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-   -   walking in a circle technique?? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20489)

feck 11-07-2011 06:04 AM

walking in a circle technique??
 
Hi people,

Its been a long time coming back to this art. There is a technique I'm having problems with where you virtually walk uke in a circle. I cannot think of the name, but it can lead to many different techniques or you could I suppose walk them around you in a circle for ever i suppose. I'm looking for the name of this technique and also if possible any good simple single person type tutorials on footwork that i can practice at home.

It starts with uke stepping in to grab your wrist, you blend with them awase and then you turn them effectively walking them almost 360 degrees around you before carrying out another technique. Its the walking in a circle part I'm having a problem with, stepping, turning at the hips, footwork etc, what comes first and so on

I thought initially i was supposed to be stepping back constantly in a circle, but now I'm aware that basically it seems your walking forward in a circle. It feels highly unusual and awkward doing this technique, as all new techniques feel, and was wondering if there were some good online tutorials for this, ones that i can practice at home on my own ie single person practice, footwork, turning etc.

Sorry if this post is in the wrong place.......

Eva Antonia 11-07-2011 07:30 AM

Re: walking in a circle technique??
 
irimi nage ura.
I don't know about tutorials, but if you write just that in you tube you'll find a huge number of videos.

Best,

Eva

LinTal 11-07-2011 07:45 AM

Re: walking in a circle technique??
 
Welcome back!

Okay, it sounds like 'irimi nage' to me too. There are a few links bundled with that at our FB site . A good place to start is the techniques waza menu at AikidoStudent, the Doshu aikido tutorials (on YouTube), and the tutorials from Expertvillage (on YouTube). If you have an iphone, the iBudokan app is frikkin awesome. If in doubt, look up 'Hombu dojo instructions' on YouTube, find the technique that looks closest, and tell us the time in so we can keep working it out.

Janet Rosen 11-07-2011 07:58 AM

Re: walking in a circle technique??
 
Since OP says it is merely a lead in to a variety of techniques, it sounds to me like basic blending exercise (kokyu ho) followed by extension to move uke forward off-balance.
If so, Darren, I would say the focus is not on "walking uke around you" but 1. connecting with uke on the initial move then 2. imbalancing uke forward then 3. continuing to extend forward with uke, keeping your energy forward, your inside foot forward, inside hip extending forward while you let your center rotate away from uke (the result is your outside hip and foot kick back, but you are explicitly NOT stepping back/away from uke, you are continuing an extending turning movement)

Tim Ruijs 11-07-2011 08:07 AM

Re: walking in a circle technique??
 
tenkan ura? if such exists...

I agree it sounds much like blending and stay center of movement. But use it as starting point for many techniques I do not get. At least not doing almost 360....

Janet Rosen 11-07-2011 08:37 AM

Re: walking in a circle technique??
 
Quote:

Tim Ruijs wrote: (Post 296144)
tenkan ura? if such exists...

I agree it sounds much like blending and stay center of movement. But use it as starting point for many techniques I do not get. At least not doing almost 360....

Actually, quite common exercise in many Aikikai dojos in the USA. Tai no henko is often then used to lead into techniques, sometimes via a full 180 degree turn or more...I personally don't like its use as a starting point for techniques because I believe it is very rarely done properly and just encourages collusive uke habits (as in "you mean it's NOT my job to run in a circle around you?")

Look at third version in this video: Darren, is this what you are describing? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8dY2RhowoU

graham christian 11-07-2011 09:39 AM

Re: walking in a circle technique??
 
Sounds like a drill to me. The description and problems encountered are very recognisable to the way I do things.

I would ask you to find out what that basic motion is called first before asking for advice. The basic motion that leads to the techniques, what your teacher calls it.

I get students doing this as a drill but it is drilling a particular motion. Tenkan is one and tai sabaki is the other. The focus changes as the drill progresses or the competence increases.

Yes it's a leading drill but based on those motions and taking center of the action or 'technique'.

At first the students attention wil be on turning in and hips. Then turning in and hips whilst extending out.
Then feet as you describe. So back to learning more about opening hips and turning on the spot without feet going heel first and thus backwards. Then more and then more. So basically all I can say is it's part of the process so carry on learning.

That's my take.

Regards.G.

Dan Rubin 11-07-2011 10:19 AM

Re: walking in a circle technique??
 
Walk around a "hula hoop," heel-to-toe, always keeping the edges of your feet in contact with the hoop. You can walk along the inside or the outside of the hoop. If you want, as you walk reach forward with your outside arm and imagine uke hanging on to your extended wrist, walking alongside you. Once you get the hang of this, try it with a smaller hoop (perhaps a crochet hoop).

The keys are (1) to walk heel-to-toe, because that's what you'll have to do once the circle gets very small, and (2) to keep the edges of your feet in contact with the hoop. If your feet lose contact with the hoop, you will lose contact with uke and will no longer be leading uke in a circle.

kewms 11-07-2011 10:52 AM

Re: walking in a circle technique??
 
I agree that you should ask your teacher for a name. He, or one of the senior students at your dojo, would also be a good person to ask about this exercise's purpose and technical details. It's very hard to give useful advice over the internet when we aren't even sure what you're trying to accomplish.

With that said, this sounds like a tenkan exercise to me as well. Except that I don't teach it as "walking uke in a circle. " More like displacing uke so that you can occupy his space.

*If* I've got the right exercise, it's pretty fundamental and can be used to explore lots of different things. You're not going to "master" it in a matter of weeks or even months.

Katherine

Dan Rubin 11-07-2011 11:07 AM

Re: walking in a circle technique??
 
It sounds to me that the OP is practicing Ki-Aikido, or a derivative of it, in which nage does lead uke in a circle. At the beginning level the circle is large, like a hula hoop, and as the student advances he/she learns how to make the circle smaller and smaller until it seems not to be there (but it is).

feck 11-07-2011 11:14 AM

Re: walking in a circle technique??
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 296146)
Actually, quite common exercise in many Aikikai dojos in the USA. Tai no henko is often then used to lead into techniques, sometimes via a full 180 degree turn or more...I personally don't like its use as a starting point for techniques because I believe it is very rarely done properly and just encourages collusive uke habits (as in "you mean it's NOT my job to run in a circle around you?")

Look at third version in this video: Darren, is this what you are describing? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8dY2RhowoU

Thankyou Janet. It is indeed the tae no henko ki no nagare movement you pointed out as the 3rd move in that video. Im sorry guys if i did not make myself as clear as i could have.
Ive seen it practised with almost 360 degree turn, and understand your point about uke's role as in should they just keep holding, but if done correctly there is no mistaking ukes role, they will remain transfixed through their own forward momentum, constantly off balance, trying to stand upright and guided around by nage ??

Abasan 11-07-2011 11:25 AM

Re: walking in a circle technique??
 
You don't walk him, you 'ride' on his power. This cannot be achieved without Atari from both but especially important from uke.

I'm thinking it's tenkan... But works about the same in irimi too.

The whole point of this exercise is not timing, it's whether you can feel uke's power and tap it.

kewms 11-07-2011 11:31 AM

Re: walking in a circle technique??
 
Quote:

Darren Paul wrote: (Post 296155)
Ive seen it practised with almost 360 degree turn, and understand your point about uke's role as in should they just keep holding, but if done correctly there is no mistaking ukes role, they will remain transfixed through their own forward momentum, constantly off balance, trying to stand upright and guided around by nage ??

Why doesn't uke just let go? You might find contemplation of that question rewarding. "Because that's the kata" is not the correct answer. Rather, uke holds on because the connection protects him. But where's the attack? If you don't know, you probably aren't doing this exercise correctly.

FWIW, I didn't find the video Janet posted particularly convincing. It looks to me -- especially in the third segment -- like uke could stand upright and recover her balance quite easily. Think about why, and what nage might do to fix the problem.

Katherine

Janet Rosen 11-07-2011 02:42 PM

Re: walking in a circle technique??
 
Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: (Post 296157)
FWIW, I didn't find the video Janet posted particularly convincing. It looks to me -- especially in the third segment -- like uke could stand upright and recover her balance quite easily. Think about why, and what nage might do to fix the problem.

Katherine

Quite agree - It's a very good example of why I think in many dojos this is often not a very productive exercise - except in training overly compliant ukes.

robin_jet_alt 11-07-2011 08:06 PM

Re: walking in a circle technique??
 
Hi Darren,

I have seen 2 major variations of this, and you just described both of them. The one in Janet's video is the one I have seen in dojos descended from Tohei sensei, where you walk uke around in a circle. I have also seen ones where nage essentially pivots on their front foot, which creates a much smaller circle. The dojos I have trained at tend to do it the latter way. Either way, there are some very subtle nuances to it, and it will take a lot of practice. Like many things in aikido, this is a really basic element, but it is really difficult to do well.

Good luck!

Robin

phitruong 11-08-2011 08:10 AM

Re: walking in a circle technique??
 
i don't like walking in circle because you can't get anywhere with it. just the other day, my wife yelled at me "i asked you to go get some milk, bread and eggs. why are you still here?" to which i replied, "i am walking in circle and can't seem to get to the store!" wife: "you just sat there and writing drivels on aikiweb! now get to the store or i will circle this frying pan on you!" i tell you, frying-pan-jutsu beat out all circle walking. :D

Janet Rosen 11-08-2011 09:50 AM

Re: walking in a circle technique??
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 296235)
i don't like walking in circle because you can't get anywhere with it. just the other day, my wife yelled at me "i asked you to go get some milk, bread and eggs. why are you still here?" to which i replied, "i am walking in circle and can't seem to get to the store!" wife: "you just sat there and writing drivels on aikiweb! now get to the store or i will circle this frying pan on you!" i tell you, frying-pan-jutsu beat out all circle walking. :D

Next time tell her you will just take a wok :)


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