AikiWeb Aikido Forums - Judo and IP/IS

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With all the talk about IP/IS, does Judo use it?

I haven't seen it discusses yet.

Re: Judo and IP/IS

AFAIK, one person within judo did "have it," and applied it to HIS judo.
You might enjoy the clips and commentary here:
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.p...st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Tim Jester wrote: (Post 286413)

With all the talk about IP/IS, does Judo use it?

I haven't seen it discusses yet.

Why would you - on an Aikido forum?

Simsalabim! Click here

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Tim Jester wrote: (Post 286413)

With all the talk about IP/IS, does Judo use it?

I haven't seen it discusses yet.

it's in the Go No Kata, but not the way they currently do it in judo. in the same vein to karate with Sanchin Kata in some karate branches.

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 286430)

Why would you - on an Aikido forum?

Well Bob, because this was posted in the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions Forum. ;)

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 286434)

it's in the Go No Kata, but not the way they currently do it in judo. in the same vein to karate with Sanchin Kata in some karate branches.

Thanks Phi, is this your first post without humor?? :D

I wonder if there's a video of Mifune doing it. I'll check around.

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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Tim Jester wrote: (Post 286413)

With all the talk about IP/IS, does Judo use it?

I haven't seen it discusses yet.

From Aikido Shugyo (p.76) by Gozo Shioda:

Quote:

Another important point is that kokyu power is not limited to Aikido alone. Originally, it was certainly a part of all Japanese martial arts. While it was referred to by different names, Judo, Karate or any of the various other martial arts all had ways of practising kokyu power. But somewhere along the line it fell into disuse. I believe that therein lies the decline of Japanese martial arts.

Mike Sigman

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 286415)

AFAIK, one person within judo did "have it," and applied it to HIS judo.
You might enjoy the clips and commentary here:
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.p...st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Can any of the claims that Bodywork made be substantiated? They sound more like the tall tales of Paul Bunyan. :blush:

That Mifune clip is really nice! Here's another one showing a self defense kata: http://youtu.be/qoI1edDisMM

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Re: Judo and IP/IS

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Tim Jester wrote: (Post 286443)

Well Bob, because this was posted in the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions Forum. ;)

Well, here the thing, Tim. If people within Judo are (by and large) dis-interested / not knowledgeable on the topic (bear in mind some of these folks have senior dan ranks and many years in service) what chance do you think there is for informed discussion about judo by non judoka on a niche sub-forum?

For example, you have a reference and assurance to look towards Mifune. Yet, we have no evidence one way or another (the video linked to doesn't really show anything conclusive) of Mifune's IS skills.

It's my opinion that there's is a certain hallowed awe over Mifune. That's all well and good, but let's not take veneration as a substitute for proof. To date, I've seen no evidence of Mifune demonstrating the tell-tale manifestations of IS.

However, here are some interesting tidbits that fall within that realm

Quote:

You were talking the other day about the ki, chi, that kind of thing. I'd like to know what you think about that.

Ki and chi are the same thing. You better, about ki and chi, ask Chinese people or other Asian people. Because they talk about ki and chi. I can tell you only that Koizumi, when he wanted to talk about it, there was an international congress of Judo black belts in London and I was one of them. There were about 500 there. And we had a special course conducted by Koizumi. And then in the middle of the course, on the fifth day, suddenly he says, “Now I am going to talk to you about the most important principle in Judo training, about the saika-tanden.” Some people call it tantien, the seat of chi, ki, or whatever you like, but it's the saika-tanden in Japanese. “But Feldenkrais come here,” and he said to the whole assemblage, “I believe he will talk to you about the saika-tanden more sensibly and in a way in which you'll understand. It is something which I feel and know, but which I cannot explain.” And then he let me explain that for the people there. And he wrote the preface to my book. The thing is this, when you talk of such matters in my way, nobody will take it for ki and chi or anything you like. You see, most people talk about that as if it's a mysterious kind of thing in the lower abdomen with all sorts of metaphysical meanings and powers. I have no connection with that. And therefore, my way of thinking is actually a useless thing to such people. If you challenge them on that they'll say, “Ah, what does he know? He is only a scientist.”

[I]But this is only a semantic difference, isn't it?
[/i]

Oh, no. A semantic difference? No. Ghosts are a semantic difference? Ghosts are something which if you believe in and you are afraid of a ghost, you are afraid of a ghost You will never go into a haunted house.

Yes, but you must know … It's not semantic, but you must know from your practice something, the importance of this, what they call in the language, tanden.

Of course, I know. And their description of it, while it may be … My description of it is only in movement, I am not concerned with any of the other things.

But does it not come to the same thing?

No, it doesn't because, you see, in the one, if you say you've got chi, many people would try to be like you and do like you, and if they fail will say, “Oh, I could never get chi.” To get chi, you have to possess moral courage, you have to be connected with the higher spheres of things. Therefore, you find that this is an impediment in the learning. (To a questioner) Have you chi?

I could not say that.

Oh, therefore, if you can't say it, that's what I'm talking about. You can work 20 years and you don't show it. You're not sure if you have it or you don't. Because if it's a mysterious quantity, then you must deserve it, you must be a part of an elite group, or you must be born in China. How will you get chi if it's a metaphysical thing that nobody knows what it is? Well, it's a quality like psychic healing, if you're a healer, you're a healer. If you don't heal, you are not. Now, chi is the same thing. Either you've got it or you ain't got it. If you've got it, you've got it. If you ain't got it, you ain't got it (Laughter) It's almost like EST.

But what you're talking about is different.

Yes. I told you. In movement, I can show you what chi is, what ki is, on you or anybody else. Can you see that my notions on breathing are different from anything you heard before and you will ever hear? You can see it, you can test it, on yourself, and there is a marked difference between the one and the other, provided that you can make the contrast.

Okay, for example, in martial arts training, in Aikido, where they have the notion of the unbendable arm or they talk about focusing somewhere, like a couple of inches below the navel and a couple of inches inside the lower abdomen, and then having your weight underside and not being stiff, but not relaxed, but having your attention …

Well, I don't know that it's a few inches here and a few inches there. It has to do with the full organization of your body, you can see it in whatever you do. You actually get chi through using the pelvis and the lower abdominal muscles, the strong muscles of the body as a unit concentrated from where all push or pull is issued. The rest of the body and the arms needn't be powerful. It is not a muscle, it is not a point. It has nothing to do with this point, because if it were a point … Look, if you move your body like that, the point is gone (makes a move to demonstrate, a shift in the center of gravity to outside the body). A point a few inches there, a few inches here, if you go there, you will find that it is full of shit, literally. (Laughter) That point is full of shit. And this is the point of chi.

So, will you teach us this organization?

What do you want it for? You don't want to fight. You don't. What do you want?

Is it used only in fighting or is it a whole organization that is serving you in any other action?

Oh, of course, it serves me. I believe a dancer is not a dancer without that reorganization. That is why most dancers are half-cooked dancers.

Why would we go through life without it?

You wouldn't know it. And nobody would do the amount of work that is necessary to get it because they will have to change their dancing.

But people like us can learn it?

I am teaching you whether you want it or not. The improvement in your movement that you get moving the head free so that the pelvis can produce the necessary power, that's ki. What did Kano do? That's all. He stands there, you can't push him. If he wants to push you, you go wherever he wants. So the mysterious development of chi is efficient use of the equipment that everybody has. It is that question which needs, in order to understand it, a tremendous amount of knowledge.

And as usual, it's easier to teach people without teaching understanding, by saying, look, this is it, imitate me. Look, I stand here unmovable. You can't move me. Now push me, you can't push me. If I push you, you move.

Now and then they have you send the chi down to the ground and bring it back up, each way. It is a marvelous technique. But you know in a way, it's interesting that they teach that way because, if the motor cortex is responsible for directing the organization of the body, then to tell someone to send their energy down would cause them to organize their body differently and so their weight would be more difficult to move.

But, if you say you send your energy … how do you send energy here or there, show me any instance where you can send energy anywhere. In our work we can do something with awareness and without awareness, something just purely done in a mechanical fashion and we can also pay attention to making some movement. So I see the concept of ki and chi as an incredible impediment to learning and I see people in classes, Aikido and Kung Fu and whatever, and it's just a struggle. They can never get it. They never get it because the idea of chi or ki is preposterous. How can you get it if it's a point in your stomach? What would you do with such a point? What can you do with it? What change will it make to you? Now, it sounds a mysterious kind of super power that you get from somewhere in the point in your stomach, and that point described properly, is the duodenum lying there and is literally full of shit.

Your teacher, and Kano, were trained with that notion in a cultural matrix that allowed them to not view it all so mysteriously.

Oh, certainly. And Kano, when he had already a school where most of people could beat anybody in Japan, he brought a boy that was 14 years old into the dojo and none of those big experts could throw him because that boy had a natural what they called tai-sabaki, meaning hips moving away. You could never break his balance, he always slid away, whatever you did to him, like a cat. Balance. He was always coming back on his feet, whatever you did to him. And most people couldn't get a grip on him, if you pulled him he was with you, but you could never make his pelvis go outside the feet, whatever you did, and they were very peeved. They said, look, Judo is no good. He said, you are no good. This chap will be here until you learn to do like he does, or learn how to fight that sort of thing. Only then will you have a better saika-tanden than he. He is better than any one of you, therefore you have to learn

There are other articles I could cite here, too, but if you really understand the topic of IS, then you'll understand why this passage is particularly illustrative of early judo.

Of course, I'm not sure aikiweb is the right place to have these kinds of discussion, at least to any productive end :D

By the way, you can a good clip of Go-No-kata by searching DailyMotion; I invite you to analyse it and start discussion thereon if you are really interested in this topic (beyond just chewing the fat). You never know who could come out of the wood work...

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 286453)

what chance do you think there is for informed discussion about judo by non judoka on a niche sub-forum?

It's a shot in the dark but you never know what will stick to the wall! You posted and it seems you have some Judo background.

I have no clue what the IP/IS thing is about and when it comes to Aikido but I wanted to see how it applies or doesn't apply to other arts.

Since the Aikido I study is based on Judo principals , I'd like to try that avenue to see what people have to say about it.

Thanks for the info.

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Tim Jester wrote: (Post 286457)

It's a shot in the dark but you never know what will stick to the wall! You posted and it seems you have some Judo background.

Well, sure. Those of us interested in the topic of IS frequent this place from time to time; there's useful (and not so useful) info archived here.

Quote:

I have no clue what the IP/IS thing is about and when it comes to Aikido but I wanted to see how it applies or doesn't apply to other arts.

Sure. I think the application to upright grappling pretty interesting myself

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 286453)

There are other articles I could cite here, too, but if you really understand the topic of IS, then you'll understand why this passage is particularly illustrative of early judo.

Wow, the article you cited was great.
Could you share more?

Pat

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Pat Togher wrote: (Post 286460)

Wow, the article you cited was great.
Could you share more?

Pat

I believe it came from Moshe Feldenkrais:
http://exp22.blogspot.com/2008/04/blog-post.html

other links I found interesting:
http://judoinfo.com/feldenkrais.htm
http://judoinfo.com/tomiki.htm

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Pat Togher wrote: (Post 286460)

Wow, the article you cited was great.
Could you share more?

Pat

Well, here's one I just cited elsewhere today -

From Trevor Leggett

Quote:

Stylization
Look at Figure 3. Here the man is extending his arm, which he takes round in a big circle, finally forming the hand into a fist and directing it at the opponent. This is the first move of one of the Junokata sequences. The preliminary action is, of course, quite artificial and would never precede any real blow. There are a number of such moves in Junokata, and some people wonder why they are there.

One purpose is to train what is called Nai-ki, or 'inner energy'. When making the big circle of the arm, draw in the breath and feel the energy running right down to the extended finger-tips till they tingle with it. Perhaps our present physiology has no satisfactory explanation as yet, but it is a fact that students who practice these methods do display exceptional energy and fine coordination even into old age. The subject deserves further investigation, but meantime the practice is there to be taken advantage of.

I believe there's an article by Steve Cunningham that discusses the role of these mechanics in judo, though I don't have a cite handy; I know he goes into some related material in his video series "Core Throwing Techniques of Kodokan Judo (Dai-ikkyo)".

http://www.usja-judo.org/judotape.htm

Of course, there's more to it then this, but I've always appreciated that Steve Cunningham is willing to think and investigate

EDIT: That original article comes by way of Feldenkrais, however if you read it, it's not about Feldenkrais, per se. I don't think you'll find much directly in what your after looking for within Moshe's written works (at least in this respect): in general, his books are not so explicative. However, given the above interview, it's very likely he knew about the topic at hand (and within a judo context), Given the identity of Feldenkrais' primary Judo teacher - and his background - I think some pretty interesting hypotheses could be suggested.

However, if it's all the same, I'd prefer not to get into historical minutae like this on aikiweb: I think it would serve us all much better to discuss and analyse concrete physical examples etc. Assuming of course were not just shooting the breeze and gawking at Mifune :)

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Tim Jester wrote: (Post 286451)

Can any of the claims that Bodywork made be substantiated? They sound more like the tall tales of Paul Bunyan. :blush:
-

Nice. I appreciate the insult.
I don't tell tales. As for my statements; they have been vetted and substantiated many times, to include a whole lot of people here. And not only with judo-ka but with guys with established fight records who can deliver a hell of a lot more pressure than judo-ka do.
Look, I both taught and defended the notion of this "improbable aiki nonsense" INSIDE of Judo/MMA dojos as well as with ICMA teachers who I was told by supposedly informed people were miles ahead of me. I don't really care to be the flavor of the day or the fastest draw in the west. No one is undefeatable, there is always someone better. But after what I have now felt or other times "seen" of who I have wasted years debating, you'll have to pardon me if I am not interested in debating about the Chinese method over the Japanese method, or the Western over Eastern.
On the net, tempers flare and people get protective of systems, ranks and beliefs. I know what IP/aiki can deliver and offer to people, and in person these internet debates usually always end nicely and in people wanting to train it.
See ya
Dan

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 286470)

I am not interested in debating about the Chinese method over the Japanese method, or the Western over Eastern.

See ya
Dan

I'm quite fond of the Spencer, Mass. method myself.

Big Fan :)

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Howard Popkin wrote: (Post 286473)

I'm quite fond of the Spencer, Mass. method myself.

Big Fan :)

Really, it is interesting to see how cavalier people can be with their comments from behind a keyboard, compared to how nice it usually turns out person. Here, I'm a con man, snake oil salesman, liar, and scam artist. Why bother?
Cheers
Dan

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 286470)

Nice. I appreciate the insult.

Didn't know it was you but reading it gave me the feeling of reading about superman. With claims like this it's good to say where the info was found. My Grandfather once told me "Believe none of what you read and only half of what you see".

No offense to you but I take the "trust me I was told by someone but won't mention names" stories with a grain of salt.

As far as the Mifune video, what I see Mifune do in that video clip at 1:55 is to hit the line perpendicular to his opponent's feet with a Sacrifice Throw. That line of off balance is a basic Judo principal. I saw nothing to show otherwise. Great timing and execution! The Hiza Guruma he does at the end is nice!

http://youtu.be/uFXbuszijCM

I'm not debating what you see since I don't understand what you are teaching so could you explain what you are seeing in the video and how Mifune's throw would differs from the average Judoka?

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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Tim Jester wrote: (Post 286475)

1. Didn't know it was you but reading it gave me the feeling of reading about superman. With claims like this it's good to say where the info was found. My Grandfather once told me "Believe none of what you read and only half of what you see".

No offense to you but I take the "trust me I was told by someone but won't mention names" stories with a grain of salt.
I'm not debating what you see since I don't understand what you are teaching so could you explain what you are seeing in the video and how Mifune's throw would differs from the average Judoka?
-

You just said it was pointless. Stick with your grandfather. Lets see, reading...no good, seeing no good...Did he tell you what to do when you keep landing on your ass?
Dan

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 286476)

You just said it was pointless. Stick with your grandfather. Lets see, reading...no good, seeing no good...Did he tell you what to do when you keep landing on your ass?
Dan

:rolleyes:

Re: Judo and IP/IS

If you mean a 2nd 3rd or 4th hand story of an event that may or may not have happened over 80 years ago then yes, pointless.

Better to have a first hand account to try and understand what you see in the Judo video to get a better insight to what you are espousing.

-

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Tim Jester wrote: (Post 286479)

Hey I'm not espousing anything. And you can't go by first hand accounts no matter how experienced they are....ask people here. Your Grandfather says it's all a scam, don't believe anything.

Think of it...I mean, seriously...what are the odds that these Asians know anything that sport science and you ...haven't figured out already right?
Mifune's just a combination of those guys not trying real hard and good technique.
Cardio, core training, kettle bells, (it will help you rip them over in Seoi nage) and you'll be just fine.
Cheers!
Dan

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Of course, I'm not sure aikiweb is the right place to have these kinds of discussion, at least to any productive end :D

Quote:

By the way, you can a good clip of Go-No-kata by searching DailyMotion; I invite you to analyse it and start discussion thereon if you are really interested in this topic (beyond just chewing the fat).

Q.E.D

:dead:

Oh well. Maybe in another life.

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 286487)

Q.E.D
Oh well. Maybe in another life.

Daily Motion was blocked by our firewall at work. Just saw this version now. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6t...dokan_creation

Very interesting. Some of it looks like modern judo competition! :D

There's also some clean footage of some of the Koshiki no Kata.

Anyway, this topic can be officially closed.

-

Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:

"......if you go there, you will find that it is full of shit, literally. (Laughter) That point is full of shit. And this is the point of (ki)chi."

Quote:

"They never get it because the idea of chi or ki is preposterous. How can you get it if it's a point in your stomach?.... Now, it sounds a mysterious kind of super power that you get from somewhere in the point in your stomach, and that point described properly, is the duodenum lying there and is literally full of shit."

Ya. Really informed and useful opinions there from whatever source. :rolleyes:
As useful as you then you telling us "Don't believe anything you read, and only half of what you hear."
Great conversation starter.
Good bye now.
Dan