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NagaBaba 11-24-2011 01:39 PM

Commitment into the attack
 
99.99% attackers in aikido don't know how to deliver a difficult attack. They do so called ‘zombie attack'. It is not worth for me nor to discuss it, nor practice it.

However sometimes we can meet somebody who really knows how to attack. He usually has a background in street fighting or competition oriented sparring and matches.

In such very rare and precious cases it is virtually impossible or most difficult to do any technique, due to lack of clear commitment. Of course such commitment exists, otherwise the effect of attack would be null, but it is very well hidden until last moment, and last for very, very short time. Immediately after successful attack he disengages looking for next opportunity to attack.

How you deal with such situation? I mean how to discover the moment he decides to attack? And how to extend this short time when he is well engaged? Any particular training methods?

Please refrain from this nonsense IP/IS discussion..

Russ Q 11-24-2011 02:00 PM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
This an interesting question Mr. S. I have no answer but am curious as to what you're finding works for you.....

Cheers,

Russ

Abasan 11-24-2011 02:26 PM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Why do you play into his game? When you confront his attack your mind is now locked up.

I guess for the majority of us, we should utilise sen sen no sen here. At least until we can cultivate the aikido mind and spirit.

NagaBaba 11-24-2011 02:59 PM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Ahmad Abas wrote: (Post 298059)
Why do you play into his game? When you confront his attack your mind is now locked up.

I guess for the majority of us, we should utilise sen sen no sen here. At least until we can cultivate the aikido mind and spirit.

but O sensei said there is no sen sen no sen in aikido....

sorokod 11-24-2011 04:18 PM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 298066)
but O sensei said there is no sen sen no sen in aikido....

He might have been rejecting the dualistic aspect of the confrontation; me beating the opponent with early timing vs not allowing the attack to happen in the first place and in that sense not participating in the game.

But then O sensei said many things and in Japanese too :-)

Mark Mueller 11-24-2011 05:48 PM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
You look for the advantageous line. You re-define the line of attack.

graham christian 11-24-2011 06:19 PM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 298066)
but O sensei said there is no sen sen no sen in aikido....

Ultimately maybe, but many descriptions he gave come from such. In fact that is a very high level of operation in it'self.

You sound defeated before you begin alreadt saying how dangerouse such an opponent is.

Just get reality on the above first. Getting good at it gives you much more time, a second becomes a long time. You are with completely so no prediction necessary. Then there is the factor involved of actually welcoming the attack. Presenting an irresistable opening for the attacker.

Watch a video of Hikitsuchi who emphasized these things in Aikido.

Ultimately your talking kokyu but just leave that as my view for now.

Anyway, how was your trip to Hawaii? Do any Aikido there?

Regards.G.

Ketsan 11-24-2011 06:44 PM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 298051)
99.99% attackers in aikido don't know how to deliver a difficult attack. They do so called ‘zombie attack'. It is not worth for me nor to discuss it, nor practice it.

However sometimes we can meet somebody who really knows how to attack. He usually has a background in street fighting or competition oriented sparring and matches.

In such very rare and precious cases it is virtually impossible or most difficult to do any technique, due to lack of clear commitment. Of course such commitment exists, otherwise the effect of attack would be null, but it is very well hidden until last moment, and last for very, very short time. Immediately after successful attack he disengages looking for next opportunity to attack.

How you deal with such situation? I mean how to discover the moment he decides to attack? And how to extend this short time when he is well engaged? Any particular training methods?

Please refrain from this nonsense IP/IS discussion..

Is there a practical difference between a good attack and a bad attack if neither hits? If uke makes a good shomen uchi do we find we can't enter in? If it is a bad shomen uchi does this also stop us entering in? No. If quality of technique is affected by the quality uke's attack then uke is in control; they can choose to defend themselves by making a bad attack knowing that it will foul up tori's technique.

When I spar in karate or kick boxing, as I do now and then, I just watch and wait and whatever he does I enter in. They make a kick, I push them over, they make a punch and I charge in. They're too busy making the strike to do much about my irimi. They're fixated on hitting me; their mind has stopped and so has their body.

The key to this, as I see it, is to train the mind. One has to be able to calmly stand and watch the strike coming in until it hits. When this can be done with detachment and indifference I find that there is an aweful lot of time to do something about the strike and so your timing improves. This is my experience anyway. If one tries not to get hit then one ends up doing things to avoid getting hit and so one is not concentrating on defeating the opponent which is the most certain way of not getting hit.
One must not become fixated on the attack; Takuan talks about this extensively in The Unfettered Mind and it's a staple of stories from sword schools that students are beaten until they stop defending themselves and only then are they allowed to even touch a sword. Throw all thought of the attack away otherwise the mind gets stuck on it, throw away all concern for yourself and all the fear that goes with it; body follows mind and you end up reacting to the attack rather than being proactive so your mind must not be fixated on the attack.

The quality and form of the attack is then even more meaningless; it simply becomes the opening needed to allow irimi. Smarter fighters then try to move back and a good shove at this moment is most effective.

graham christian 11-24-2011 07:07 PM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 298051)
99.99% attackers in aikido don't know how to deliver a difficult attack. They do so called ‘zombie attack'. It is not worth for me nor to discuss it, nor practice it.

However sometimes we can meet somebody who really knows how to attack. He usually has a background in street fighting or competition oriented sparring and matches.

In such very rare and precious cases it is virtually impossible or most difficult to do any technique, due to lack of clear commitment. Of course such commitment exists, otherwise the effect of attack would be null, but it is very well hidden until last moment, and last for very, very short time. Immediately after successful attack he disengages looking for next opportunity to attack.

How you deal with such situation? I mean how to discover the moment he decides to attack? And how to extend this short time when he is well engaged? Any particular training methods?

Please refrain from this nonsense IP/IS discussion..

O.k. so your asking for some possible training methods basically. I do one outside of the box so to speak but I think it may fit you although it does depend on you being quite good at Aikido in the first place.

When someone asks me to try Aikido against what they do and the usual what if questions I usually say I don't know what I'd do if and then qualify it with but I do know I'll do Aikido.

So then I would say, well let's practice what you do and I'll try to do what your doing. So as with a guy of boxing pedigree lately we started sparring boxing wise. Now I am not a boxer and he knows this but I'll tell you what I do. I tune in to the way of boxing. There he is in front of me moving and swaying etc. and I join in like a mirror. Not copying exactly what he does but mirroring the types of motion and movements. One thing I have nice and real is the concept of ma-ai though and the usual result is the other commenting on the surprisingly good movement for a person who doesn't do what they do. So that's the first thing.

Secondly in this situation I have already said how I should easily be beaten, that's not a mind game, I expect to be. I should be actually.

So why? Because I want to experience what they are doing. Thus I have something to look at now from an Aikido perspective and look for what would probably work were I to revert to Aikido.

That's the way I study these things, it's all good prtactice. The solution always comes from principle rather than technique. So you build an awareness of what principle best fits types of situations.

So to finish the story we then went on to me using Aikido. Let's just say he was shocked.

So back to something you can practice if you like and find out if it helps you.

Center line. That verticle line running the length of your body. Practice the following: Face the opponent but have in your mind that you are merely that line. No more, no less. A verticle line that whilst staying verticle can nonetheless move easily.

Now from this view you must know that the only thing you are defending is your center line, not your body. I'll say no more. Try it, you might like it.

Regards.G.

NagaBaba 11-24-2011 08:59 PM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 298074)
He might have been rejecting the dualistic aspect of the confrontation; me beating the opponent with early timing vs not allowing the attack to happen in the first place and in that sense not participating in the game.

Yes, I was thinking about it last few years. It is very clear to me he rejected dualistic aspect not only confrontation but whole 'reality' how we perceive it. What is not clear, how to achieve it using aikido practice.
I see a great difficulty of learning how to not allow the attack and still practice a waza :) Also taking in consideration above, if we use early or late timing, how it is helping to achieve in more advances stage "not allowing the attack to happen"?

Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 298074)
But then O sensei said many things and in Japanese too :-)

It is quite clear we don't want to go in this direction in our discussion :)

NagaBaba 11-24-2011 09:02 PM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Mark Mueller wrote: (Post 298082)
You look for the advantageous line. You re-define the line of attack.

I don't understand it - would you like to explain please?

NagaBaba 11-24-2011 09:07 PM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 298084)

Anyway, how was your trip to Hawaii? Do any Aikido there?

Regards.G.

Hawaii is absolutely beautiful place for vacation. Splendid. Fantastic.So interesting in many aspects.
No, no aikido, I did with Chris and his students some kind of exercises.

NagaBaba 11-24-2011 09:17 PM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Alex Lawrence wrote: (Post 298086)
Is there a practical difference between a good attack and a bad attack if neither hits? If uke makes a good shomen uchi do we find we can't enter in? If it is a bad shomen uchi does this also stop us entering in? No. If quality of technique is affected by the quality uke's attack then uke is in control; they can choose to defend themselves by making a bad attack knowing that it will foul up tori's technique.

When I spar in karate or kick boxing, as I do now and then, I just watch and wait and whatever he does I enter in. They make a kick, I push them over, they make a punch and I charge in. They're too busy making the strike to do much about my irimi. They're fixated on hitting me; their mind has stopped and so has their body.

The key to this, as I see it, is to train the mind. One has to be able to calmly stand and watch the strike coming in until it hits. When this can be done with detachment and indifference I find that there is an aweful lot of time to do something about the strike and so your timing improves. This is my experience anyway. If one tries not to get hit then one ends up doing things to avoid getting hit and so one is not concentrating on defeating the opponent which is the most certain way of not getting hit.
One must not become fixated on the attack; Takuan talks about this extensively in The Unfettered Mind and it's a staple of stories from sword schools that students are beaten until they stop defending themselves and only then are they allowed to even touch a sword. Throw all thought of the attack away otherwise the mind gets stuck on it, throw away all concern for yourself and all the fear that goes with it; body follows mind and you end up reacting to the attack rather than being proactive so your mind must not be fixated on the attack.

The quality and form of the attack is then even more meaningless; it simply becomes the opening needed to allow irimi. Smarter fighters then try to move back and a good shove at this moment is most effective.

oouuuuuuuhhoouuu what a nice post! let me think about it for a while... in the meantime, if commitment is an opening, how this state of mind allows to enlarge this opening?

graham christian 11-24-2011 09:18 PM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 298095)
Hawaii is absolutely beautiful place for vacation. Splendid. Fantastic.So interesting in many aspects.
No, no aikido, I did with Chris and his students some kind of exercises.

Nice.

G.

NagaBaba 11-24-2011 09:21 PM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 298087)

So back to something you can practice if you like and find out if it helps you.

Center line. That verticle line running the length of your body. Practice the following: Face the opponent but have in your mind that you are merely that line. No more, no less. A verticle line that whilst staying verticle can nonetheless move easily.

Now from this view you must know that the only thing you are defending is your center line, not your body. I'll say no more. Try it, you might like it.

Regards.G.

but Graham, how it helps to make attacker commit more?

graham christian 11-24-2011 10:14 PM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 298098)
but Graham, how it helps to make attacker commit more?

What it does first and foremost is teach you to stop worrying about being hit. You will discover that by seeing yourself as center line only it's easy to move for a line doesn't have to move far for something to miss it.

This in turn makes you not worry about the rest of your body and thus it relaxes and you actually become more focussed.

To the opponent, what does he see? What does he think he should see? In fact what does he expect to see?

So in fact it now appears to the opponent that the target is just plum ready to be hit, it attracts him to do so.

It's not so easy to explain in words is it?

Put it this way. You are trying to hit me in the ribs or head with your right hand or hook. You are observing that target area and so quite tuned into it and can see and feel it's ready to move if you try. Me, if playing this game am aware of the threat to the target area and have it primed ready to move or receive impact.

Now, what if I'm not playing this game. I'm leaving it there not ready to move or receive impact for it is of no concern to me. I know if I move center line it will follow so why worry about it. Thus it appears to the attacker it's unguarde and ready for the hitting.

It's a discipline, a skill, a practice. That's my attempt at putting it into words. It is something you can test for yourself though even slowly just to see the difference.

You can stand in front of someone and ask them to hit you in the shoulder for example purely as a slow or medium paced or fast test, however you please. Now you can practice two things and compare.

The firdt one is to focus on moving your shoulder out of the way as he strikes, from close to you by the way, not from two steps away.

You will find you go into the mind set of one of those slap the hand before you can move it games.

O.k. Now try the same from the discipline of I am now going to focus not on the shoilder but only on center line. Thus, as it is not center line being aimed for in this case then it is the focus of merely turning center line thus the body turns and the shoulder turns out of the way. You don't have to move your feet just for the experiment but you can let them move as you see fit or is natural to the exercise.

So one is focussing on moving shoulder out of the way and the other is focussing on turning center line with no regard to shoulder.

On seeing and feeling the difference then also enquire of the person doing it what it felt like to him. Was one somehow different to the other for him. So don't tell him beforehand what you are doing. Then you will get an unbiased assessment.

Regards.G.

Eva Antonia 11-25-2011 02:47 AM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Hi,

being a long-time zombie-attacker myself, I started karate to improve my attacks (thinking that tsuki is the most important and realistic attack and that my tsuki sucks especially). Karate is fun, and if I attack better, then this should also reflect on my aikido.

Sadly, it doesn't (yet). There are still some essential things I miss if someone attacks me with a real tsuki.

Among the zombie attacks, I have most problem with this sort of hybrid shomen-yokomen uchi. But then this is again more MY problem than the attacker's. It means that I am not flexible enough to adapt my response to an attack that is not really clear in aikido terms. But if you were attacked in the street, no thug would think of the difference between shomen and yokomen, he would just want to slap me in my face or hit me with his knife. And probably he would do it with a wrong distance.

However, if ever I get to the level of becoming a teacher, I'd focus more on attacks. I'd like to teach, if ever I get there, how to attack efficiently so that the person attacked wouldn't nourish the illusion that he is able to defend himself efficiently, only because he can do this against the zombie attacks. Instead, maybe he would learn one day how to defend himself against a realistic attack. I'd encourage students to cross-training, or I'd invite people from other martial arts to the dojo in order to have some exchange and get more realistic about our own limitations (and improve them). But all these are dreams for the future. Yesterday I got stuck on performing ikkyo on a nice and clearly delivered yokomen uchi, so there is still a long way to go.

Best regards,

Eva

Dazzler 11-25-2011 03:23 AM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 298051)

How you deal with such situation? I mean how to discover the moment he decides to attack? And how to extend this short time when he is well engaged? Any particular training methods?

.

How to deal? In the dojo....the best I can. If I struggle and screw up. Well....it was a good attack....better luck next time.

Outside of the dojo...I don't wait for the attack.....I prempt it. I hit first.

How to discover the moment before the attack? ....any training methods?

Yes - It helps to train against these good attacks ....but if they are really good its really hard ...I think you know this or you wouldn't be asking ....but for real results you need to nip it in the bud...act early, recognise the conversation spiralling downhill and disengage appropriately....or not.

Basically - Study people. Watch conversations, watch how violence begins and escalates. Practice dialogue...Argue with someone, study the body, how conversation works? trigger points, fence breaks....all with the aim of knowing just how people act on the way to that point where they decide the right thing to do is to hit you.

There's a section of humanity that will just walk up and shank someone while smiling at them...or from behind. Apart from not being there there is no obvious way to deal with this...its just bad luck ...maybe have a blood oath with a friend to take retribution for you, but thats about it.

Theres also professional violence - the military guys and police may have differing views.

But for the other stuff...read up on this guy and his genre...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_T...n_%28writer%29

Best regards

D

Mark Freeman 11-25-2011 03:30 AM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 298051)
99.99% attackers in aikido don't know how to deliver a difficult attack.

Nothing like a sweeping generalisation to get a good discussion going, eh?

Dazzler 11-25-2011 03:34 AM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote: (Post 298124)
Nothing like a sweeping generalisation to get a good discussion going, eh?

ha ha...I was going to use 99.9 % to exclude psychopaths in my post...but it slipped away in the excitement of pressing the submit reply button!

Mark Freeman 11-25-2011 03:51 AM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Daren Sims wrote: (Post 298125)
ha ha...I was going to use 99.9 % to exclude psychopaths in my post...but it slipped away in the excitement of pressing the submit reply button!

:D See how your carefully trained responses can just evaporate, when the adrenalin takes over!:D

Dazzler 11-25-2011 03:57 AM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote: (Post 298127)
:D See how your carefully trained responses can just evaporate, when the adrenalin takes over!:D

Carefully trained? me...hell, I'm just a beginner....Geoff Thompsons the man.

Anyway ...not sure I should be talking to you...we might blow our cover as IP/IS terrorists!

sakumeikan 11-25-2011 05:47 AM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Daren Sims wrote: (Post 298128)
Carefully trained? me...hell, I'm just a beginner....Geoff Thompsons the man.

Anyway ...not sure I should be talking to you...we might blow our cover as IP/IS terrorists!

Daren,
Dont know about you being an IP/Is terrorist.You terrify me. Cheers, Joe http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

Dazzler 11-25-2011 06:22 AM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 298134)
Daren,
Dont know about you being an IP/Is terrorist.You terrify me. Cheers, Joe http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

ha ha - I terrify myself joe...shouldn't be allowed near a keyboard really,,,, I hear you were quite a formidable uke 'back in the day'..before you became the fine gentleman you are today - so perhaps its me that should be terrified of you.

Good to see you here as always.

D

danielajames 11-25-2011 06:58 AM

Re: Commitment into the attack
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 298092)
Also taking in consideration above, if we use early or late timing, how it is helping to achieve in more advances stage "not allowing the attack to happen"?

This is a nice way to push the kata to understanding aiki a bit better, from there hopefully some new understanding/insights emerge


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