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-   -   History: Takeda Sokaku's First Successor (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20535)

Ellis Amdur 11-17-2011 08:33 AM

History: Takeda Sokaku's First Successor
 
To once again underscore how absolutely essential to a true understanding of the history of the development of aikido - and Daito-ryu - is Stan Pranin's Aikido Journal, consider this brief http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2011/1...untold-story/:

And in particular, this passage:
Quote:

Soon thereafter, Morihei invites Sokaku to live in his house in Shirataki, and learns from him along with 15 or 16 of his "servants and disciples." We don't have precise information about how long Sokaku stayed in Morihei's house, but we do know that a short time later Takeda would uproot his family and settle in Shirataki which became his residence for the rest of his life. This rather surprising action on the part of Sokaku reveals the importance he attached to Morihei as his student of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. In fact, an unpublished interview with the Founder states clearly that Sokaku had asked him to become his successor around this time. Sokaku certainly had high regard for Morihei's abilities as a martial artist and considered him suitable character-wise to succeed him. Surely, Morihei's study of Daito-ryu jujutsu during this period was intense and protracted and built the martial foundation upon which his later career rested.
Quote:

Morihei's invitation to Sokaku to come live with him in Shirataki also meant that Takeda would stop his normal teaching activities to concentrate on teaching Morihei and his comrades.
Quote:

Even after Sokaku moved out of Morihei's house, he established residence in Shirataki and built his own home which was located physically within short walking distance of Morihei as a map from that period confirms.
First of all, this establishes that Ueshiba did not merely study for thirty days when they first met (I know, this has been addressed elsewhere, when looking at the complete trajectory of Ueshiba and Takeda's career) - highlighting a substantial period, probably several years where they had regular, even daily contact.

Second, Stanley is releasing new information at a rapid pace. Anyone who wishes to assert anything about aikido history - it's development and nature - who doesn't have a membership on Aikido Journal (incredibly cheap yearly fee) will be speaking from ignorance.

Ellis Amdur

Demetrio Cereijo 11-17-2011 09:01 AM

Re: History: Takeda Sokaku's First Successor
 
Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote: (Post 297233)
Second, Stanley is releasing new information at a rapid pace. Anyone who wishes to assert anything about aikido history - it's development and nature - who doesn't have a membership on Aikido Journal (incredibly cheap yearly fee) will be speaking from ignorance.

Even if people paid attention to what Pranin has been releasing for free it would be a great advancement.

DH 11-17-2011 10:06 AM

Re: History: Takeda Sokaku's First Successor
 
There is an area of debate where Ueshiba stated he gave Takeda a home.
Some time later, when Takeda heard of it he sent a letter to Ueshiba, delivered by Sato, which clarified that the house was one of many that had been destroyed by fire, and essentially he gifted a burned out mess on a small plot of land that Takeda demolished and built a house on.
I believe the letter outlines several areas of gossip or stories that got back to Takeda. The letter was more or less addressing a series of questions (five I believe) of "Why are you lying about me?"

Secondarily, Ellis is correct about prolonged training times of Takeda's deshi. This was not for Ueshiba alone. Tasio Horikawa and Sagawa's talk of lengthy training sessions outside of formal seminars. What is also not discussed is their own training between Takeda visits. In those long winters I suspect thousands of hours were added up in their pursuit of aiki.

On succession
I think it was clear that Tokimune was to succeed Takeda. Sagawa was asked to in case of Tokimune's death and there was some sort of written document Sagawa asked for. Appearence can be dicey. Ueshiba was undoubtedly one of his favorites. Was he THEE guy? How much can we trust from third party history? Who can really know. He created Menkyo Kaidens, so he allowed transmission. Since he never claimed to be soke who could he award soke to?
Succession with Takeda might have been as flighty as his art; no history of densho anywhere, then he has the only known copies that appeared with him, then he added scrolls, the creation of a Menkyo, etc. Some of which seemed painfully transparent.

The new information dump by Stan is incredible.
Dan

Demetrio Cereijo 11-17-2011 10:35 AM

Re: History: Takeda Sokaku's First Successor
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 297245)
On succession
I think it was clear that Tokimune was to succeed Takeda.

I think at that times Tokimune was too young. Maybe Sokaku wanted to insure his art sucession, just in case something bad happened to Tokimune.

Quote:

Sagawa was asked to in case of Tokimune's death and there was some sort of written document Sagawa asked for.
But that was when Tokimune went to serve in the military, isn't it?

And, what about the claims from Kakuyoshi Yamamoto camp about him being appointed sucessor by sokaku himself in his latter days?


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