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-   -   Terminology - Kyudansha? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19993)

kyu mg 06-30-2011 09:03 AM

Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
How do I refer to myself as Student....
Is Kyudansha proper..?

ninjaqutie 06-30-2011 02:11 PM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
No idea. Hopefully someone else can answer because all I know are uchideshi and sotodeshi, which are inside and outside students, but I don't know if deshi is a litteral translation for student or not.

Shadowfax 06-30-2011 03:41 PM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
According to Stefan Stenudd's excellent aikido glossary deshi does indeed translate as simply student. From what I was able to dig up using Google kyudansha means a person or group of people wearing a white belt. :)

Janet Rosen 06-30-2011 04:27 PM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
to answer the original question: "student" has always worked for me :-)

ChrisHein 06-30-2011 05:11 PM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
Mudansha is a term I've often heard for those ranked below black belt. I guess it means "mu"="without" and "dansha"= those with rank; people without rank.

Dave de Vos 06-30-2011 05:43 PM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
According to this recent post by Peter Goldsbury, kyudansha means "those with kyu grade or dan rank", which would be all aikidoka except mukyusha, I guess.

Peter Goldsbury 07-01-2011 02:24 AM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
Do you mean in the dojo, or as a member of the dojo? Why do you need to use a Japanese term? Is it some rule of the dojo? Or is that your teacher is Japanese and expects you to use Japanese terms?

There is no general Japanese term for a student of a martial art, only the usual equivalents for students at college or pupils at school. In any case, I think most of my own aikido students, if asked, would say something like, ‘I am a member of X Dojo,’ or ‘I practice aikido at X Dojo.’ I have never heard the word deshi used either, probably because I doubt whether any of them would think of themselves as deshi. I was once asked by telephone of I accepted deshi; I said No.

Best wishes,

Keith Larman 07-01-2011 07:57 AM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 286900)
I have never heard the word deshi used either, probably because I doubt whether any of them would think of themselves as deshi. I was once asked by telephone of I accepted deshi; I said No.

Best wishes,

I have always hesitated to use the word deshi because I have rarely heard it used by those I know who come from a Japanese background (from my experience in martial arts and Japanese crafts). Uchi-deshi is a more specific term although I've heard it used to describe what I'd call an apprentice who didn't live with the teacher. In that case it seemed more about his "status" with the teacher rather than the details about his living conditions. I've heard "soto-deshi" used in a sense that seemed to imply all the students. So I guess what I'm admitting is that I've simply never been clear as to what deshi means in the first place.

Josh Reyer 07-01-2011 09:21 AM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
"Deshi" is commonly used in traditional contexts, and implies one has attached oneself to one particular teacher for instruction. It's not commonly used in modern budo, where people tend to belong to organizations rather than learn at the feet of one particular teacher. It's still used in koryu, by which I mean not just bujutsu but also tea, ikebana, and similar traditional schools where there's a transmission in a lineage. Also in sumo. By far the most common place for regular folks to hear the word "deshi" is in comic-entertainer contexts (owarai). There, it is still common for an aspiring comedian to ask one particular veteran rakugoka or manzai-shi to train them in the art of comedy. They are considered and refer to themselves as "deshi" of that particular veteran.

There is a trend of older words such as "deshi", "monjin" or "monkasei" falling out of use. I was recently on TV during a short segment on our school, and I was captioned as "Amerika-jin seito". "Seito" is a common word to mean "student", but usually used in contexts of, say, jr. and sr. high schools, cram schools, cooking schools, things like that. "Monkasei" or "deshi" would probably have been more appropriate, but there was a certain dumbing down in effect.

Back to the original poster's question, "kyudansha" is a term to describe the general population of students of kyu and dan rank, and not appropriate for describing one person.

Pauliina Lievonen 07-01-2011 09:52 AM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
When I think of the languages that I speak regularly, I can't really think of a context where I would call myself a student of aikido.

In Finnish I'd say something like "Minš harrastan aikidoa" which translates as "I do aikido (as a hobby)".

In Dutch I'd just say "Ik doe aikido" "I do aikido". In English I guess it's more correct English to say I practice aikido in that case?

To call myself a student in one of those two languages would sound like I study it more or less full time in some kind of an institution like a college or something.

Though native Dutch speakers might disagree. Feel free. :)

kvaak
Pauliina

Keith Larman 07-01-2011 10:04 AM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
Quote:

Joshua Reyer wrote: (Post 286935)
"Deshi" is commonly used in traditional contexts, and implies one has attached oneself to one particular teacher for instruction. It's not commonly used in modern budo, where people tend to belong to organizations rather than learn at the feet of one particular teacher. It's still used in koryu, by which I mean not just bujutsu but also tea, ikebana, and similar traditional schools where there's a transmission in a lineage. Also in sumo.

Thanks, Joshua, that clarifies quite a bit and fits well with how I've heard it used in sword crafts (polishers, kinko, smiths, sayashi, etc.) often where there are also issues of lineage (in one sense or another). It usually seemed to be about personal transmission from one to another and not just "I study this or that" in a general sense. Makes sense. Thanks again.

carina reinhardt 07-01-2011 10:29 AM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
In spanish an "estudiante"(student) is for the university, we say "alumno de aikido"(pupil of aikido). In our dojo there are the hakamas(students who wear that clothing) and the non-hakamas(the others).

Chuck Clark 07-01-2011 11:28 PM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
I've heard "shoshinsha" and "nyumonsha", both used I think as terms for students with a particular state of "open mind/willingness to learn", etc. My teacher, when I was 10-14 years of age, referred to me as "monjin"... I never really knew what it meant until years later.

I suspect that the best word is whatever is appropriate for the language that you speak while you're practicing. When I first got to France, I was sort of dumbfounded when they asked me if I had a "kimono" for practice and very few people used Japanese names for waza. They used numbers instead. Most importantly, I understood immediately what they were talking about when going for beer after practice. :-)

Best regards,

Peter Goldsbury 07-02-2011 12:41 AM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
Quote:

Chuck Clark wrote: (Post 286992)
I've heard "shoshinsha" and "nyumonsha", both used I think as terms for students with a particular state of "open mind/willingness to learn", etc. My teacher, when I was 10-14 years of age, referred to me as "monjin"... I never really knew what it meant until years later.

I suspect that the best word is whatever is appropriate for the language that you speak while you're practicing. When I first got to France, I was sort of dumbfounded when they asked me if I had a "kimono" for practice and very few people used Japanese names for waza. They used numbers instead. Most importantly, I understood immediately what they were talking about when going for beer after practice. :-)

Best regards,

Hello Chuck,

FWIW (and totally off topic),

1. The 初心者マーク (shoshinsha mark) is the yellow and green symbol which has to be attached to the rear of a car when it is being driven by someone who has just passed a driving test. People give these drivers a wide birth.

2. 入門 nyuumon) also refers to textbooks that give an introduction to a subject.


Hello Keith (slightly less off-topic, not being directly relevant to the OP's question),

The Japanese meaning of deshi expands/amplifies Josh's comment:

弟子(弟や子のように師に従う者の意)師に従って教えを受ける人。
Deshi (ototo ya ko no youni shi ni shitagau mono no i) shi ni shitagatte oshie wo ukeru hito.
Deshi (meaning someone who accepts / obeys the teacher like a younger brother or child [accepts and obeys the teaching of the father]): a person who accepts / obeys the teaching of the teacher.

The definition does not touch on the distinctions between 内弟子 uchi (live-in) deshi; 外弟子 soto-deshi, living outside the teacher's house; and 通い弟子 kayoi (commuting) deshi, like Katsuaki Asai, who lived just across the street from the Hombu and so lived at home.
There is also a nuance to 師 shi, that is conveyed by the compounds in which it is used, 師範 shihan, being one of very many (the compounds relevant to you being 研ぎ師 togishi: polisher of swords, or 打ち物師 uchimonoshi: swordmaker).

There are several major assumptions behind this Kojien definition, and the terms used, that are relevant to Morihei Ueshiba.

The first is that the teacher possesses a body of knowledge and skill that is available only by following a certain method. You can acquire the knowledge only by becoming a deshi and going through the process of learning it in the way exemplified by the teacher.
The second is that it is assumed that the person who possesses the knowledge--and has become famous enough to be asked to have deshi, can actually teach them the knowledge / skill possessed.
The third is that it makes very little sense to ask whether the teacher is a good teacher or not, whether he has a good teaching methodology, or follows a syllabus.
The fourth is that it is the teacher who decides or not whether to accept deshi and, further, whether to teach all the knowledge / skill or only a portion.

Finally, the comment made to me by the late Kisshomaru Ueshiba (well after the death of his father), that he himself never had uchi-deshi, makes a whole lot of sense.

Best wishes,

PAG

Josh Reyer 07-02-2011 07:45 AM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
Quote:

Keith Larman wrote: (Post 286939)
Thanks, Joshua, that clarifies quite a bit and fits well with how I've heard it used in sword crafts (polishers, kinko, smiths, sayashi, etc.) often where there are also issues of lineage (in one sense or another). It usually seemed to be about personal transmission from one to another and not just "I study this or that" in a general sense. Makes sense. Thanks again.

Right. I probably should have mentioned this in my previous post, but while "deshi" and "monkasei", etc., mean "student", they are only used in describing one's relationship with one's teacher.

One could say, "I'm a deshi of XX-sensei." One could not say, "I'm a deshi of aikido."

niall 07-03-2011 09:46 AM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
Quote:

Dave de Vos wrote: (Post 286866)
According to this recent post by Peter Goldsbury, kyudansha means those with kyu grade or dan rank.

As an aside kyudansha is rarely used. Yudansha is very common. At the Kodokan in Tokyo I think the changing rooms are classified as kodansha 高段者 high dan grade holders, yudansha 有段者 dan grade holders and ippan 一般 ordinary - as a Japanese friend of mine used to say, ippan people. Women have just one changing room.

ChrisHein 07-03-2011 11:08 AM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
Sounds like "deshi" translates quite well as "disciple" in English.

Shannon Frye 07-03-2011 12:51 PM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
I agree with Chris. When I hear "deshi", to me it carries connotations of being a 'disciple', implying more than just being a student. It carries more of a 'devotional' undertone.

I've heard mudansha used, meaning 'those without', meaning those without dan ranking. In my current dojo, they use the term "kyudansha", meaning all those below dan ranking (yudansha).

If you speak english - when in doubt, say it in english. It'll prevent misunderstandings.

Josh Reyer 07-03-2011 09:30 PM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
I'd say that "disciple" could be rendered as "deshi" in Japanese (and it is; Jesus' disciples are referred to as his "deshi"), but "deshi" doesn't always mean disciple. It also has senses of "pupil" or "apprentice", without devotional nuance. Well, check that; it depends on how you define "devotional".

"Mudansha" literally means "without-dan rank-person/people". "Yudansha", conversely, means "with-dan rank-person/people". "Kyudansha" means "kyu and dan rank people", so if your dojo is using it to refer to only people below dan rank, they are using it wrong.

Shannon Frye 07-03-2011 10:54 PM

Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?
 
Quote:

Joshua Reyer wrote: (Post 287066)
"Kyudansha" means "kyu and dan rank people", so if your dojo is using it to refer to only people below dan rank, they are using it wrong.

You are correct. I meant to say "yuukyuusha", not kyudansha. Thanks for catching my mistake.

Here's a relevent thread where Mr. Goldsbury defined several of the terms and their meanings.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19914


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