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-   -   Aikido taiotoshi? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20586)

bob_stra 11-29-2011 08:41 AM

Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Taiotoshi is of course synonymous with judo. However, this clip clearly has an aikido flavor to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skYCL20ZyM0

Could someone comment as to whether this is a standard Aikido technique, Aikikai specific (I couldn't find out much about Mr Posluns other then his dojo claims to be Aikikai) etc? Does this tech go by other names, too?

Mark Freeman 11-29-2011 09:18 AM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 298324)
Taiotoshi is of course synonymous with judo. However, this clip clearly has an aikido flavor to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skYCL20ZyM0

Could someone comment as to whether this is a standard Aikido technique, Aikikai specific (I couldn't find out much about Mr Posluns other then his dojo claims to be Aikikai) etc? Does this tech go by other names, too?

Sorry Bob, I just can't see Taiotoshi in that clip. The judo version is a rotation around the ankle. The aikido projection had no focus around that point.

I would roughly call that technique a variation of 2nd form kokyunage, but others may call it something else, as I realise our nomenclature over here is a bit different.

regards

Mark

grondahl 11-29-2011 09:23 AM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
In Iwama style a highly similar waza is part of the kokyunage-family of throws. It can be done from shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, katatedori etc.

bob_stra 11-29-2011 09:26 AM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote: (Post 298325)
Sorry Bob, I just can't see Taiotoshi in that clip. The judo version is a rotation around the ankle. The aikido projection had no focus around that point.

I would roughly call that technique a variation of 2nd form kokyunage, but others may call it something else, as I realise our nomenclature over here is a bit different.

regards

Mark

You might be surprised, Mark. This same throw (pretty much exactly) is shown in Core Techniques of the Kodokan Judo Syllabus by Steven Cunningham.

In any case, I think you misunderstood: the video I cited is labeled as Taiotoshi by Mr Posluns (not me). I've never seen taiotoshi listed in any aikido compendium, so was wondering if (a) this was an orthodox naming (b) an orthodox technique (c) Something unique to this video

bob_stra 11-29-2011 09:30 AM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Internet glitch, so can't edit. Anyway, wanted to add - could someone point me to a video or three of any similar Aikido techniques?

Mark Freeman 11-29-2011 09:31 AM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 298328)
You might be surprised, Mark. This same throw (pretty much exactly) is shown in Core Techniques of the Kodokan Judo Syllabus by Steven Cunningham.

In any case, I think you misunderstood: the video I cited is labeled as Taiotoshi by Mr Posluns (not me). I've never seen taiotoshi listed in any aikido compendium, so was wondering if (a) this was an orthodox naming (b) an orthodox technique (c) Something unique to this video

Hi Bob,

not an orthodox naming in aikido as far as I am aware, however the technique seems pretty orthodox to me. I don't see anything unique there apart from the naming.

regards,

Mark

bob_stra 11-29-2011 09:43 AM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Ok, cool. Could you (or someone) post a clip to " technique a variation of 2nd form kokyunage" or "In Iwama style a highly similar waza is part of the kokyunage-family of throws".

I'm especially interested to see anything that uses that hand position (one hand on uke's bicep / front deltoid area)

jss 11-29-2011 09:44 AM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 298328)
I've never seen taiotoshi listed in any aikido compendium, so was wondering if (a) this was an orthodox naming (b) an orthodox technique (c) Something unique to this video

(a) Nope. I would call it a kokyu nage. Of course, 'kokyu nage' is the name for all techniques that don't have a name. :-)
(b) More or less. Not standard, but not unorthodox either. (I have an aikikai background, btw.)

Demetrio Cereijo 11-29-2011 09:44 AM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Iwama style

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=HMFWiF2HOOE

Hand goes around elbow level. Not as high as in the OP clip.

Ed. By Saito M.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f1LOIqmNI4

7 min mark

bob_stra 11-29-2011 10:02 AM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Thanks Demetrio. I'd love to see more too, if people have them.

jss 11-29-2011 10:20 AM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 298336)
Thanks Demetrio. I'd love to see more too, if people have them.

More elbow than biceps, but this one exists as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dor41J26Q14

bob_stra 11-29-2011 10:24 AM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Any where uke is projected to his sides, rather then directly back? Ie: the two directions marked in yellow


ChrisMoses 11-29-2011 10:36 AM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 298324)
Taiotoshi is of course synonymous with judo. However, this clip clearly has an aikido flavor to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skYCL20ZyM0

Could someone comment as to whether this is a standard Aikido technique, Aikikai specific (I couldn't find out much about Mr Posluns other then his dojo claims to be Aikikai) etc? Does this tech go by other names, too?

I'd say that's kokyunage. Doesn't look at all like tai otoshi to me at all. Not the angles, not the weight distribution on nage's legs, not the direction uke is projected, different kuzushi, different tsukuri, different kake.

Different. Really different.

Chuck Clark 11-29-2011 11:01 AM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Tai otoshi means literally "body drop"... (the body drop that's described by the name is the tori's dropping body, by the way, not the aite only) a true taiotoshi doesn't need to block the leg/ankle of the aite. It can be done that way but shouldn't really be necessary and when necessary it should be a last minute placement as the aite's leg is thrusting into a recovery cycle. Any sumi otoshi can be done as a dropping body or it can be in the floating phase. Sumi is to a corner and these waza are pretty much the same. Some have called these types of waza as Kokyunage... I think all waza done really well could be called "kokyunage", by the way.

Mifune, Kyuzo sensei was known to throw taiotoshi without any blocking of the uke's foot/ankle/leg. The naming of waza and in judo, for example, it's inclusion in a particular type of waza category is very telling... for example, taiotoshi is not thought of as ashiwaza. Another example, many lower level judoka throw uchimata with actions that are really koshiwaza, or hip throws. Uchimata is an ashiwaza.

Demetrio Cereijo 11-29-2011 11:47 AM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
I've been watching some clips of Poslums Sensei and I'd say he is a bit idiosyncratic at giving names to waza.

bob_stra 11-29-2011 12:00 PM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Quote:

Chuck Clark wrote: (Post 298343)
Tai otoshi means literally "body drop"... (the body drop that's described by the name is the tori's dropping body, by the way, not the aite only) a true taiotoshi doesn't need to block the leg/ankle of the aite. It can be done that way but shouldn't really be necessary and when necessary it should be a last minute placement as the aite's leg is thrusting into a recovery cycle. Any sumi otoshi can be done as a dropping body or it can be in the floating phase. Sumi is to a corner and these waza are pretty much the same. Some have called these types of waza as Kokyunage... I think all waza done really well could be called "kokyunage", by the way.

Mifune, Kyuzo sensei was known to throw taiotoshi without any blocking of the uke's foot/ankle/leg. The naming of waza and in judo, for example, it's inclusion in a particular type of waza category is very telling... for example, taiotoshi is not thought of as ashiwaza. Another example, many lower level judoka throw uchimata with actions that are really koshiwaza, or hip throws. Uchimata is an ashiwaza.

Well, I know that and you know that, but most judoka act as if they don't or have forgotten :)

Given the video of Poslum sensei, I thought perhaps there was some modern footage of this kind of throw, assuming its a common aikido (but uncommon judo) variant. That may be a bad assumption, though

Janet Rosen 11-29-2011 01:16 PM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 298324)
Taiotoshi is of course synonymous with judo. However, this clip clearly has an aikido flavor to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skYCL20ZyM0

Could someone comment as to whether this is a standard Aikido technique, Aikikai specific (I couldn't find out much about Mr Posluns other then his dojo claims to be Aikikai) etc? Does this tech go by other names, too?

Joel Posluns was the dojocho of San Francisco Aikikai until about ?7 or 8 years ago? - he would have integrated this into his teaching via the late Kanai Sensei who showed this at seminars at SFA many times.
I never saw it any aikido lineage other than Kanai Sensei.

CitoMaramba 11-29-2011 01:37 PM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
In this video Nishio Sensei demonstrates tai-otoshi against a shomen uchi attack. Nishio Sensei had a very extensive judo background.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I82BQFQ5uZ0

Now in this example, Koji Yoshida Sensei, one of Nishio Sensei's senior students, demonstrates tai-otoshi against ryosode-dori attack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03roY2ab7MI

ChrisMoses 11-29-2011 01:54 PM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Quote:

Inocencio Maramba wrote: (Post 298369)
In this video Nishio Sensei demonstrates tai-otoshi against a shomen uchi attack. Nishio Sensei had a very extensive judo background.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I82BQFQ5uZ0

Now in this example, Koji Yoshida Sensei, one of Nishio Sensei's senior students, demonstrates tai-otoshi against ryosode-dori attack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03roY2ab7MI

I'm down with both of those being tai-otoshi. Notice how (like Chuck points out) nage's body drops their weight and this is what effects the throw *over their leg not over the hips/back*. In the video of Nishio sensei, you can clearly see that the majority of his weight in on his left leg, not the one blocking the path of his nage and his weight drops as he bends first the left knee and then (potentially) the right knee. In the OP's video, nage has their weigh on the right leg and projects uke away (the movement is horizontal).

I like what I've seen of Nishio sensei. Always bummed I never got to feel his waza. :(

Janet Rosen 11-29-2011 04:57 PM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Quote:

Christian Moses wrote: (Post 298371)
I'm In the OP's video, nage has their weigh on the right leg and projects uke away (the movement is horizontal).

It is one of a couple of Kanai Sensei's "signature" moves that brought uke around that way and I always felt they carried a very high risk of unhealthily torquing nage's knee inward.

Abasan 11-29-2011 05:45 PM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Sumootoshi. Uke just took a maai ukemi that"s all.

phitruong 11-29-2011 06:05 PM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
i kinda like this gentleman approach http://www.youtube.com/user/kazeutab...72/pkatrOtokkE you can go from judo close-up to open further out to aikido sort of distance.

btw, that youtube channel has lots of interesting stuffs

Janet Rosen 11-29-2011 10:43 PM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
Quote:

Ahmad Abas wrote: (Post 298382)
Sumootoshi. Uke just took a maai ukemi that"s all.

I'm sorry, you are wrong. Joel Posluns is doing what he learned from Kanai Sensei of the USAF-ER as tai otoshi.
Here are videos of other Kanai senior students doing variations of the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55-8aOyPaHs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvzUL7rkmq8
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1105162587713

Chuck Clark 11-29-2011 11:09 PM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
This waza being discussed is one of my tokuiwaza in both judo and aikibudo. I actually polished my taiotoshi after some time being helped by George Harris sensei, one of the old hands from the U.S. Air Force SAC judo program and a great world class judoka. He had very long legs and could make this seem to come from nowhere... RIP George Harris.

This is heresy in some circles, but then I've never worried much about that .... real judo and real aiki are the same thing. I'm not talking about IJF sport jacket wrestling. When I was in Tanabe in 1965 I was talking with some old fellows about budo... only one of them remembered Ueshiba (even though there's a statue of him near the train station and the old family home was still standing) and he said, "oh, yes, Ueshiba of 'no touch judo', a great master." I wish I could've got that on tape.

Kevin Leavitt 11-30-2011 01:42 AM

Re: Aikido taiotoshi?
 
USAF SAC Judo program....ALOT of history there!


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