AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   General (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1)
-   -   aikido kobayashi (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20565)

lidor3160 11-22-2011 10:49 AM

aikido kobayashi
 
I practiced Aikido Aikkai 4 months. And spread.
I want to return to practice.
And we have Aikido Kobayashi teacher Dan 5.
There is a difference between Kobayashi to Aikkai?
I mean Kobayashi Ryu. By Hirokazu Kobayashi.
The teacher said that the only difference is Kobayashi using both hands. And Aikkai one hand. Is that true?
Thank you.:)

NagaBaba 11-22-2011 11:07 AM

Re: aikido kobayashi
 
Quote:

Lidor Levi wrote: (Post 297785)
I practiced Aikido Aikkai 4 months. And spread.
I want to return to practice.
And we have Aikido Kobayashi teacher Dan 5.
There is a difference between Kobayashi to Aikkai?
I mean Kobayashi Ryu. By Hirokazu Kobayashi.
The teacher said that the only difference is Kobayashi using both hands. And Aikkai one hand. Is that true?
Thank you.:)

No, it is not true. What a very stupid explanationů.

H. Kobayashi sensei developed very sophisticated level of aikido. It means they almost don't have static exercises or techniques; as a consequence they don't practice against very strong static attacks. The reason is simple -- transmission such high level of aikido to the beginners is not possible without full cooperation or over cooperation of attacker during many years. So you practice many years and can't verify a real efficiency of your techniques. Also they developed a lot of complicated visualizations and intellectual explanations, which in the end is another weak point of this system.

They have particular very complete warm up/solo exercises system called Aiki taiso. It is very painful, but good aspect of it is that it push you to your limits and even further.
There is also very complete system of weapons.
Overall I'd recommend this teaching to advanced students, not for beginners.

lidor3160 11-22-2011 11:33 AM

Re: aikido kobayashi
 
That you mean? Http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPzG8...eature=related
I did it also Aikkai.
Students of teacher told me. Kobayashi much more effective. Is that true?
Thank you very much.
I'm sorry if there are spelling mistakes. This is what Google.:)

lidor3160 11-22-2011 11:59 AM

Re: aikido kobayashi
 
That is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B2PMwdD2cc
Aikido Kobayashi common in Japan?
Student's teacher told me. Kobayashi more effective. Is that true?
There are many recommendations on the teacher. I think I will try.
Do you know where the Hombu Dojo of Kobayashi.
Thank you.
I'm sorry about spelling mistakes.'s Google's translation.

robin_jet_alt 11-22-2011 09:27 PM

Re: aikido kobayashi
 
Quote:

Lidor Levi wrote: (Post 297790)
That you mean? Http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPzG8...eature=related
Students of teacher told me. Kobayashi much more effective. Is that true?

I always always ALWAYS take this sort of statement with a grain of salt. I find most schools will make this sort of claim. On the whole, I think any style of aikido is very effective when done well. It all boils down to the individual teacher. I know nothing about this Kobayashi-ryu, but I imagine the same applies to this school.

jlbrewer 11-22-2011 09:32 PM

Re: aikido kobayashi
 
"taiso", from what I can tell, is the generic word for "body conditioning", a.k.a. calisthenics. By itself it doesn't imply anything about what sort of exercise it is, but if it's different from the ones in that video I'd be surprised.

ewolput 11-23-2011 02:31 AM

Re: aikido kobayashi
 
In the seventies I have trained a few years with Hirokazu Kobayashi as an example. He came frequently to Holland and Belgium. His style of aikido was very minimalistic. Power started in the middle of his body and with circular or spiral movements he was able to control the attack of the opponent without stopping the opponents movement. The attack (action of the opponent) became a movement of the opponent (without danger for tori) and the energy was skillfully turned into a control action or throwing action by him (Kobayashi).
About the Taiso, without a good instruction, those taiso are just gymnastic exercises. He explained them very well, but I am afraid I didn't understood it very well in that time. I took a lot of notes what he was saying and until recently I started to understand what he was teaching in those taiso.
Without understanding the principle of spiral ( he mentioned it as the principle of meguri) his aikido will become a form of a martial dance with elements usefull for self defense, but far away from Morihei Ueshiba's aikido.
Once I tried to him to resist and before I realised I was on the floor. He used the principle behind the waza of shiho nage.
Just some old memories of this deshi of Morihei Ueshiba.
Eddy

lidor3160 11-23-2011 05:44 AM

Re: aikido kobayashi
 
Aikido Kobayashi common in Japan?
Do you know where the Hombu Dojo of Kobayashi.

NagaBaba 11-23-2011 09:30 AM

Re: aikido kobayashi
 
Quote:

Lidor Levi wrote: (Post 297796)
That is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B2PMwdD2cc
Aikido Kobayashi common in Japan?
Student's teacher told me. Kobayashi more effective. Is that true?
There are many recommendations on the teacher. I think I will try.
Do you know where the Hombu Dojo of Kobayashi.
Thank you.
I'm sorry about spelling mistakes.'s Google's translation.

No. H.Kobayashi sensei developed his own system of aiki taiso which is VERY different from aiki taiso aikikai or any other aikido style. I don't think you can find it on youtube. They tend to keep them private, even aiki taiso seminars are often not accessible for students from other federations.

There is no hombu dojo for this style of aikido. All senior students of sensei practice separately and formed their own federations. They are in Japan(mainly Osaka), Italy, France, Belgium\Holland?, Poland and I think in Germany.

Eddy - nice memories. I also was lucky to be able to follow few seminars with sensei while living in Belgium. Effectively meguri was one of very important concept in his approach. H.Kobayashi sensei was one of important influences for my aikido even if I studied later with other shihans.

David Yap 11-24-2011 12:52 AM

Re: aikido kobayashi
 
Quote:

Lidor Levi wrote: (Post 297878)
Aikido Kobayashi common in Japan?
Do you know where the Hombu Dojo of Kobayashi.

Anywhere else but Japan. Perhaps you can do a search in Japanese :D

http://www.aikido-kobayashi.org/en/k...the-world.html

DodgingRain 11-24-2011 03:40 PM

Re: aikido kobayashi
 
Eddy, nice post.

As you go back over your notes, Id be interested in hearing how you interpret them today with what you now know.

Id love to hear more specifics/details about this Kobayashi Sensei's taiso from his students or someone in the know. Sounds interesting, but if Szczepan is right then I wont hold my breath. Too bad..

Ellis Amdur 11-24-2011 03:56 PM

Re: aikido kobayashi
 
I have been unable to find the reference, but I once came across an article about Kobayashi, where Takeda Tokimune was described as observing the practice and commenting publicly, (my best recollection) "This is real Daito-ryu. No one is doing this these days."

Which leads to a couple of thoughts, only slightly tangential:
Terry Dobson said to me that Ueshiba "had this quality where he'd show you something and you'd get the impression he was saying, 'I'm showing you the real stuff. All these other guys - I'm just showing them what they can understand, but you, I'm giving you the real goods.'" Terry then continued, "I've no doubt all the other deshi got the same message. But based on my experience with him, I honestly believe he meant it in my case. I'm the only one who thinks it's funny, though."

That said, I've had a theory for some time that Ueshiba used each "center" of Aikido (Iwama, Shingu, Osaka of Tanaka Bansen, Osaka of Kobayashi Hirokazu, etc.) to study a certain principle he was interested in. In other words, each group was a set of crash-test dummies of one aspect of his art. Otherwise, how could Kobayashi and Saito, for example, be contemporaneous? Saito recalls Ueshiba looking at him in the bath one day and telling him that he was too physically weak. Saito started doing weight lifting with a rail-road tie.

In HIPS, I implicitly suggested that no one was listening and watching well enough. How about an alternative hypothesis that Ueshiba sectored off his presentations and instructions so that each group/shihan, in fact, did get something different. In part, this was according to their character (hence, Terry got the "aiki is love" because that poor guy was so looking for it at the time), and in part, Ueshiba just decided that's what he wanted to work on.

Best
Ellis Amdur

DH 11-25-2011 12:35 AM

Re: aikido kobayashi
 
You can add Shirata to the camp of doing Daito ryu. And Mochizuki who told Tamura (one prewar Deshi to a post war deshi) you are not doing real aikido.
Your theory is reminiscent of my own about Takeda; the reason that Daito ryu looked so different among the schools was his using them as a playground to experiment on. There is enough circumstantial evidence to present a case that they were both modifying prior research and making this stuff up as they went along and grew. Experimenting on whoever showed up to serve their need at the time. This "never repeating a technique" they were both known for, doesn't smell right from any koryu standpoint I can think of. If it were true at all.
Dan

ewolput 11-25-2011 04:29 AM

Re: aikido kobayashi
 
Kobayashi aikitaiso : http://kielce.aikido.art.pl/aikitaiso.html#taiso
This gives you an idea about the Kobayashi taiso;
The rowing exercise, when the arms are forward, they are not on 1 line. In Tohei's model the hands are on 1 line when forward.
Kobayashi stressed to start movement from the pelvis. Some of the taiso are designed to create a better use of the pelvis, or maybe it is better to say with the chinese word kua.
How he used his body you can see : http://www.youtube.com/user/nicoaiki.../0/AALpKk8ipCI
There are more clips of Kobayashi on the channel of this uploader.

Enjoy,
Eddy


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:16 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.