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Siteofthor 06-16-2011 11:41 PM

Aikido wrist catching?
 
Is it possible or with time can an aikidoka actually catch a persons wrist in the moment with a resisting atacker? I am currently doing some aikido and judo atm trying to decide which one to stick with. I am not a troll, I know this is a hot topic. Aikido we have resistance and randori but in real life people dont wear judogis and its taking a toll on my body already. With aikido I am worried.i can catch a wrist or do a move in the moment. Advice? Ty. Site

L. Camejo 06-16-2011 11:57 PM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
Imho you should not aim to "catch" the wrist or sleeve so it doesn't matter if the person is wearing a Judogi or not.

What you are looking for is an intercepting movement where you use tai sabaki to get out of the way of a fast strike, use tegatana to make soft contact and then take a grip at the most opportune point to effect kuzushi for your technique (which is often where the arm is moving the slowest and/or is furthest away from the torso).

Imho the idea of whether it is possible is not a question - if you train muscle memory by using the right drills it becomes just another acquired skill. If you Google Shodokan tanto randori I'm sure you will find video clips around the concept.

Best regards

LC

Siteofthor 06-16-2011 11:58 PM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
I mean to say in judo we have resistance...

gates 06-17-2011 12:06 AM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
Hi Jon,
(Disclaimer: I am still a beginner)

"With aikido I am worried.i can catch a wrist or do a move in the moment"

Do you mean "Can't"?

You are right the practicality of Aikido is often a cause for debate.

I would assume that as you are interested in the effectiveness of the wrist locks at speed that your primary objective for training is self defense?

You should understand that in Aikido (or any MA) the application of a specific technique in a martial encounter is entirely governed by the specific parameters held in an instant. In 'attempting' to administer a wrist lock I'd suggest that you will be met with resistance and it will be difficult to apply. If however you can naturally apply the principles inherent in Aikido then it will be of benefit. Any argument of this technique, in this or that situation is utterly futile.

By staying mentally and physically calm and relaxed we can feel our opponents intention and move accordingly to a position of mutual safety.

My advice is rather than considering the effectiveness of the MA first consider your motivations for wanting to learn it (if you haven't already that it is) shop around to find a good teacher in a style that suits your personal requirements.
Keith

dps 06-17-2011 12:27 AM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
Catching wrist in midair is very difficult and in a real fight virtually impossible.

I would instead reccommend intercepting the arm with edge of your hand ( hand blade or tegatana) and sliding down the arm to capture the wrist.

dps

dps 06-17-2011 12:39 AM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
Quote:

Larry Camejo wrote: (Post 285837)
Imho you should not aim to "catch" the wrist or sleeve so it doesn't matter if the person is wearing a Judogi or not.

What you are looking for is an intercepting movement where you use tai sabaki to get out of the way of a fast strike, use tegatana to make soft contact and then take a grip at the most opportune point to effect kuzushi for your technique (which is often where the arm is moving the slowest and/or is furthest away from the torso).

A better response than mine.

Catching the hand is a fine motor skill and harder to accomplish where using the tegatana and tai sabaki are gross motor skills and easier.

dps

lbb 06-17-2011 06:48 AM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
Quote:

Jon Frashier wrote: (Post 285835)
Is it possible or with time can an aikidoka actually catch a persons wrist in the moment with a resisting atacker?

Yes, and it's also possible to actually blend with a sword so effectively that you can catch it between your palms and not get cut. Or so they say. But what's the point? Even if it can be done, it's still just a parlor trick, not a skill with practical value. Is that what you want, to learn parlor tricks?

Michael Hackett 06-17-2011 03:35 PM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
The television show "Mythbusters" investigated and tested the story of catching a live blade between the palms. They used robotic arms and ballistic gel hands for their experiments and with all sort of trick electronic devices and switches, they were unable to do it. They visited a San Francisco area Ninjutsu instructor who demonstrated the catch with one of his students. As I watched the human demonstration it appeared to me (cynic that I am) that the student wasn't delivering a killing blow that would split the body, but rather making a very controlled shomenuchi cut that stopped at the point where the palms would meet the blade. As I recall, they labeled the myth as "plausible", but very unlikely to actually happen. My view is that it was a terrific parlor trick that requires two people to have precise timing and a lot of time on their hands, along with an iaito.

Patrick Hutchinson 06-17-2011 03:41 PM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
Which inspired me to write a Ninja Swordcatchers trilogy for my boys:
Volume One: Five Fingers of Doom
Volume Two: Four fingers of Doom
Volume Three: Three Fingers etc etc

jlbrewer 06-17-2011 06:50 PM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
Quote:

Michael Hackett wrote: (Post 285932)
The television show "Mythbusters" investigated and tested the story of catching a live blade between the palms. They used robotic arms and ballistic gel hands for their experiments and with all sort of trick electronic devices and switches, they were unable to do it. They visited a San Francisco area Ninjutsu instructor who demonstrated the catch with one of his students. As I watched the human demonstration it appeared to me (cynic that I am) that the student wasn't delivering a killing blow that would split the body, but rather making a very controlled shomenuchi cut that stopped at the point where the palms would meet the blade. As I recall, they labeled the myth as "plausible", but very unlikely to actually happen.

Nope, they called it busted for a bare-handed between the palms catch. The Ninjitsu instructor demonstrated that the "correct" technique involved stepping out of the way and doing the actual blade catching (more of a block) with a hand protected by metal climbing claws like these.

Michael Hackett 06-17-2011 08:13 PM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
You're probably right Jamie, and they busted the myth. I don't recall anything being said about getting off the line, but he was wearing those climbing mitts. I still don't think they were using a live blade in the human demonstration though. I do know one thing for sure.....it ain't a technique I'm gonna try anytime soon although I know that I can stop a shomenuchi strike from any swordsman - with my pelvis as he cuts through to there.

Siteofthor 06-17-2011 08:19 PM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
Thanks everyone for the advice. Yes I meant that I "can't", and Yes I am looking into Self-Defense. Lately I have been feeling that Judo is more realistic in terms of defense but I feel as I said like it is hard on my body and I don't want to have to worry about injuries and being out of work at any juncture. I have always been interested in Aikido because I am not a fighter, or an attacker, and it feels like it would be a good match for me in terms of my personality and I like the idea of being able to relax and it calming me, as I'm pretty stressed frequently. I'm just worried about its practicality in terms of self-defense in the real world. I've gone to aikidofaqs and read some of the stories there but everything I'm reading sounds great but I don't want to have to wait years until I can use any of this stuff and as I said I'm worried about the art as it relies alot on wrist locks. I definitely appreciate everyone's info and help and advice and I'm definitely taking it to heart.

Jon

jeremymcmillan 06-17-2011 09:18 PM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
OK, I'm a beginner, but what I'm about to say is my attempt to paraphrase a LOT of coaching I've received from a LOT of people, while not consistently applied yet I have been able to absorb and demonstrate at least occasionally. I'm getting better.

Let's stop calling it "wrist catching" and maybe for just a few moments call it "wrist interception." It's useful because the argument is that speed of movement makes "interception" of an attackers wrist difficult.

There are two concepts that need to be pondered in order to understand connecting a wrist lock with a determined attacker. First is that while the target of a particular technique (like munetsuki kotegaesh), is the wrist, Aikido techniques are not like shooting at an incoming target. That's the "Patriot Missile Defense" intercept trajectory, and it doesn't work. The best way to shoot down a missile is to launch the interceptor from as close to the launch site as possible (irimi taisabaki), at as close to the same time that the attack is launched as possible (sensen no sen), in a very similar trajectory (tenkan taisabaki).

The next concept to ponder is that once a certain level of mastery is attained, jiyu waza becomes more natural in that one doesn't go for a particular technique: nage just does Aiki movements to maintain freedom in harmony with uke's attack, and at some point nage will be in a position to easily execute a technique and uke will be in a position to just take it. So the small target of the wrist becomes a large target of uke's overall movement.

Once you get there, you have to take whatever Uke's given you for a "fat and slow" target. Just get in there and take uke's balance blending your interception from uke's upper arm down to uke's forearm, and then uke's attacking hand gets slow. Getting the kotegaesh from there is just the Tekubi Kosa Undo movement: your hands come together, and uke's hand is in between them, right at at your hara.

Oh.. one more thing: you can be a lot faster than you think if you're not slowed down by thinking. If you need to think to get the movements right, do it at the speed to get the movements right. When moving right at that speed feels "boring" then you know the distractable part of your brain is no longer necessary, you can do the movements smoothly from motor memory at whatever speed uke moves. That's not supposed to be a third concept: you have to forget the two concepts (after you've internalized them).

Michael Hackett 06-17-2011 09:40 PM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
Jon,
If self defense is your real goal, almost any of the martial arts will help you defend yourself and each has its merits and limitations. With hard study you will learn to defend yourself and others. If SD is your goal, be sure that the school provides you with the associated training to teach you when it is lawful and justified to use your "five fingered palm of death" and when it isn't. The "how" part of the SD equation is the easy part and the "when", "why" and "how much" are critically important. Someone may chime in with the old "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6" argument and I even agree to some extent. But the ramifications of using your skills improperly have life-long consequences. Just be aware.

jlbrewer 06-17-2011 09:42 PM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
Quote:

Michael Hackett wrote: (Post 285948)
I still don't think they were using a live blade in the human demonstration though.

Correct. (I dug up the clip on youtube to check). The narrator reassured the audience that the blade was dulled.

lbb 06-17-2011 09:44 PM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
I see that everyone, without exception, completely missed the point of the "catching the sword" example...

If self-defense is your goal, you are best served by developing good situational awareness, staying out of trouble and keeping your nose clean, not fantasizing about what martial art will best enable you to catch the fist of some hypothetical attacker.

If you enjoy training, then train. If you don't, don't. You don't have to justify your decision of how you spend your leisure time with some convoluted argument about the utility of the skill you're learning.

gates 06-17-2011 10:29 PM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
Jon,
Do you often find yourself in dangerous situations, or live in a bad part of town? Or have a dangerous job?
In a country with a horrible gun culture staying alert is, as Mary stated, by far and away your first line of, and perhaps most critical form of self defense.

Also you have stated that you are worried about: losing your job due to injury that hasn't happened, also feeling generally worried and stressed and also worried about the real world effectiveness of a martial art that you don't practice, and also that it will take too long to get any good.

The overriding sense that I get is that you are generally quite stressed and worried about a number of things including your own personal safety, hence the interest in Aikido and Judo.

I don't know the stats but I'd be pretty confident that stress related illness kills more people than fleet fisted bad guys, or even guns or car crashes.

So if self preservation is your priority then perhaps this is something worth considering.

Your friend in Aiki
Keith

Janet Rosen 06-17-2011 11:44 PM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
To the OP : it sounds like besides self defense you are interested in something kinder to your body or less likely to cause injury than judo. Well I've never done judo but within aikido some dojos have low injury rates and some high injury rates - I'm not talking about minor ouches that are annoying but injuries that result in time lost from training. When I did my knee injuries survey there was no one style of aikido associated with more or less injuries and there's nothing in particular I can tell you to look for and avoid. Just be aware aikido has potential for being hard on the body.

Siteofthor 06-18-2011 12:12 AM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
Some interesting responses. I most definitely appreciate the responses and the advice. I want to do a martial art because:

A.) I enjoy and am fascinated/interested in the martial arts.
B.) They help de-stress oneself and focus on things other thing real life if only for a bit.

C.)Self-Defense is a practical afterthought.

Some of the things I have said are being blown a bit out of proportion. I am not a basket case sorry guys. I'm a normal guy, living in a normal area of town, living a normal life at a normal job. My questions are more catered towards those with more experience in the art than myself and with the idea that I am currently studying both but I don't have time to continue to do so and a choice has to be made. I was and am leaning towards aikido I just thought it might be nice to get more info to make a better more educated decision from people who know more than myself so that A, B and C are somewhat covered/quantified in a sense. And please do not slice up everything I just said to make points and counterpoints and so and and so forth. For those that have been reading and giving honest opinions and ideas and being helpful you are most appreciated.

PS, Sure I haven't been injured but being worried about a future injury and not being able to work I believe is somewhat practical and does not make me out to be a hypochondriac. If you must know my toes are sore, and my back hurts sometimes when I take hard falls/throws (again I am a novice).

Thanks,
Jon

Jon

Keith,
"So if self preservation is your priority then perhaps this is something worth considering. "

Not a 100% sure what you mean?

Michael Hackett 06-18-2011 01:26 AM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
Keith was simply saying that stress is a greater danger to one than all the thugs on the street, and if you were that stressed by your life you would be wise to find a release instead of worrying about self defense.

Now that you've explained yourself more fully, my vote is for Aikido. My biased opinion is that it is easier on the body than judo in general. You CAN get hurt, or even killed doing Aikido, but it isn't very likely - riding a motorcycle on the street or commuting to work on a bicycle is probably more dangerous. Good luck and enjoy whichever choice you make.

Gorgeous George 06-18-2011 07:05 AM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
Do aikido if you want to learn to relax, and avoid trouble.
If you want to learn a bit of effective, quick to learn self-defence, maybe just do a boxing/kickboxing class every week; learning the basics of striking isn't too demanding.

DonMagee 06-18-2011 08:29 AM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
Judo is a young mans sport and well worth the effort. If your physically able to do it. I recommend it. That said you will be injured in martial arts. There is no way around that. If your job can't cope with injury, I'd suggest not training.

gates 06-18-2011 10:55 AM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
Quote:

Jon Frashier wrote: (Post 285962)
Keith,
"So if self preservation is your priority then perhaps this is something worth considering. "

Not a 100% sure what you mean?

Jon,
Firstly Jon my apologies if I got the wrong end of the Jo.

I am just trying to highlight the fact that training in Martial Arts, especially ones rooted in tradition are imparting more than physical self defense. There are as many motivations for training as there are practitioners. Your own personal motivations are what is key to finding what you need. You know this so go with your heart.

The teacher is just as important as the style, so shop around.
Good luck !

ChrisHein 06-18-2011 12:15 PM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
Aikido and Judo are both Gendai Budo-modern Japanese martial arts. Between the two, you'll get a pretty comprehensive overview of many Koryu (Japanese old schools) Jujutsu/Aikijujutsu technical syllabus.

Judo focusing mostly on unarmed techniques, one-on-one and Aikido focusing mostly on armed techniques facing multiple attackers. Both are useful, both have their place and strengths, both also have weaknesses.

If you want to gain martial ability that you can "use" you must add resistance via live sparring to your training. There is no way around this no matter what martial art you study. If you just want to study for fun, or self development either will work great.

DH 06-19-2011 12:11 AM

Re: Aikido wrist catching?
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 285981)
Aikido and Judo are both Gendai Budo-modern Japanese martial arts. Between the two, you'll get a pretty comprehensive overview of many Koryu (Japanese old schools) Jujutsu/Aikijujutsu technical syllabus.

This is simply not correct
I have never met anyone actually ...in...koryu (not just iai) who would ever make that statement.
Aikido™ has nothing in it to give a student a comprehensive overview of Koryu: the movement, maai, weapons handling, intent, angles, and approach are much different.
Nor is it going to give you a comprehensive overview of aikijujutsu.
And Aikido™ doesn't function like koryu jujutsu.

Dan


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