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graham christian 11-07-2011 10:05 AM

Overriding uke's determinism
 
This point was brought up in the complacent uke thread quite a bit but not as a topic but more as a reason not to do something. Thus I wonder if it's the wrong word being used instead of pain or do those who say this believe that's a rule?

Trust was brought up too to go along with this not overriding of determinism.

I say a dojo is a place of inherent trust but that has nothing to do with overriding ukes determinism and in fact your whole job in Aikido is to do just that.

Aikido is all about overriding determinism and so is harmony may I add.

I would also say that if you can't do that then you will lose the trust of uke.

Is this not the case?

Regards.G.

kewms 11-07-2011 10:41 AM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Your post makes no sense. There are too many pronouns and not enough nouns. Please clarify.

Katherine

graham christian 11-07-2011 11:13 AM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: (Post 296158)
Your post makes no sense. There are too many pronouns and not enough nouns. Please clarify.

Katherine

I Am saying that Aikido is about overriding ukes determinism.

Regards.G.

kewms 11-07-2011 11:24 AM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 296159)
I Am saying that Aikido is about overriding ukes determinism.

Regards.G.

Ok. But what does that even mean?

Katherine

Ketsan 11-07-2011 02:33 PM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 296159)
I Am saying that Aikido is about overriding ukes determinism.

Regards.G.

By determinism are you refering to the fact that uke invariably ends up on the floor and because of this there is a tendancy for uke to develop a defeatist mentality and so rather deterministically they do anything they can to get themselves on the floor.

SeiserL 11-07-2011 04:11 PM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Do we "override" their determinism or blend and redirect it?

Since energy follows our thoughts/focus, and I tend to think in words, the semantics make a difference.

Thoughts?

raul rodrigo 11-07-2011 04:11 PM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
"Determinism is the general philosophical thesis that states that for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given them, nothing else could happen."

Gorgeous George 11-07-2011 04:19 PM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Quote:

Raul Rodrigo wrote: (Post 296170)
"Determinism is the general philosophical thesis that states that for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given them, nothing else could happen."

...there's the definition of a word...then there's Graham's definition of a word at any particular time.

Gerardo Torres 11-07-2011 04:23 PM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Quote:

Graham Jenkins wrote: (Post 296173)
...there's the definition of a word...then there's Graham's definition of a word at any particular time.

Tsk, tsk, you just don't understand. It's all good.

Keith Larman 11-07-2011 05:28 PM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Determinism contains the notion of a particular chain of events being the only possible outcome. If it is possible to "change" this somehow, it is not strictly deterministic. So are we using the term more loosely to say we're trying to make uke do something a bit other than what he/she wanted? In which case it seems like a rather banal and self-evident proposition. Unless your martial art involves simply being punched out I would imagine the idea is to somewhat alter the course of events... But then again that doesn't sound nearly as deep and mystical as you wave away the bong-fog...

raul rodrigo 11-07-2011 05:43 PM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
I thought it was about overriding uke's intention to stay vertical.

graham christian 11-07-2011 08:50 PM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Raul and Keith. This seems like a good starting point, clarifying the meaning of the word.

Raul your definition of general philosophical thesis, wow, I don't know that one. Keith yours again of some unchangeable chain of events, wow, I don't know that one either. So before anyone says I'm using an unknown definition, a graham definition, I assure you I am using pure, clear, standard as per dictionary definition. So any misunderstanding isn't from me.

Determine......root meaning (detrminare- latin-to set limits to)

Definition.....a)to make up ones mind very firmly b)to fix or settle beforehand, decide. c) to be the deciding fact in reaching (a certain result)

So it's to do with the above. now add self as in self determined.

So the meaning I am using here is action caused and done by self will. In other words not caused by exterior forces. So a bang making you jump is an other determined action (caused by something else)
Jumping because you want to is a self determined action.

So that clears what I mean by sef determinism I hope.

So my original statement above says to override what uke wants, demands, is doing.

Regards.G.

Shadowfax 11-07-2011 08:53 PM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Hmmm..... been trying to understand this discussion all day but even after examining the meaning of the word determinism I'm having trouble. You see I have been taught that as uke I should be looking to override nage's determinism......

While I am still learning how to make it happen I believe I am supposed to always be looking for the opportunity to reverse the technique therefore, in my mind ,as uke there is no unavoidable, inevitable, outcome. Of course now I am only a 3rd kyu with only two short years of training so perhaps I am still not understanding what the OP is trying to discuss.....?

graham christian 11-07-2011 09:00 PM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: (Post 296160)
Ok. But what does that even mean?

Katherine

Katherine. If you have read the above post then you have what I mean by self determinism.

Now the basic concept of the thread called compliant ukes is to do with an uke doing what the nage wants wouldn't you say. Isn't that what compliancy is? It's being other determined rather than self determined.?

So I'm basically saying that uke when he holds or attacks should be self determined. ie: of firm made up mind, resolute. Non compliant.

That's ukes job. Therefore nages job is learning how to overcome that.

That's the simplicity of what I'm saying.

Regards.G.

graham christian 11-07-2011 09:05 PM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Quote:

Cherie Cornmesser wrote: (Post 296202)
Hmmm..... been trying to understand this discussion all day but even after examining the meaning of the word determinism I'm having trouble. You see I have been taught that as uke I should be looking to override nage's determinism......

While I am still learning how to make it happen I believe I am supposed to always be looking for the opportunity to reverse the technique therefore, in my mind ,as uke there is no unavoidable, inevitable, outcome. Of course now I am only a 3rd kyu with only two short years of training so perhaps I am still not understanding what the OP is trying to discuss.....?

Hi Cherie. I think you are using the same definition so that's fine.

So you see it's brought up a view, your view, which you feel is different. O.k.

Well let me ask you this. Step one. uke holds nages wrist. What is uke doing self determinedly?

Regards.G.

graham christian 11-07-2011 09:08 PM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Quote:

Alex Lawrence wrote: (Post 296167)
By determinism are you refering to the fact that uke invariably ends up on the floor and because of this there is a tendancy for uke to develop a defeatist mentality and so rather deterministically they do anything they can to get themselves on the floor.

No, I'm saying uke is self determinedly trying to do something to you.

Regards.G.

graham christian 11-07-2011 09:25 PM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote: (Post 296169)
Do we "override" their determinism or blend and redirect it?

Since energy follows our thoughts/focus, and I tend to think in words, the semantics make a difference.

Thoughts?

Hi Lynn. By your question I see you get it and have already questioned how and if it relates to blending.

I look at it this way. As nage it is my job to allow them to keep their self determinism. To allow them to complete their mission. So blending with takes on a slightly different perspective. It's to completely join with what they are doing at which point you are at one with. At that point then for them there is nothing to go against, no opponent, so they change their mind. You, by harmony have caused this to happen and as they let go of their self determinism they thus join with yours.

So in effect you have overridden their self determinism without going against it. As you say by blending.

Now the point of redirecting it. Well, aikido wise, your dterminism was to bring about a harmonious ending so that place is already there and now they follow you or your energy to that place.So once again the redirection is done by them entering into accordance with you.

That's my view. Hope i've put it clearly.

Regards.G.

graham christian 11-07-2011 10:17 PM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Quote:

Cherie Cornmesser wrote: (Post 296202)
Hmmm..... been trying to understand this discussion all day but even after examining the meaning of the word determinism I'm having trouble. You see I have been taught that as uke I should be looking to override nage's determinism......

While I am still learning how to make it happen I believe I am supposed to always be looking for the opportunity to reverse the technique therefore, in my mind ,as uke there is no unavoidable, inevitable, outcome. Of course now I am only a 3rd kyu with only two short years of training so perhaps I am still not understanding what the OP is trying to discuss.....?

Cherie. I'm adding another answer to your post here because I've got to go now before youreply to the last one. So I thought I'D say this;

Your idea that uke is meant to overcome nages determinism is also true. Both are true. That's the game in Aikido.

When you hold the wrist or tsuki then at that point or prior to that point the nage didn't want to be hit did he so you are already overriding his determinism. Then it is for him to harmonize and oveeride yours. Then if he doesn't do it properly and you regain 'balance' you can counter and overcome his.

So there you are, both sides are trying to do it.

Now the first difference here I would say is to remind ourselves what the first action in the cycle is meant to represent. It represents an unasked for determined physical act against you. As uke that's the original role you are playing, the bad guy.

So that shows that uke is in fact doing something you wouldn't like. A hold says what? That question isn't as strange as it may seem for it represents something.

A hold says gotcha! A hold says you can't move. A hold says you're trapped. So uke when holding is meant to represent such things. People don't like feeling got, or that they cant move or feeling trapped.

That's why overcoming these has great psychological benefit as well. The benefits riplle out into life.

Regards.G.

Keith Larman 11-07-2011 10:38 PM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
FWIW...

Quote:

Determinism. de·ter·min·ism/diˈtərməˌnizəm/ Noun: The doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will.
Or to use Webster's

Quote:

de·ter·min·ism noun \di-ˈtər-mə-ˌni-zəm, dē-\

Definition of DETERMINISM

1
a : a theory or doctrine that acts of the will, occurrences in nature, or social or psychological phenomena are causally determined by preceding events or natural laws
b : a belief in predestination
2
: the quality or state of being determined
— de·ter·min·ist noun or adjective
— de·ter·min·is·tic adjective
— de·ter·min·is·ti·cal·ly adverb
Definition 2 pretty much encapsulates the notions of definition 1 including the predestination aspect.

I see what you're saying now, but again I think you're making up meanings as you go. That's not exactly conducive to communication...

Anthony Loeppert 11-08-2011 12:04 AM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 296201)
So that clears what I mean by sef determinism I hope.
Regards.G.

You still miss the point that determine or its past tense, determined, isn't the same thing as adding ism at the end which totally changes the meaning. The word you are for some reason avoiding is determination.

kewms 11-08-2011 12:32 AM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 296203)
So I'm basically saying that uke when he holds or attacks should be self determined. ie: of firm made up mind, resolute. Non compliant.

Resolute and non-compliant are not synonyms. But never mind that. I'm still failing to see the point.

I mean, I read the words, and I think I understand what you're saying. Thank you for that clarification. It just seems to be a somewhat obvious statement.

Katherine

kewms 11-08-2011 12:43 AM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 296210)
Now the first difference here I would say is to remind ourselves what the first action in the cycle is meant to represent. It represents an unasked for determined physical act against you. As uke that's the original role you are playing, the bad guy.

Maybe. Or maybe nage is the bad guy, and I'm grabbing his wrist because he was about to draw his sword on me. Or hit me. Sometimes good guys need to attack, too. :D

Katherine

Tim Ruijs 11-08-2011 01:31 AM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
I would not say 'override'.
In my view you try to make aite believe he can achieve his goal, but by the time he is there the context has changed. When aite strikes chudan tsuki, I let him attack and execute kimu subi to maintain proper ma ai. At the moment aite's fist arrives at his initial targeted point of impact I have moved without him being able to do anything about it (he was commited to the attack). So he did strike, I was not hit. Did I really override him? I believe not.
Another approach is act when aite is about to strike: you enter deep (irimi) and block his attacking arm. Aite is committed to strike, but you override his body and prevent the strike. Aite was still very determined, did I override that? I believe not.
In both cases I 'meremly' override his manifestation of his determination...

Tim Ruijs 11-08-2011 01:34 AM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: (Post 296215)
Maybe. Or maybe nage is the bad guy, and I'm grabbing his wrist because he was about to draw his sword on me. Or hit me. Sometimes good guys need to attack, too. :D

Katherine

I am not so sure that taking the initiative in a fight makes you the 'bad' guy....
The bad guy it would seem is the one with bad intentions, but that is OT. :D
And that is relative too....

Demetrio Cereijo 11-08-2011 02:37 AM

Re: Overriding uke's determinism
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 296159)
I Am saying that Aikido is about overriding ukes determinism.

Do you consider uke as a wave or as a particle?


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