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Relaxed Aikidoka 09-12-2011 12:11 PM

Being an Uke/Nage
 
What do you do when someone locks up against your technique because they are either in pain or simply resisting on purpose? This is a hypothetical question by the way.

Ketsan 09-12-2011 12:22 PM

Re: Being an Uke/Nage
 
I relax and do the technique anyway since in our dojo we often use locking up as a check to see if we're doing things correctly.If uke can lock tori's technique down it's because they can feel something to fight back against and tori needs to work on that by finding the tension and releasing it.

kewms 09-12-2011 12:44 PM

Re: Being an Uke/Nage
 
It depends.

It's possible that you are doing the technique wrong. Find the problem and fix it.

It's possible that they are being obnoxious and stopping you just to prove they can. In my dojo, the appropriate response would be to do something else, rather than attempting to force the specified technique when it isn't actually there. But training conventions differ -- ask a senior student at your dojo.

If they are injured or in pain, stop. Aikido does not depend on pain compliance. Figure out a non-painful/injurious way to do the technique.

Katherine

Tim Ruijs 09-12-2011 01:38 PM

Re: Being an Uke/Nage
 
I agree with Katherine on this.
...perhaps aite is not fully aware of his part and you will need to explain that.

mathewjgano 09-12-2011 02:32 PM

Re: Being an Uke/Nage
 
Quote:

Adam Frank wrote: (Post 292331)
What do you do when someone locks up against your technique because they are either in pain or simply resisting on purpose? This is a hypothetical question by the way.

I agree with Katherine regarding the issue of pain, and my short answer to them resisting my technique is to find a way of making it work anyway.
My longer answer is that, if they're committing to the attack and not so much better than you that they can just shut you down at will anyway, then I would check the attack sometimes by letting them get me (more so with suppressions than strikes of course). A lot of times it seemed like there was an anticipatory movement (a change of the attack, essentially) which revealed itself when I did this. Also, it usually got aite/uke to commit more purely to the suppression so I could actually deal with it instead of some other movement. Other times, where my ability allowed for it, I would simply adjust to their new attack and finish as much of the sequence as possible.
Different dojos train differently of course, but I remember one of the great teaching/learning tools I had was atemi. If I'm not controling their center and they can begin to make me work too hard for my results, then an elbow would tend to find its way into aite's ribs, or a fist would appear in front of aite's face, or something similar. When uke responded to that I would regain control. In the case of the elbow to the ribs it was a more physically direct way of creating kuzushi. In the case of the fist toward the face it was more of a way of diverting their attention, splitting their power that way...That's my sense of it at any rate.
If I'm still stuck and aite insisted they weren't doing anything wrong, then I would ask sensei to observe us trying (if he hadn't already come over on his own account) and he would correct who ever appeared to need correcting, which would be both parties sometimes.
Overall, my sense is that if uke can resist, I'm not doing the technique right. From the moment of physical contact, nage should physically be in charge. Of course, being a relative beginner, I'm not going to be doing waza quite right anyway, but I remember this understanding served me pretty well and kept me focusing on the real issue which includes learning how to work with what you've got to make what you need/want. Fortunately we mix up who we train with enough that even if I was partnered with someone who tended to resist my efforts and I didn't feel like I was able to learn much, I would eventually get to practice with someone who had high enough skill to show me what I needed to learn. Then the next time I ran into something similar I was more prepared and, appropriately enough, more effective.

Mary Eastland 09-12-2011 02:41 PM

Re: Being an Uke/Nage
 
Is this hypothetical someone very experienced or a beginner?

Abasan 09-12-2011 10:40 PM

Re: Being an Uke/Nage
 
Uke and nage are 'roles' to aid the learning process. Without each other learning Aikido will be near impossible.

Also, uke learns far more than nage from receiving techniques be it poorly executed or well performed. The caveat being he does his job well. In many combat arts you learn from failing to 'win' against your teacher. You pass when the roles are 'reversed' so to speak.

Thus, don't lament your ability as nage, but learn from your uke. And try out what you've learned as an uke. If nage can do those things you can't in a way that's congruent to aikido principles, then there you go.

Personally I'd like to learn where my mistakes are. But this rule applies, resistance appropriate to skill. You won't teach beginners much by locking em out.

Eva Antonia 09-13-2011 02:31 AM

Re: Being an Uke/Nage
 
Dear all,

when someone blocks my technique it's generally because I made an error. If it's someone more experienced than I am he generally explains where was the error. If it's a newbie then he blocks instinctively or by coincidence and I have to find out the reason myself or ask the teacher what it might be. Sometimes I just change the technique and do something else, which usually works thanks to the surprise effect. If uke has conditioned himself to block technique A, he might be completely defenseless when this is turned into technique B.

I never came across someone blocking a technique out of pain. Pain gets worse if you block, so I suppose an uke in pain would loosen his grip instinctively. If it's a newbie, no one would apply whatever painful technique in a way the newbie could damage himself by blocking the technique. (resisting sankyo or such...). At least no one I know...

Best regards,

Eva

robin_jet_alt 09-13-2011 02:47 AM

Re: Being an Uke/Nage
 
Quote:

Eva Röben wrote: (Post 292405)
Dear all,

I never came across someone blocking a technique out of pain. Pain gets worse if you block, so I suppose an uke in pain would loosen his grip instinctively. If it's a newbie, no one would apply whatever painful technique in a way the newbie could damage himself by blocking the technique. (resisting sankyo or such...). At least no one I know...

I have known people to block techniques out of pain, or the apprehension of pain. However, they are only able to block techniques that are applied poorly (as you said, if the technique is done well, then the pain just gets worse), or the person doing the technique deliberately eases off to avoid injuring uke. This can be a big problem with inexperienced ukes as they want you to prove that the technique is effective, but at the same time, you don't want to put them in hospital.

Tim Ruijs 09-13-2011 03:22 AM

Re: Being an Uke/Nage
 
That is my experience too, especially with beginners. Most have no clue where to move to in order to prevent pain. Others accept the pain, because hey we do a martial art and that has got to hurt, right?
It takes effort to get that out of their system first.

And there is the group that likes to test you....always good fun!

Mario Tobias 09-13-2011 05:37 AM

Re: Being an Uke/Nage
 
tricky question.

when you are being blocked, it means that you havn't found the path of least resistance yet nor the moves that will fully control your partner without hurting him.

if you are blocked, stop the technique. do not ever force a technique even if at the end you are successful at throwing your uke. this is mediocre practice and will set you up for bad habits when you get promoted to a more senior level.

try to find out where your uke cannot resist but if that doesn't work, ask your sensei to come over and help.

there needs to be some level of cooperation between nage and uke so they can learn together. aikido is not a contest of strength nor who can throw/resist best. Resistance is perfectly ok but both nage and uke need to suit resistance according to their partners level so that both can learn. This is the unspoken rule which a lot of people do not know and where some people are not sensitive to. As both partners knowledge increases, then resistance/intensity can also increase.

Uke offers resistance to nage so that nage can understand his technique better and understand ukes reaction to what he's doing. You do not offer resistance to nage to test him.

As Endo sensei said, do not think of small goals like throwing uke hard rather practice so that you can understand how yo use your body correctly and its state.

Also I've changed my understanding of aikido these past decades. Aikido is not about nage and the techniques per se but aikido is about uke.

Amir Krause 09-13-2011 09:36 AM

Re: Being an Uke/Nage
 
Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: (Post 292334)
It depends.

It's possible that you are doing the technique wrong. Find the problem and fix it.

It's possible that they are being obnoxious and stopping you just to prove they can. In my dojo, the appropriate response would be to do something else, rather than attempting to force the specified technique when it isn't actually there. But training conventions differ -- ask a senior student at your dojo.

If they are injured or in pain, stop. Aikido does not depend on pain compliance. Figure out a non-painful/injurious way to do the technique.

Katherine

I second this.

You may also wish to look for discussions on issues such as"good uke" "bad uke" and similar - the possible responses vary

Amir


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