw on suri waza that the back of the opponent was taken a lot so this waza must lend itself to that. I was able to take the back a few times. The danger i think is getting caught in guard and I have not tried it yet against an opponent that strongly favours the guard. But in my mind I can see that being a big problem. Anyway is anyone on here into this waza and if so are there any pointers you can give me on the practising the postures? It is the leg movements, contact with the ground and posture tips that I am after. I will still be using bjj chokes and locks. I did see a few videos with o sensei where he had his students press on his head from the kneeling posture. This shows that his root and posture is very strong and also shows the weight distribution in the position. I tried to infer the correct posture from that but as you know there are limits to what you can learn from videos.
Thanks in advance

kvnmcwebn 02-13-2012 12:09 PM

Re: suri waza
 
I should mention that the bjj combat stance is similar to the postures found in suri waza. But you start off on one knee so your mobility is already limited depending on what knee your on and the base is not as good as being on both knees. The beauty with the suri waza is that you start off with the potential to go in either direction quickly depending on your opponents attack and still have a rock solid base. So it's not a million miles off the bjj combat stance that some of us use it's only way more efficient in my pov.

mathewjgano 02-13-2012 12:24 PM

Re: suri waza
 
I'm not familiar with "suri waza," could you post a link showing what you mean? I'm familiar with suri ashi (a kind of foot work) and suri age (a kind of sword work), but I'm not sure how that relates yet.

Ah...I see now, suwari waza. My "understanding" is that suwari waza is good for getting us to "sit within our base;" to move from the hips and trunk...for whatever it's worth.

Kevin Morrison 02-13-2012 12:26 PM

Re: suri waza
 
Hi and welcome to the forum.

There are some poeple who practise both bjj and aikido, but until they come along here are some of the more obvious points.

Suwari waza is a label for a whole class of techniques, it just means both partners are sitting down (seiza or keiza). It's purpose and meaning are something people could debate, but it serves a different purpose to combat base in newaza / ground sparring / "rolling." Horses for courses and all that.

When in bjj class, do as your bjj instructor tells you!

Demetrio Cereijo 02-13-2012 12:33 PM

Re: suri waza
 
Jits and Judo player here.

I think OP means suwari waza, but I don't get what his troubles are, in fact I think he's asking for more trouble.

OP: If you keep rolling and taking backs from your knees, your partners will pull guard.

kvnmcwebn 02-13-2012 12:54 PM

Re: suri waza
 
thanks for that kevin. In our academy how we start off a roll isn't formal, it depends on body type, flexibility, preferece etc. I should have been more clear, I'm experimenting with starting rolls off using this sitting type of posture and movement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uVEZo-09jw

to set up bjj techniques. I was looking for tips and principles on this sitting posture from aikido practitioners who use it.

kvnmcwebn 02-13-2012 01:05 PM

Re: suri waza
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76wDVn9Hl0M

yes thanks I meant suwari waza. What are the principles of this posture anybody?

kvnmcwebn 02-13-2012 01:11 PM

Re: suri waza
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 302973)
Jits and Judo player here.

I think OP means suwari waza, but I don't get what his troubles are, in fact I think he's asking for more trouble.

OP: If you keep rolling and taking backs from your knees, your partners will pull guard.

Hi yes I meant suwari waza. Sorry for my ignorance. What are the principles of this posture?
Thanks.

Edited to say. By principles I mean weight distribution when one knee is up, what part of the foot is touching the floor, any little tips like that.

mathewjgano 02-13-2012 01:41 PM

Re: suri waza
 
Quote:

Kevin McMonagle wrote: (Post 302982)
Hi yes I meant suwari waza. Sorry for my ignorance. What are the principles of this posture?
Thanks.

Edited to say. By principles I mean weight distribution when one knee is up, what part of the foot is touching the floor, any little tips like that.

Well you did write that on the thread title...maybe if some of us <:o cough...cough> paid more attention...
The main thing I focus on is to imagine my feet more or less tied together. So when one foot comes up, the other follows it. This, I believe, is to get the hips moving together. I go for as equally distributed as possible, but not sure how correct that is. I tend to move on the balls of the feet.

graham christian 02-13-2012 02:05 PM

Re: Suwari waza
 
Hi Kevin.
I have done and do lots of this. When talking principles, well it is useful for practicing many different ones so there is not set hard and fast must be this or that.

The aim or you could call it game is for one person to grab (usually the wrists) of the other and stop them being able to do anything in response to their hold or pin. The other fella, being in seiza is thus unable to move as he would if standing. His job is to learn how to harmonize and respond in such a way as to manoeuver the other person no matter how he tries to stop you.

In Ki Aikido it can be used as a way of developing center and thus learning to move from center and develop power from center for you can't rely on legs. Physically it also teaches how, now that your legs are 'missing' how useless it is to just rely on your shoulders and brute strength and so you learn how to develop hip movement. Subtle hip manoeuvering to generate power.

Many things can be practiced from this position for it is a position where you can't run away for example and yet you have to learn how to be effective from it.

You can also learn to use the paths of energy redirection from it, circles etc.

This can lead on to a practice where another is allowed to attack you, be it to grab, to hit or even to kick from a standing position whilst you must remain on your knees and handle it. Different from suwari waza but I think you'll see the progression.

Put very, very, simplistically and physically you could call it wrestling from the knees or even judo from the knees if you like.

Regards.G.

kvnmcwebn 02-13-2012 02:08 PM

Re: suri waza
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 302986)
Well you did write that on the thread title...maybe if some of us <:o cough...cough> paid more attention...
The main thing I focus on is to imagine my feet more or less tied together. So when one foot comes up, the other follows it. This, I believe, is to get the hips moving together. I go for as equally distributed as possible, but not sure how correct that is. I tend to move on the balls of the feet.

Ah thanks Matthew. Now that you point it out it makes perfect sense the hips should be moving together, that would allow rotational power. But I don't understand what you said about one foot comes up and the other follows it. I mean if one knee is up that would mean that the front foot is down and the back foot is up or maybe facing backward if you are on the balls of your feet. So I'm missing your point about imagining the feet being tied together which is probably a key. Thanks again.

Demetrio Cereijo 02-13-2012 02:10 PM

Re: suri waza
 
Quote:

Kevin McMonagle wrote: (Post 302982)
Hi yes I meant suwari waza. Sorry for my ignorance. What are the principles of this posture?
Thanks.

Edited to say. By principles I mean weight distribution when one knee is up, what part of the foot is touching the floor, any little tips like that.

Is hard to explain in writing. Basically what Matthew wrote is correct. Plus keep your weight low and your head up (with "look at the ceiling but without actually looking" intent) like when you're inside someone's guard

I suggest you to get both Hiroshi Ikeda's "Za" and Roy Harris' "Takedowns from the knees" videos. Google around a bit, they are easy to find. Combine Ikeda's drills with Harris' techniques.

kvnmcwebn 02-13-2012 02:17 PM

Re: Suwari waza
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 302992)
In Ki Aikido it can be used as a way of developing center and thus learning to move from center and develop power from center for you can't rely on legs. Physically it also teaches how, now that your legs are 'missing' how useless it is to just rely on your shoulders and brute strength and so you learn how to develop hip movement. Subtle hip manoeuvering to generate power.

Put very, very, simplistically and physically you could call it wrestling from the knees or even judo from the knees if you like.

Regards.G.

Well Graham, that's exactly what I find myself thinking all the time during bjj rolling from kneeling "now that my legs are missing where is my center" and how can I generate power. I never relied on brute strenght. In my previous traing all of the power came from the hips, snapping them etc, I still use that when we start from standing position but when we start from kneeling I have not been able to generate much power and have felt generally double weighted. As you and Matthew pointed out we can still use the hips with this technique and therefore can generate power. Thanks a million for clarifying this. It is making a lot of sense.
-Kevin

mathewjgano 02-13-2012 03:09 PM

Re: suri waza
 
Quote:

Kevin McMonagle wrote: (Post 302993)
Ah thanks Matthew. Now that you point it out it makes perfect sense the hips should be moving together, that would allow rotational power. But I don't understand what you said about one foot comes up and the other follows it. I mean if one knee is up that would mean that the front foot is down and the back foot is up or maybe facing backward if you are on the balls of your feet. So I'm missing your point about imagining the feet being tied together which is probably a key. Thanks again.

Here's a pretty good example of what I'm trying to describe. I try for no lag between feet though: his back foot separates a little before rejoining.

I was just watching some other videos on youtube and they explain as an elastic band between feet where the feet do seperate, but only a little. I'm pretty out of practice so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Alic 02-13-2012 03:38 PM

Re: Suwari waza
 
Honestly, if you want to know, best way is to pay a visit to a dojo, pay a drop-in fee, and ask the sensei :p

Suwari-waza is difficult because you need to have proper shikkoho and hanmi (no kamae), in addition to balance and other aspects. You will need a good solid half year of training to get a grasp on it.

I would recommend sticking it out for a few classes. You may find Aikido to be your thing. It never hurts to give it a try.

Pauliina Lievonen 02-13-2012 03:45 PM

Re: Suwari waza
 
Quote:

Kevin McMonagle wrote: (Post 302998)
Well Graham, that's exactly what I find myself thinking all the time during bjj rolling from kneeling "now that my legs are missing where is my center" and how can I generate power.

Try focussing on your lower belly between your hips and turning from there. Sort of like leaving your legs and hips where they are and turning your torso between them. Sounds counterintuitive I know. And of course if you turn far enough the legs will follow... Gives a tighter turn and more power.

A simple explanation for something that could become more complex, but maybe this is a start?

Pauliina

Mario Tobias 02-14-2012 03:26 AM

Re: Suwari waza
 
Hi Kevin,

For the suwari waza posture, in order to be stable you need to stick your stomach out. This is so you wont easily be pushed or pulled. Its a much more stable position. Try it out with a friend experimenting how the belly affects stability and groundedness, sticking in or sticking out. We also have this "keiza" position (toes) which is a ready/fighting position rather than "seiza".

sakumeikan 02-14-2012 09:04 AM

Re: Suwari waza
 
Quote:

Kevin McMonagle wrote: (Post 302963)
Hi,
I am new to the forum. I joined because I wanted to get advice on suri waza.
I am not an aikido stylist please forgive me, I only want to learn.
My background art is tai chi chuan and some other related chinese martial arts.
For the last couple years I have been training in bjj. Because rooting was
primary in my background arts I felt awkward getting my base during a kneeling roll. I tried using the common bjj begining postures but nothing felt quite right. I searched around the internet for and found suri waza. Actually it was just the thing I needed. I practiced the basic posture at home as best I could. Just stationary and moving to the left and right. I tried it out on the matt in both gi and no gi rolling. It worked well. I saw on suri waza that the back of the opponent was taken a lot so this waza must lend itself to that. I was able to take the back a few times. The danger i think is getting caught in guard and I have not tried it yet against an opponent that strongly favours the guard. But in my mind I can see that being a big problem. Anyway is anyone on here into this waza and if so are there any pointers you can give me on the practising the postures? It is the leg movements, contact with the ground and posture tips that I am after. I will still be using bjj chokes and locks. I did see a few videos with o sensei where he had his students press on his head from the kneeling posture. This shows that his root and posture is very strong and also shows the weight distribution in the position. I tried to infer the correct posture from that but as you know there are limits to what you can learn from videos.
Thanks in advance

Dear Kevin,
How do you propose to apply Bjj chokes and locks in Suwariwaza?Do you want to apply these from
a position where both parties are seated/on knees ?Suwariwaza is a term denoting that the waza is performed while you[as Tori] is sitting initially in seiza and your opponent [Uke ] is likewise . There can be variation, namely Hamni Handachi where one guy [uke ] is standing up , you [tori ]are on knees.
Aikido pinning waza is usually completed when uke is pinned down, face down on the mat.Control /pressure is then applied to a limb/shoulder joint.Very limited usage of choking.Judo has a bigger repertoire. Cheers, Joe

kvnmcwebn 02-14-2012 12:28 PM

Re: Suwari waza
 
Matthew thanks for the link thats what i was looking for I just never would have know what to call it.

Joe I will try and explain how I used this to apply submissions during training. What do you want to know?

kvnmcwebn 02-14-2012 12:35 PM

Re: Suwari waza
 
Sorry Joe I think I understand what you mean. No I don't intent to apply chokes and locks with an uki as in suwari waza we don't do that in my school.
Instead I tried this posture in full contact grappling, 5 minute single rounds starting from "kneeling" against 3 opponents. From my rough attempt I had a higher percentage of submissions than I normally get. If you want I can explain how i got them. We usually start from kneeling because of time and space constraints. Also there are less injuries from kneeling. Starting from kneeling means you can start however you want as long as you are not standing. There are a number of postures used, it depends on the individuals flexible and game strategy etc.

kvnmcwebn 02-14-2012 12:46 PM

Re: Suwari waza
 
joe here is an example of what i'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1KSBYmmxFo

as you can see the guy in red shorts is spending a lot of time standing in a posture that is similar to your suwari waza. It is called combat base in bjj, but you can see that it is not fluid and he is double weighted. That is the posture I usually fight from but i knew there must be a better way of doing it. So now I found it with matthews link. thanks

kvnmcwebn 02-14-2012 01:10 PM

Re: Suwari waza
 
Alic if I ever get the chance I will drop in to a class and ask about shiko. But there are no aikido schools around me that I know of.

Demetrio Cereijo 02-14-2012 01:18 PM

Re: Suwari waza
 
Maybe here?

http://www.ki-shin-tai.co.uk/index.php

Disclaimer: from here I can't tell if their aikido could be useful for your purposes.

kvnmcwebn 02-14-2012 01:30 PM

Re: Suwari waza
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 303079)
Maybe here?

http://www.ki-shin-tai.co.uk/index.php

Disclaimer: from here I can't tell if their aikido could be useful for your purposes.

Thats funny I just found them online as well. I had no idea. I may drop in to that class. I don't want to be disrespectful though. Do you know what the translation of ki shin tai is?
thanks.

Demetrio Cereijo 02-14-2012 01:34 PM

Re: Suwari waza
 
Probably something in the line of spirit-mind-body.

About dropping in class unannounced... I'd give them a phone call a pair of days before asking for info.


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