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Rabih Shanshiry 07-29-2011 12:00 PM

Aikido is Elbow Power
 
It was referenced in this thread that Ueshiba said "Aikido is Elbow Power."

In Yoshinkan Aikido, two of the six foundational solo exercises are "Elbow Power #1" and "Elbow Power #2" [Hiriki no Yosei ichi & ni].

What IS elbow power?? And why is it so important that Ueshiba would have equated it with Aikido?

jss 07-29-2011 02:49 PM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Are there any references of Ueshiba to elbow power? Or is that just Shioda?

Chris Li 07-29-2011 05:45 PM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Joep Schuurkes wrote: (Post 289030)
Are there any references of Ueshiba to elbow power? Or is that just Shioda?

I believe that it's mentioned in "Budo" as a secret technique with no explanation or photograph. It's also common to hear it referred to, I believe, in Chinese internal martial arts.

Best,

Chris

Janet Rosen 07-29-2011 11:18 PM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 289052)
I believe that it's mentioned in "Budo" as a secret technique with no explanation or photograph. It's also common to hear it referred to, I believe, in Chinese internal martial arts.

Best,

Chris

Dunno about internal arts but anybody who rides the 30-Stockton bus thru Chinatown will testify as to the external proficiency of little old ladies' Elbow Power! Even this Brooklyn budobabe is awed. :-)

lbb 07-30-2011 04:20 AM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
As someone once said to me back in my taekwondo days, "The elbow always wins."

Lee Salzman 07-30-2011 04:38 AM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Rabih Shanshiry wrote: (Post 289012)
It was referenced in this thread that Ueshiba said "Aikido is Elbow Power."

In Yoshinkan Aikido, two of the six foundational solo exercises are "Elbow Power #1" and "Elbow Power #2" [Hiriki no Yosei ichi & ni].

What IS elbow power?? And why is it so important that Ueshiba would have equated it with Aikido?

In this Gozo Shioda interview here, he states:

Quote:

Gozo Shioda wrote:
Yoshinkan Technical Method How was the original teaching method of Yoshinkan Aikido developed? I know that Ueshiba Sensei's techniques were wonderful, but what he did one day was completely different from the day before. Since Ueshiba Sensei did whatever came into his mind, those who were training watched what he was doing without understanding. There were nothing at all like the basics we do today. He would do whatever came to his mind.

But if you try to teach beginners that way, no one will learn. So I thought I had to systematize these techniques when I started teaching at the Nippon Kokan Steel Company. I began to analyze the techniques and develop a teaching system, synthesizing what I had learned up until then. Then I also organized the applications of techniques. I examined the old techniques I had learned.

Did anyone in particular assist you when you were developing your teaching method? When Kyoichi Inoue was a young student I tried out various things directly on him and developed the system. So, for example, I developed things like hiriki no yosei [elbow power development] and also assigned names.

You also assigned names? Yes. I also decided on the names. Maybe you could say they are somewhat arbitrary.

Doesn't really state what it is, but at least it clarifies that as a distinct training principle, it seems to be something Gozo Shioda isolated for the Yoshinkan system.

graham christian 07-30-2011 10:46 AM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
I don't know about it being a basic but it is something you become more aware of and it's usage.

However tnere is a guy who took to it and developed Hiriki Aikido.

You can look it up on google. Here's a vid.

http://youtu.be/SLZnLg13p3Y

Regards.G.

DH 07-30-2011 12:13 PM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 289086)
I don't know about it being a basic but it is something you become more aware of and it's usage.

However tnere is a guy who took to it and developed Hiriki Aikido.

You can look it up on google. Here's a vid.

http://youtu.be/SLZnLg13p3Y

Regards.G.

That ain't it. Graham, you don't even enter the ballpark with this video or your own.
What elbow power actually is, isn't that simple, or crude, it is rather sophisticated and involves whole body use to enhance aiki....
I haven't personally seen it or felt it expressed in aikido....yet.

Dan

graham christian 07-30-2011 12:30 PM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 289090)
That ain't it. Graham, you don't even enter the ballpark with this video or your own.
What elbow power actually is, isn't that simple, or crude, it is rather sophisticated and involves whole body use to enhance aiki....
I haven't personally seen it or felt it expressed in aikido....yet.

Dan

Dan, give me some elbow room please. I didn't say that was it, I pointed out a guy who does what he says is it.

I know the ballpark thanks. Shame you haven't seen it expressed or used in Aikido.

Regards.G.

DH 07-30-2011 12:37 PM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 289093)
Dan, give me some elbow room please. I didn't say that was it, I pointed out a guy who does what he says is it.
I know the ballpark thanks. Shame you haven't seen it expressed or used in Aikido.

Regards.G.

Odd that you say you know yet it doesn't appear anywhere in your movement. It should be in everything you do, all that you do. Since it is not expressed in anything that you do...one would naturally ask why is that?
Dan

graham christian 07-30-2011 12:45 PM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 289094)
Odd that you say you know yet it doesn't appear anywhere in your movement. It should be in everything you do, all that you do. Since it is not expressed in anything that you do...one would naturally ask why is that?
Dan

So elbow power, or your take on it, should be in all my movements?

I find that a very strange thing to say.

I do indeed ask naturally why you can't see what I'm doing. I also ask why is that?

Regards.G.

Adam Huss 07-30-2011 03:22 PM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Elbow power is an idea, a principle and technique praticed in the kihon dosa of the Yoshinkan. It teaches one to use their whole body behind an arm movement, unifying and focusing power. Hiriki no yosei dai ni is the same thing, but adds a shifting movement. While the exact visual representation of elbow power may not be seen in every aikido techniques, the principal behind it can often be pointed out in a variety of movements.

I can't see the video, but there are some good vids of kihon dosa on the 'ole Youtube. Kihon Dosa to Kanren Waza is a great little montage of the kihon dosa coupled with a prac app technique.

DH 07-30-2011 03:33 PM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 289096)
So elbow power, or your take on it, should be in all my movements?
I find that a very strange thing to say.
Regards.G.

It's because you really don't know what it is yet, Graham. That's okay, I'm sure you're having fun, there's no requirement that you do higher level stuff than what you know or are ready for.
All in due time..
Dan

graham christian 07-30-2011 04:22 PM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 289106)
It's because you really don't know what it is yet, Graham. That's okay, I'm sure you're having fun, there's no requirement that you do higher level stuff than what you know or are ready for.
All in due time..
Dan

Harmony is true power. Lest we forget.

Assigning power to a body part I'll leave to you.

Regards.G.

Carsten Möllering 07-31-2011 03:39 AM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 289096)
So elbow power, or your take on it, should be in all my movements?

I think it should. As far as I understood what I heard and read about it - I'm not doing Yoshinkan aikido, only met some people - hiriki is something which is included, or at least should be included always in any style of aikido.
I think it is just that different teachers focus on different terms and different methods of teaching to express and teach their certain understanding or interrests.

To be sure I looked it up again this morning in "Total Aikido" of Shioda Gozo. We don't to his two exercises shown there to be fundamental training methods. But I think, we always practice and train what they want to teach.
Or better what I think they want to teach: Transfering your (breath) power from the tanden (often referred to but not identical with "the hips") into and through your arms.

As a simple, practical advice we often say: "Don't lift your hand with your arm. Let uke have/hold your hand and lift your elbows with your hips (there is a connection). And have some energy just in your fingertips."
There is much more to say and learn about the tanden, the shoulders, especially the legs. All this is involved.

But as far as I understand hiriki is about the whole body being connected and transferring power through the elbows. We have our hands relaxed alway and we very seldom grab uke. So what I understand as elbow power is always part of our aikido.
And working with the sword it simply is what moves the sword. Not the hands, not the shoulders.

graham christian 07-31-2011 06:34 AM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 289133)
I think it should. As far as I understood what I heard and read about it - I'm not doing Yoshinkan aikido, only met some people - hiriki is something which is included, or at least should be included always in any style of aikido.
I think it is just that different teachers focus on different terms and different methods of teaching to express and teach their certain understanding or interrests.

To be sure I looked it up again this morning in "Total Aikido" of Shioda Gozo. We don't to his two exercises shown there to be fundamental training methods. But I think, we always practice and train what they want to teach.
Or better what I think they want to teach: Transfering your (breath) power from the tanden (often referred to but not identical with "the hips") into and through your arms.

As a simple, practical advice we often say: "Don't lift your hand with your arm. Let uke have/hold your hand and lift your elbows with your hips (there is a connection). And have some energy just in your fingertips."
There is much more to say and learn about the tanden, the shoulders, especially the legs. All this is involved.

But as far as I understand hiriki is about the whole body being connected and transferring power through the elbows. We have our hands relaxed alway and we very seldom grab uke. So what I understand as elbow power is always part of our aikido.
And working with the sword it simply is what moves the sword. Not the hands, not the shoulders.

Hi Carsten.
I agree. Not having trained in Yoshinkan I havn't maybe had it as a basic principle as they do but I do understand and use it as you describe. This comes about through two reasons from my training.

1) The continuous use of weight underside.
2) Leading Ki.

Of course people pointing out all the time that it's based on all parts being connected applies to all moves so I don't get the significance there. It should be taught from day one.

There are many aspects to the use of the elbow the most basic being it should not be sticking out except when leading. This as you say is especially important in sword work.

In the early days my teacher would hit the elbow with the bokken every time it wasn't tucked in. As far as cutting goes I think you'll find it's not only the elbow that leads but together with the knee and foot.

For me in tight situations the elbow is merely as if I have a short arm and so is like using tegatana.

Regards.G.

Carsten Möllering 07-31-2011 06:45 AM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Found something on youtube:
Elbow power basic excercises

Lee Salzman 07-31-2011 07:00 AM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 289135)
Found something on youtube:
Elbow power basic excercises

One thing that always strikes me as odd in a lot of videos like this, why does the back leg get dragged around like a heavy piece of carry-on luggage? How does this help with power and mobility?

Anthony Loeppert 07-31-2011 07:50 AM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Lee Salzman wrote: (Post 289136)
One thing that always strikes me as odd in a lot of videos like this, why does the back leg get dragged around like a heavy piece of carry-on luggage? How does this help with power and mobility?

It isn't the luggage it is the engine ( or as least a transmission if I'm getting my Aikido / car analogy right) and anchor (ok so cars don't anchors) at different moments.

First, for power and mobility. As the leg is kept straight the, for lack of a better word, 'slack' is out of the system. So as in all good Aikido, the movement originates at the hips so even a small 'flick' of the hips due to the nature of the leg's connection to the ground translates (extremely efficiently) into force which can be focused, like the way in the exercise show. So what is holding up whatever force you're not supposed to try to lift with your arm? That same straight back leg, you should feel the weight on the arm in the back toes.

What slows you down from a really spirited shuffle and allows the upper posture to remain consistent without making the front knee work hard? Good old, always there straight back leg.

My take on it anyway as a 3 year Yoshinkan practitioner.

Basically always on connection to the ground.

Aikibu 07-31-2011 10:53 AM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 289090)
That ain't it. Graham, you don't even enter the ballpark with this video or your own.
What elbow power actually is, isn't that simple, or crude, it is rather sophisticated and involves whole body use to enhance aiki....
I haven't personally seen it or felt it expressed in aikido....yet.

Dan

While it may not be in the terms of experience you're familiar with Dan. Shoji Nishio emphasized "elbow" power and it is an integral part of our Aikido practice and has been for over 50 years. One of the first things a beginner learns and practices is the elbow kata, which helps them experience and understand that power in techniques "comes from" the elbow. I am sure it's not IP but it is a key component of our practice. :)

William Hazen

Aikibu 07-31-2011 11:03 AM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 289135)
Found something on youtube:
Elbow power basic excercises

From our perspective it's nothing like our elbow kata at all. Our toes are pointed in towards uke, and also in our hanmi our feet are under us, not moving more that a half step always in a circular motion. The movements are smaller and more precise.

William Hazen

DH 07-31-2011 11:37 AM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Quote:

William Hazen wrote: (Post 289141)
While it may not be in the terms of experience you're familiar with Dan. Shoji Nishio emphasized "elbow" power and it is an integral part of our Aikido practice and has been for over 50 years. One of the first things a beginner learns and practices is the elbow kata, which helps them experience and understand that power in techniques "comes from" the elbow. I am sure it's not IP but it is a key component of our practice. :)

William Hazen

Hello William
Good to see you back.
Elbow power is part IP and it is also part aiki. As waza...I am uninterested. That stuff just happened after the fact. So getting all hepped up on waza is not a way I would go to understand IP or aiki. None of the uses mentioned cover all three.It is interesting and enternaining to see some peoples fluid and chameleon like changes in their posistion.
All the best
Dan

Lee Salzman 07-31-2011 11:39 AM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Anthony Loeppert wrote: (Post 289138)
It isn't the luggage it is the engine ( or as least a transmission if I'm getting my Aikido / car analogy right) and anchor (ok so cars don't anchors) at different moments.

First, for power and mobility. As the leg is kept straight the, for lack of a better word, 'slack' is out of the system. So as in all good Aikido, the movement originates at the hips so even a small 'flick' of the hips due to the nature of the leg's connection to the ground translates (extremely efficiently) into force which can be focused, like the way in the exercise show. So what is holding up whatever force you're not supposed to try to lift with your arm? That same straight back leg, you should feel the weight on the arm in the back toes.

What slows you down from a really spirited shuffle and allows the upper posture to remain consistent without making the front knee work hard? Good old, always there straight back leg.

My take on it anyway as a 3 year Yoshinkan practitioner.

Basically always on connection to the ground.

But did this anchoring interpretation come from Gozo Shioda or was this the interpretation of one of Shioda's students? Wouldn't you basically want the engine to never shut off, keep it live, rather than let it sputter off?

JW 07-31-2011 12:17 PM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
I still can't figure out what it means specifically. Everything Carsten said and everything Dan hinted at suggests to me:
elbow power is just another name for the basics of internal strength.

True?
And if true-- we still seem to have different people using the same term to mean non-related things.

Quote:

Lee Salzman wrote: (Post 289144)
Wouldn't you basically want the engine to never shut off, keep it live, rather than let it sputter off?

On this note, I really agree. It sounds more like the use of a parking brake when doing stop-and-go up a hill in a manual transmission than a continual engine engagement. I've watched a lot of Shioda videos and I just don't see him doing that back leg thing. Hey Lee, did you get my email reply to you? Check your spam filter..

Lee Salzman 07-31-2011 12:31 PM

Re: Aikido is Elbow Power
 
Quote:

On this note, I really agree. It sounds more like the use of a parking brake when doing stop-and-go up a hill in a manual transmission than a continual engine engagement. I've watched a lot of Shioda videos and I just don't see him doing that back leg thing.
I don't mean to dispute anyone's direct experience in the Yoshinkan. It's just, yeah, when you look at videos of Shioda, his legs are always moving like live wires, springing and pivoting off the balls of his feet like he was dancing on smoldering lava. I just would like to understand the exercises and why they look so different from how Shioda moves in the end.

Quote:

Hey Lee, did you get my email reply to you? Check your spam filter..
Possibly got lost in the deluge, man. :( See PM.


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