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Mary Eastland 12-04-2011 06:41 AM

shiho nage
 
Shiho nage was a difficult technique for me. Ron always did it a little different from Maruyama, Sensei. I would be almost getting it then we would go to summer or winter camp and I would get confused again. I could do the motions of it and it probably didn't look to bad yet it didn't feel strong. My hands always felt so weak. I remember complaining about my wrists. men's wrists were so much bigger and stronger.

I used to say I hate shiho nage or I can't do it. Of course that became self fulfilling.
I decided to change my mind about it. I couldn't say I loved shihonage yet but I said that "I am embracing shiho nage". "I am exploring shiho nage."

Sure enough, it got better. Especially after we stopped going to camps because now I was doing one way with minor changes instead of a whole change of technique.

The "Summer of Shiho nage" changed everything. Stepping into my fears and frustrations was the key. I broke it down to three steps: L step, hands on a horizontal plain, then bend ukes elbow. I taught and practiced shiho nage every class this summer. My understanding of the mechanics and how to use Ki instead of hand strength grew with day of practice.

I can't believe I can tell you I love shiho nage now. I can't wait for class today so we can revisit it and see how it feels on this day with each new uke.

inframan 12-08-2011 07:46 AM

Re: shiho nage
 
I have had the same experience lately, I never liked it either. There is a lot going on and it requires a lot of movement. I decided to just embrace it and act like it was a favorite, now I understand it much better and it just feels like another technique to me.

NagaBaba 12-08-2011 08:15 AM

Re: shiho nage
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 298794)
Shiho nage was a difficult technique for me. Ron always did it a little different from Maruyama, Sensei. I would be almost getting it then we would go to summer or winter camp and I would get confused again. I could do the motions of it and it probably didn't look to bad yet it didn't feel strong. My hands always felt so weak. I remember complaining about my wrists. men's wrists were so much bigger and stronger.

I used to say I hate shiho nage or I can't do it. Of course that became self fulfilling.
I decided to change my mind about it. I couldn't say I loved shihonage yet but I said that "I am embracing shiho nage". "I am exploring shiho nage."

Sure enough, it got better. Especially after we stopped going to camps because now I was doing one way with minor changes instead of a whole change of technique.

The "Summer of Shiho nage" changed everything. Stepping into my fears and frustrations was the key. I broke it down to three steps: L step, hands on a horizontal plain, then bend ukes elbow. I taught and practiced shiho nage every class this summer. My understanding of the mechanics and how to use Ki instead of hand strength grew with day of practice.

I can't believe I can tell you I love shiho nage now. I can't wait for class today so we can revisit it and see how it feels on this day with each new uke.

I must say I disagree with you. Before going to such esoteric concepts like Ki, if it exists, students have to learn pure biomechanics of the technique. It means, how to create multiple leverages on different joints, then how to control and turn the hips of attacker with these leverages, next how to unbalance him and maintain this unbalance whole way down.

Beginners have to develop a strong grip that is coming from center, not from shoulders. Such development can be done i.e. with a lot of bokken/ jo practice. Of course always there will be somebody very strong that will be able to make you work hard, but that is a point -- there is no sense to practice always with complaisant attacker.

Without such basic mechanics, where students understand very clearly each stage of technique, and can reproduce it at their will, there is no point to go further.

So yes, it is necessary to work hard with all your physical power first few years, to develop efficient techniques on resisting attacker.

Introducing Ki-like concepts only lead to distortion and watering down aikido.

Cliff Judge 12-08-2011 08:17 AM

Re: shiho nage
 
I am still not 100% on what the four directions are. Three make sense, but when i try to figure out where the fourth one is I feel like I am just BSing my way through the technique. :crazy:

Mary Eastland 12-08-2011 09:49 AM

Re: shiho nage
 
I see that we really disagree, Szczepan Janczuk.
To me, Aikido without Ki development is just movement. I hope you continue to enjoy your practice.

Mary

amoeba 12-08-2011 09:51 AM

Re: shiho nage
 
Oh, I've actually always liked shiho nage omote, it's kind of my default technique in Jiyu waza (meaning if I don't think at all, I'll auomatically do it...:D )

Shiho nage ura now, that one's strange. Feels realy awkward and constructed to me...

Eva Antonia 12-08-2011 01:30 PM

Re: shiho nage
 
I cannot remotely imagine myself embracing tenshi nage and getting able to perform it correctly.

(and koshi nage, and kokyu ho, and...)

I fear it's not only the positive approach but also some basic understanding I lack for these techniques.

Maybe it comes one day, and then I'll embrace them,too.

Best regards,

Eva

Janet Rosen 12-08-2011 04:43 PM

Re: shiho nage
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 299265)
I am still not 100% on what the four directions are. Three make sense, but when i try to figure out where the fourth one is I feel like I am just BSing my way through the technique. :crazy:

I have heard/seen a few descriptions but the one that has stayed with me:
Easier to do if performed as a cooperative exercise w/ nage holding a bokken. Uke does a yokomen attack.
First cut is shomen cut to uke's wrist - uke allows himself to stay connected at that point and move with nage
Second cut is lateral across uke's belly (for purpose of exercise, bokken blade and uke's wrist stay in contact)
Third cut as one passes steps through is bokken turning blade up to cut at uke's arm or at another opponent
Turn and strike shomen again = throw

graham christian 12-08-2011 07:12 PM

Re: shiho nage
 
Good to see you're sticking at it and gaining. I love shihonage.

Here's a funny thing. It seems the way I describe it to beginners gets through well for I am always amazed at how easily they take to it and do it. The problems for them comes in the refinement of it.

Regards.G.

lbb 12-08-2011 07:19 PM

Re: shiho nage
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 299263)
I must say I disagree with you. Before going to such esoteric concepts like Ki, if it exists, students have to learn pure biomechanics of the technique. It means, how to create multiple leverages on different joints, then how to control and turn the hips of attacker with these leverages, next how to unbalance him and maintain this unbalance whole way down.

Indeed...but in a sense, there are no "pure biomechanics", or at least, no universal ones. If you've got small hands and uke has enormous blacksmith wrists, your biomechanics will be different than vice versa.

I'm remembering a class at summer camp where I got a small, wiry yudansha with small hands and wrists to show me his "nikkyo with big people" tricks :D

graham christian 12-08-2011 07:32 PM

Re: shiho nage
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 299263)
I must say I disagree with you. Before going to such esoteric concepts like Ki, if it exists, students have to learn pure biomechanics of the technique. It means, how to create multiple leverages on different joints, then how to control and turn the hips of attacker with these leverages, next how to unbalance him and maintain this unbalance whole way down.

Beginners have to develop a strong grip that is coming from center, not from shoulders. Such development can be done i.e. with a lot of bokken/ jo practice. Of course always there will be somebody very strong that will be able to make you work hard, but that is a point -- there is no sense to practice always with complaisant attacker.

Without such basic mechanics, where students understand very clearly each stage of technique, and can reproduce it at their will, there is no point to go further.

So yes, it is necessary to work hard with all your physical power first few years, to develop efficient techniques on resisting attacker.

Introducing Ki-like concepts only lead to distortion and watering down aikido.

Not quite true. I teach Ki principles first, along with technical. Anyway, the view of developing a 'strong' grip and relating it it bokken are interesting.

In essence the holding of the wrist is no different to the holding of a sword.

The simplicity of shihonage is that it is two sword cuts in essence also.

Regards.G.

Mario Tobias 12-08-2011 09:16 PM

Re: shiho nage
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 299265)
I am still not 100% on what the four directions are. Three make sense, but when i try to figure out where the fourth one is I feel like I am just BSing my way through the technique. :crazy:

the 4 directions are simulating the 4 direction suburi. I saw a youtube video of saito sensei doing this that is when I understood where the 4 directions are coming from

RuteMendes 01-23-2012 12:42 PM

Re: shiho nage
 
shiho nage... my favourite technique *-*
It's very beautiful to see and painful to do if the nage isn't careful!

Phil Van Treese 01-23-2012 01:05 PM

Re: shiho nage
 
I hear about Omote and Ura Shiho Nage all the time. But does anyone know, or has anyone heard of, "straightline" Shiho nage??? Probably not since it's not well known. "Straightline" Shiho nage has no omote or ura movement. My students love to do SL esp when they go to seminars. Messes a lot of people up and makes them wonder where it came from. One of my favorite techniques too.

Steven 01-23-2012 02:28 PM

Re: shiho nage
 
Huh? Please explain

sakumeikan 01-23-2012 04:18 PM

Re: shiho nage
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 299265)
I am still not 100% on what the four directions are. Three make sense, but when i try to figure out where the fourth one is I feel like I am just BSing my way through the technique. :crazy:

Hi Cliff,
Try this from migi gyaku hamni katatedori.1.Irimi -uke thrown in direction he faces.2.Tenkan -Uke gets thrown from whence he came.3. Use footwork to get to right angle to Uke [L shape ] enter /cut down uke .Uke gets thrown in an direction approx 90%[Think compass].utilise circular motion [ushiro tenkan ]lead uke in large circular motion , uke will then revolve around tori and be thrown in a different path from no 1/2/3.No 4 is the tricky one.Try visualizing north/south /east /west.Hope this helps.Joe.

Cliff Judge 01-24-2012 10:00 AM

Re: shiho nage
 
Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 301393)
Hi Cliff,
Try this from migi gyaku hamni katatedori.1.Irimi -uke thrown in direction he faces.2.Tenkan -Uke gets thrown from whence he came.3. Use footwork to get to right angle to Uke [L shape ] enter /cut down uke .Uke gets thrown in an direction approx 90%[Think compass].utilise circular motion [ushiro tenkan ]lead uke in large circular motion , uke will then revolve around tori and be thrown in a different path from no 1/2/3.No 4 is the tricky one.Try visualizing north/south /east /west.Hope this helps.Joe.

Thanks very much for this...so, N/S/E/W, based on which way tori is facing when she initiates her attack? I will give that a try and see if I can make it work.

mathewjgano 01-24-2012 12:17 PM

Re: shiho nage
 
Quote:

Phil Van Treese wrote: (Post 301371)
I hear about Omote and Ura Shiho Nage all the time. But does anyone know, or has anyone heard of, "straightline" Shiho nage??? Probably not since it's not well known. "Straightline" Shiho nage has no omote or ura movement. My students love to do SL esp when they go to seminars. Messes a lot of people up and makes them wonder where it came from. One of my favorite techniques too.

Is that a little like Shodokan tenkai kotegaeshi? This video is poor quality, but it's the best one I could find on it. It's the second waza performed.

mathewjgano 01-24-2012 12:36 PM

Re: shiho nage
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 298794)
Shiho nage was a difficult technique for me. Ron always did it a little different from Maruyama, Sensei. I would be almost getting it then we would go to summer or winter camp and I would get confused again. I could do the motions of it and it probably didn't look to bad yet it didn't feel strong. My hands always felt so weak. I remember complaining about my wrists. men's wrists were so much bigger and stronger.

I used to say I hate shiho nage or I can't do it. Of course that became self fulfilling.
I decided to change my mind about it. I couldn't say I loved shihonage yet but I said that "I am embracing shiho nage". "I am exploring shiho nage."

Sure enough, it got better. Especially after we stopped going to camps because now I was doing one way with minor changes instead of a whole change of technique.

The "Summer of Shiho nage" changed everything. Stepping into my fears and frustrations was the key. I broke it down to three steps: L step, hands on a horizontal plain, then bend ukes elbow. I taught and practiced shiho nage every class this summer. My understanding of the mechanics and how to use Ki instead of hand strength grew with day of practice.

I can't believe I can tell you I love shiho nage now. I can't wait for class today so we can revisit it and see how it feels on this day with each new uke.

It's amazing how that embracing attitude opens doors, isn't it? I have to constantly remind myself of that when I dislike something. I've always liked shihonage for some reason...not that I do it at all well. I really enjoy the huge stretch I get as uke. Shihonage

Phil Van Treese 01-24-2012 12:54 PM

Re: shiho nage
 
Straightline Shiho Nage is somewhat like Tenkai Kotegaeshi but instead of focusing on the wrist, uke's elbow is on Nage's shoulder and all that is required is to bend your knees, drop straight down while bending a little bit foreward. To talk someone thru it on the computer is hard, to demonstrate is easy.

sakumeikan 01-24-2012 12:58 PM

Re: shiho nage
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 301466)
Thanks very much for this...so, N/S/E/W, based on which way tori is facing when she initiates her attack? I will give that a try and see if I can make it work.

Hi Cliff,
I think you have the idea.First you have got to start together at a fixed point ie a directional position which you can relate to.A good idea is to determine North /South /East /West ie the direction of ukes ukemi. Do this map ref.from your point of view as Tori.So you would face due North/Uke faces .SouthSelect Migi Gyaku Hamni katatedori..Then proceed from that point.The first three are easy peasy , no. 4. is the awkward one.luck.Cheers, Joe.

mathewjgano 01-24-2012 01:01 PM

Re: shiho nage
 
Quote:

Phil Van Treese wrote: (Post 301488)
Straightline Shiho Nage is somewhat like Tenkai Kotegaeshi but instead of focusing on the wrist, uke's elbow is on Nage's shoulder and all that is required is to bend your knees, drop straight down while bending a little bit foreward. To talk someone thru it on the computer is hard, to demonstrate is easy.

Very interesting! Thank you! Do the hands get used at all to get aite into position or is this a hands-free way of doing it?

PeterR 01-24-2012 07:39 PM

Re: shiho nage
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 301482)
Is that a little like Shodokan tenkai kotegaeshi? This video is poor quality, but it's the best one I could find on it. It's the second waza performed.

Matthew
In Shodokan terminology Shihonage is tenkai kotegaeshi. I am a great fan of the first part of this technique since half way through is a transition point to mai-otoshi. For that to work best you need to be in control of uke's elbow using your arm in addition to control of the wrist. Usually the point of contact is just above tori's own elbow but perhaps (Phil will need to confirm) that all that shifts for his straight-line shihonage is the point of contact to the shoulder.

I find shihonage a very difficult technique to actually apply. When I have seen it successfully applied against a resisting opponent (and by that I mean a randori setting not someone standing there shutting the technique down) tori had to get low without that extra elbow control - it was also done very fast. My excuse is that I am pretty tall but that is my advantage during the transition to mai-otoshi which I have done to great effect. From the same transition point uke is nicely kuzushied to move into either ushiro-ate or pointing to another thread - a choke. Needless to say mae-otoshi and ushiro-ate are my favorite techniques.

mathewjgano 01-24-2012 11:06 PM

Re: shiho nage
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 301516)
Matthew
In Shodokan terminology Shihonage is tenkai kotegaeshi. I am a great fan of the first part of this technique since half way through is a transition point to mai-otoshi. For that to work best you need to be in control of uke's elbow using your arm in addition to control of the wrist. Usually the point of contact is just above tori's own elbow but perhaps (Phil will need to confirm) that all that shifts for his straight-line shihonage is the point of contact to the shoulder.

I find shihonage a very difficult technique to actually apply. When I have seen it successfully applied against a resisting opponent (and by that I mean a randori setting not someone standing there shutting the technique down) tori had to get low without that extra elbow control - it was also done very fast. My excuse is that I am pretty tall but that is my advantage during the transition to mai-otoshi which I have done to great effect. From the same transition point uke is nicely kuzushied to move into either ushiro-ate or pointing to another thread - a choke. Needless to say mae-otoshi and ushiro-ate are my favorite techniques.

Hi Peter,
It was the straight-line description that reminded me of the Shodokan "shihonage," which I remember as moving aite more or less straight back and down (tori moving slightly to the outside of the wrist being "returned?"). Do you know of a good video that shows it? I googled/youtubed "Tomiki Ryu tenkai kotegaeshi" and "Shodokan tenkai kotegaeshi" but that blurry thing was the only one that popped up that had a similar look to what I remember; evereything else was tenkai kote hineri. It doesn't seem to be a very popular technique based on what kept popping up on my google searches, although I thought I saw a couple a few years back when I made similar searches.
At any rate, I remember really liking mae-otoshi and ushiro-ate a lot, I wonder why they stand out so much! :D

PeterR 01-25-2012 12:28 AM

Re: shiho nage
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 301526)
Hi Peter,
It was the straight-line description that reminded me of the Shodokan "shihonage," which I remember as moving aite more or less straight back and down (tori moving slightly to the outside of the wrist being "returned?"). Do you know of a good video that shows it? I googled/youtubed "Tomiki Ryu tenkai kotegaeshi" and "Shodokan tenkai kotegaeshi" but that blurry thing was the only one that popped up that had a similar look to what I remember; evereything else was tenkai kote hineri. It doesn't seem to be a very popular technique based on what kept popping up on my google searches, although I thought I saw a couple a few years back when I made similar searches.
At any rate, I remember really liking mae-otoshi and ushiro-ate a lot, I wonder why they stand out so much! :D

Well I am in China - where they ban facebook and youtube - neither is a great loss but occaisionally inconvenient.

I still get http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10c.html which at least demonstrates the classic form.

Cheers


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