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NagaBaba 11-24-2011 01:49 PM

Controlling balance of attacker
 
In this topic I'd like to discuss the methods, how to take a balance of attacker in the moment of the contact. Also, he may occasionally recover his balance during the technique -- what we can use to unbalance him again?

IP/IS extremists are not welcome here.

Abasan 11-24-2011 02:07 PM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
'IP/IS extremists are not welcome here.' lol... Isn't everyone here one or the other in this past year? What a resurgence I would like to add.

Back to topic, I'd like to use two main methods.

One. To shift center vertically and thereby controlling maai from a vertical space instead of the horizontal plane.

Two. To take over his space using an overt or extended kamae (not atemi in a strictest sense) as he comes intruding into your space.

Both ways can be applied for irimi or tenkan. But are shaped differently. And when I do lose control and they recover from kuzushi, which usually happens when you either stop or try to change movement yourself, then it's back to awase again before using 1 typically.

kewms 11-24-2011 02:21 PM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
How about taking balance before contact is made? Which is accomplished by moving the target after he has committed himself.

Katherine

NagaBaba 11-24-2011 03:06 PM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: (Post 298058)
How about taking balance before contact is made? Which is accomplished by moving the target after he has committed himself.

Katherine

This would be the best solution, however for most of us, mortals, unreachable with serious, difficult attack (it means also correct distans, not zombi attacking from 10 feet away).
Timespace is so very small, that human brain can't handle it normally.

SteveTrinkle 11-24-2011 03:20 PM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 298052)
.....

IP/IS extremists are not welcome here.

That seems a bit extreme... How about IP/IS moderates?

Lyle Laizure 11-24-2011 08:14 PM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
Nothing takes balance like atemi.

NagaBaba 11-24-2011 08:37 PM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
Quote:

Ahmad Abas wrote: (Post 298056)
'IP/IS extremists are not welcome here.' lol... Isn't everyone here one or the other in this past year? What a resurgence I would like to add.

Back to topic, I'd like to use two main methods.

One. To shift center vertically and thereby controlling maai from a vertical space instead of the horizontal plane.

Two. To take over his space using an overt or extended kamae (not atemi in a strictest sense) as he comes intruding into your space.

Both ways can be applied for irimi or tenkan. But are shaped differently. And when I do lose control and they recover from kuzushi, which usually happens when you either stop or try to change movement yourself, then it's back to awase again before using 1 typically.

Nice.
1.Are you talking here about shifting his center or your center? Could you also explain more why you use only vertical in this case? Don't you see here a danger to ground him instead of unbalancing?

2.I don't really understand it, care to explain more?

NagaBaba 11-24-2011 08:44 PM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
Quote:

Lyle Laizure wrote: (Post 298088)
Nothing takes balance like atemi.

I'm usually careful with this tool to unbalance attacker. What will you use to deliver atemi?

If you are talking here about hands, the thing is, he may know boxing better than me and will use it as an opportunity to counter.

If you are talking here about atemi with any part of nage body - it becomes very interesting, I'd like to know more how you practice it.

This approach also require regular specialized atemi training on moving targets..

NagaBaba 11-24-2011 08:45 PM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
Quote:

Stephen Trinkle wrote: (Post 298070)
That seems a bit extreme... How about IP/IS moderates?

Stephen, you know what I mean...

graham christian 11-24-2011 09:02 PM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
Firstly from that view consider how you would unbalance anything, be it a person, a cup, a table, whatever. I'm being serious, consider it.

Then add in the factor of it takes you realigning your position to do so and movement. If the person regains balance and you get stuck then these two basics are the starting point of study. You need to move and realign basically.

With that seen as simple as it is clearly then you can see the need to learn where to move and why.

Then you discover the whys of circular motion etc. Step by step learning. No magic.

Every point of person regained balance and stability equals point you get stuck or clash no? Well at those points motion has stopped, alignment is out.

So how to take anothers balance is all about those two factors really in essence. The rest are add ons which lead to making it even more refined.

My two cents.
G..

danielajames 11-24-2011 10:04 PM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
If the centre of mass moves outside the base of support someone is unbalanced - so simple yet so hard to do. Aiki is a wonderful study of the minimum energy required to do this I think

Mario Tobias 11-24-2011 10:08 PM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
For me IMHO, it is always finding the "circuit" from nage's hara to uke's hara once the engagement has started. I liken connection to flow of electricity except that in this case it is flow of controlling balance. The challenge is how to complete the hara to hara connection.

In every technique imho, you start the "circuit" from nage's hara -> nage's shoulder -> nage's elbow -> nage's wrist -> nage's fingers -> uke's fingers -> uke's elbow -> uke's shoulder -> uke's hara. It's like dominoe effect. One part that doesn't connect in the technique, you will use force to make the technique work.

If you have an "open circuit" (eg nage initially using shoulder/arm power instead of power from center to generate the initial movement) or (eg using nage's shoulder power to directly attack uke's shoulder instead of going through elbow/wrist/fingers first), then the techniques will also be forceful. Similar to the electricity analogy, the connection will be lost and there will be no "flow".

Finding the circuits in the different techniques and coordination work after discovery is the challenge and the fun of practice. BTW, this is just my way of understanding connections to help me visualize all interactions in very simple fashion as we are being taught very abstract things all the time. This would work for all attacks imho.

If uke regains balance during a technique, find another "circuit" again to connect with uke's hara to unbalance him. Isn't the goal of practice controlling your center and uke's center in the first place? The discovery is the fun part.

danielajames 11-24-2011 10:40 PM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
Quote:

Mario Tobias wrote: (Post 298105)
For me IMHO, it is always finding the "circuit" from nage's hara to uke's hara once the engagement has started. I liken connection to flow of electricity except that in this case it is flow of controlling balance. The challenge is how to complete the hara to hara connection.

I like the circuit idea very much for the transfer of power, its described in the biomechanics world as the 'kinetic chain' and has nice analogies/ relevance for grounding, ground power etc.. It also can be used to highlight how it can be maximised in nage and minimised in uke

bob_stra 11-25-2011 12:14 AM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 298052)
In this topic I'd like to discuss the methods, how to take a balance of attacker in the moment of the contact. Also, he may occasionally recover his balance during the technique -- what we can use to unbalance him again?

I always thought this was pretty explicative (irrespective of any judgement about the individual performers)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLB9T...layer_embedded

bob_stra 11-25-2011 12:38 AM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 298111)
I always thought this was pretty explicative (irrespective of any judgement about the individual performers)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLB9T...layer_embedded

Here's an old picture explanation I once drew relating to the above. It may add further detail


sorokod 11-25-2011 01:27 AM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
I find these drawings useful as they make ideas more explicit. With sen sen no sen, I think that the relevant drawing is the first one (top left corner) but the timing of nage's entry is ahead of uke's expectation.

bob_stra 11-25-2011 01:32 AM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 298114)
I find these drawings useful as they make ideas more explicit. With sen sen no sen, I think that the relevant drawing is the first one (top left corner) but the timing of nage's entry is ahead of uke's expectation.

Great. But stuff about timing is kind of peripheral to the actual mechanics of it. Ie: discussions on sen-no-sen, go-no-sen etc can be misleading because they focus on the "when" rather then "how". The how is going to be the more important part, IMO.

sorokod 11-25-2011 01:48 AM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
For example, in Iwama style which I practice, all the kihon shomenuchi techniques are performed with the nage/tori initiating the strike. This offcourse shapes the waza to a large extent. I disagree that timing is peripheral to mechanics.

bob_stra 11-25-2011 02:19 AM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 298116)
I disagree that timing is peripheral to mechanics.

Then we disagree :) The "thing you do" (from an unbalancing him perspective) is the same if you get there first, he does, or you both do. It's not reliant on techniques; those are just nice little exclamation marks at the end.

Look at something like judo's happo-no-kuzushi (or Tomiki's judo taiso, if you prefer). You unbalance him, then do what's relevant. But you still must unbalance him *first* - it's the larger part of it. Then, depending on his reaction, you add your favourite flourish. Or you just push him over.

Actually, that reduces the entire art down to a handful of techniques (3-5), doesn't it? Kinda like "everything is ikkyo" or "it's all just koshi-waza" or "atemi is 90% of aikido". The fun stuff has already happened...so why futz around with 101 techniques?

sakumeikan 11-25-2011 03:46 AM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 298052)
In this topic I'd like to discuss the methods, how to take a balance of attacker in the moment of the contact. Also, he may occasionally recover his balance during the technique -- what we can use to unbalance him again?

IP/IS extremists are not welcome here.

Dear Szczepan,
It would suggest to me that if Uke regains his/her balance Tori has not unbalanced Uke fully in the first place.If Uke is totally unbalanced how does he /she recover?Cheers, Joe.

sakumeikan 11-25-2011 03:59 AM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 298090)
I'm usually careful with this tool to unbalance attacker. What will you use to deliver atemi?

If you are talking here about hands, the thing is, he may know boxing better than me and will use it as an opportunity to counter.

If you are talking here about atemi with any part of nage body - it becomes very interesting, I'd like to know more how you practice it.

This approach also require regular specialized atemi training on moving targets..

Dear Szczepan,
Atemi applications can be used in various ways. You can kick your uke in the leg /groin area while/ if Uke is engaging in contact.If you apply waza[irimi nage, ikkyo , nikkyo ]atemi can be applied.Shiho nage .Kaiten nage are equally vehicles for potential atemi.Personally I only use atemi [gently ] as a wake up call when my Uke is lax.I think all new students should be made aware of atemi from the outset.Too many people think aikido is flowery and defensive.This is imo a
misunderstanding.From my perspective Tori must take the initiative,not being passive.Like the saying goes 'A good offence is a good defence.'Cheers Joe.

Tim Ruijs 11-25-2011 04:13 AM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 298067)
This would be the best solution, however for most of us, mortals, unreachable with serious, difficult attack (it means also correct distans, not zombi attacking from 10 feet away).
Timespace is so very small, that human brain can't handle it normally.

Uhmmm.... that is why you practise so you do not need to think. Your visual system has been (or should be) trained to properly 'read' the distance. Kimusubi, ma ai, kino nagare all principles need to come together in that exact moment. I always interpret Aikido as to be able to do the right thing at the right time.

When your partner regains balance during a technique something went wrong in your execution (duh). Most of the time you are not 'leading' your partner sufficiently and thus your partner stops.

When you practise chudan tsuki, alternately practise with and without tanto. Distance changes only few centimeters, but you must be able to 'see' this and move accordingly. Practise such that each time there is only but an inch space between fist/tanto and you, with different partners.

Another exercise: have partner attack with bokken (shomen) and slightly move of the center/attack line and enter and put your hand on his/hers.
many, many, many more exist....

Tim Ruijs 11-25-2011 04:58 AM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 298129)
Too many people think aikido is flowery and defensive.This is imo a
misunderstanding.From my perspective Tori must take the initiative,not being passive.Like the saying goes 'A good offence is a good defence.'Cheers Joe.

Agreed. People mistake taking the initiative for offensive action. This is not true. While in Aikido you take the initiative to control the situation, you do not intend to hurt the 'other'. Whereas offensive action has the intend to be the first to hurt the other. This aspect does not always receive proper attention in practise.

danielajames 11-25-2011 07:02 AM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 298115)
Great. But stuff about timing is kind of peripheral to the actual mechanics of it. Ie: discussions on sen-no-sen, go-no-sen etc can be misleading because they focus on the "when" rather then "how". The how is going to be the more important part, IMO.

Early or late timing though is going to favour unbalancing uke in a particular way I imagine. Though with static practice the mechanics of the gamut of unbalancing choices can be more easily explored

Walter Martindale 11-25-2011 07:21 AM

Re: Controlling balance of attacker
 
Enter, atemi to the occipital area. Just inside of that is area 17 of brain. Processes vision. While busy getting sight back to normal, balance is behind the action.
One suggestion


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