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-   -   -"masu" or -"mashita"? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19927)

dapidmini 06-15-2011 04:39 AM

-"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
my japanese teacher(who also practice aikido - 2nd dan) told me that "shita" is past tense so I usually say arigato gozaimashita after everything.:D but yesterday my aikido instructor told me that we use "shita" for something that is still continuing e.g: after pairing up but the class is still in session. when I shared with him what I know from my japanese teacher, he insisted that his understanding is the correct one(aikido instructor - 1st dan) because he's checked with 3 aikido dictionaries from 3 different aikido organizations..:cool:

what do u guys think? what do u usually say after pairing up and after class? is it arigato gozamasu or arigato gozaimashita?:confused:

carina reinhardt 06-15-2011 04:45 AM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Hi David,
You have a nice explanation here

dapidmini 06-15-2011 05:00 AM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
thanks, Carina. the link confirms what my japanese teacher told me. but since I'm not training with him anymore (I moved to another province), I guess I'll have to use the one that's deemed correct by my current instructor?

Peter Goldsbury 06-15-2011 06:16 AM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Quote:

David Santana wrote: (Post 285565)
my japanese teacher(who also practice aikido - 2nd dan) told me that "shita" is past tense so I usually say arigato gozaimashita after everything.:D but yesterday my aikido instructor told me that we use "shita" for something that is still continuing e.g: after pairing up but the class is still in session. when I shared with him what I know from my japanese teacher, he insisted that his understanding is the correct one(aikido instructor - 1st dan) because he's checked with 3 aikido dictionaries from 3 different aikido organizations..:cool:

what do u guys think? what do u usually say after pairing up and after class? is it arigato gozamasu or arigato gozaimashita?:confused:

Well, I teach in two dojos in Japan, where all the students are native speakers of Japanese, so we do not need dictionaries from different aikido organizations. First, here is an example from outside aikido.

When I went to Tokyo recently, I travelled from Hiroshima by shinkansen (bullet train). The train conductors are very polite and the first announcement they gave when the train started off from a station was:
新幹線ご利用いただきましてありがとうございます。Shinkansen goriyou itadakimashite arigatou gozaimasu, which is a polite way of saying 'Thank you for using the shinkansen' (at the beginning of the journey).
Just before the train stopped at a station, the announcement, made to alighting passengers, would be:
新幹線ご利用いただきましてありがとうございました。Shinkansen goriyou itadakimashite arigatou gozaimashita, which is a polite way of saying 'Thank you for using the shinkansen' (that is, having used it, at the end of the journey).

In my own dojos, by far the most common use is 'arigatou gozaimashita', which is used after I have demonstrated a waza, after two students have finished practising together, or when the whole practice ends, after the formal bow. Today, at the university, individual students said, 'arigatou gozaimashita', as they filed out of the classroom.

I have never heard aikido students utter arigatou gozaimasu before they start practising. It is invariably, onegai-shimasu.

Hanna B 06-15-2011 06:56 AM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 285574)
I have never heard aikido students utter arigatou gozaimasu before they start practising. It is invariably, onegai-shimasu.

I was puzzled by the phrase "after pairing up", too. Perhaps David actually means "after finishing training with someone"?

Quote:

David Santana wrote: (Post 285567)
thanks, Carina. the link confirms what my japanese teacher told me. but since I'm not training with him anymore (I moved to another province), I guess I'll have to use the one that's deemed correct by my current instructor?

I can feel your pain!

You could point your aikido teacher to the post by Mr Goldsbury above, and tell him Mr G is not only teaching in Japanese dojos, he's also the president of the International Aikido Federation. But since your teacher already has dismissed opinions from someone who teaches the Japanese language, I guess it mainly comes down to him wanting to do it the way his teacher did. And then the whole issue gets kind of sticky. Telling him he's wrong means telling him his teacher was wrong. He might not want to listen to that. He should, or course. But it might take him some time to digest!

If your teacher actually found support in three aikido dictionaries, he probably misread or misinterpreted them in some way. You could ask to see those aikido dictionaries. But then it might be seen as - and feel - impertinent.

I don't have much suggestions for you, really.

My current teacher - in budo but not in aikido - mispronounces the name of one of his Japanese budo teachers. The Americans pronouce the name wrongly, and he imitates them. Lots of people in my country do, apparently. One day I'll tell him, but I'll wait for a suitable moment. And I won't expect him to believe me... but I'll add "ask anyone who speaks Japanese, or listen to the Japanese when they are mentioning his name". After that it is up to him. I won't try to change him, but I won't copy his mispronounciation either... I won't. If someone would ask that of me, I'd suffer.

Possibly you could quietly use the wordings you have been told are correct without making much fuss about it. But since the issue has been brought up, it might be seen as bad manners not wanting to accept the ways of your new dojo.

Perhaps I should choose not to be impertinent to my teacher either. After all, it seems the Japanese teacher in question does not mind. He probably does not pronounce my teacher's name correctly, either :p

abraxis 06-15-2011 07:05 AM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 285574)
Well, I teach in two dojos in Japan, where all the students are native speakers of Japanese, so we do not need dictionaries from different aikido organizations. First, here is an example from outside aikido.

When I went to Tokyo recently, I travelled from Hiroshima by shinkansen (bullet train). The train conductors are very polite and the first announcement they gave when the train started off from a station was:
新幹線ご利用いただきましてありがとうございます。Shinkansen goriyou itadakimashite arigatou gozaimasu, which is a polite way of saying 'Thank you for using the shinkansen' (at the beginning of the journey).
Just before the train stopped at a station, the announcement, made to alighting passengers, would be:
新幹線ご利用いただきましてありがとうございました。Shinkansen goriyou itadakimashite arigatou gozaimashita, which is a polite way of saying 'Thank you for using the shinkansen' (that is, having used it, at the end of the journey).

In my own dojos, by far the most common use is 'arigatou gozaimashita', which is used after I have demonstrated a waza, after two students have finished practising together, or when the whole practice ends, after the formal bow. Today, at the university, individual students said, 'arigatou gozaimashita', as they filed out of the classroom.

I have never heard aikido students utter arigatou gozaimasu before they start practising. It is invariably, onegai-shimasu.


Hello Peter,

Are the phrases " arigatou", " doumo", or "doumo arigatou" used much in your dojos?

Josh Reyer 06-15-2011 09:57 AM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Quote:

Rudy Ternbach wrote: (Post 285580)
Hello Peter,

Are the phrases " arigatou", " doumo", or "doumo arigatou" used much in your dojos?

This is akin to asking "Are the phrases 'Thanks', 'Thanks a lot', or 'Much appreciated' used much in your workplace?"

dapidmini 06-15-2011 12:03 PM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 285574)
I have never heard aikido students utter arigatou gozaimasu before they start practising. It is invariably, onegai-shimasu.

well, I thought what I said was "after pairing up with someone", not "before pairing up with someone". before pairing up with someone, we all (in the 2 dojos) use onegaishimasu all the same. the problem was after pairing up..:D

I'm not trying to be fussy, I'm just confused.. also, I was asking as a precaution because we're (my current dojo) planning to go to my original dojo and train with Kato shihan who is supposed to visit there that time of year (november-december).. I want to be able to give a correct greeting so that I won't make a fool of myself.:uch:

@Peter: that's an excellent example. I like it very much. thanks :D

@Hanna: since my current dojo's culture is to never contradict the instructor (pyramid dictatorship LOL), I'm planning to continue using the correct form as explained by my previous teacher and you guys (Peter and the link Carina gave me) when he's not around.. fortunately, he can only come occasionally due to his job and since none of the others understands japanese, they won't argue with me about this.. *relieved*

Hanna B 06-15-2011 12:34 PM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
I'm not a native speaker either, but I interpret the term "pairing up" as "getting together with someone to train with". I could be wrong, though. Happens all the time in a second languages (and heavens forbid, sometimes in my native tongue too! but hush, don't tell anyone :p )

Good luck!

abraxis 06-15-2011 01:35 PM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Quote:

Joshua Reyer wrote: (Post 285600)
This is akin to asking "Are the phrases 'Thanks', 'Thanks a lot', or 'Much appreciated' used much in your workplace?"

Sorry if I didn't say more. I guess what I was asking was are these considered too informal or familiar since they weren't included in Peter's very helpful explanation. Or, are these simply not used at the beginning and end of demos/classes but are otherwise heard regularly during practices in the dojos where Peter is the instructor.:o

Richard Stevens 06-16-2011 01:21 PM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Maybe you should discard both your Aikido and Japanese teachers' opinions and go with domo arigatou gozaimashiteimasu. :p

abraxis 06-16-2011 01:56 PM

-"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Quote:

Richard Stevens wrote: (Post 285765)
Maybe ... go with domo arigatou gozaimashiteimasu. :p

Any chance U.S. dojos will just use "domo"?

And, as for tea: I think I'll wait 'til that's a drive-thru ceremony.

:D

Richard Stevens 06-17-2011 10:07 AM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Interestingly enough, in both the local Aikikai school that I've trained at a handful of times and the Jujutsu school I train at full-time, domo arigatou gozaimashita is immediately followed by thank you very much.

abraxis 06-17-2011 10:12 AM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Quote:

Richard Stevens wrote: (Post 285887)
Interestingly enough, in both the local Aikikai school that I've trained at a handful of times and the Jujutsu school I train at full-time, domo arigatou gozaimashita is immediately followed by thank you very much.

Interesting, thanks for that info. I'm hoping for there will eventually be a contracted but polite form of: "domoarigatougozaimashitathankyouverymuch";)

Peter Goldsbury 06-17-2011 06:34 PM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Quote:

Rudy Ternbach wrote: (Post 285580)
Hello Peter,

Are the phrases " arigatou", " doumo", or "doumo arigatou" used much in your dojos?

Hello,

I refrained from responding quickly because I wanted to check. In the past few days I have heard doumo hardly at all and not once in the dojo.

However, I tend to be wary of responding to questions like the one asked by the opening poster, who asked a very general question, but on the basis of a correction made by aikido teachers who are not Japanese native speakers (as far as I can see).

abraxis 06-17-2011 09:20 PM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 285942)
....In the past few days I have heard doumo hardly at all and not once in the dojo.

Hi,

Word counts of spoken language are not easy to do so you have my sincere thanks for your efforts in response to my question.

As a dyed in the wool bean counter I am always interested in empirical observations of different types of behavior including verbal behavior. The question I asked was a way of seeing if there is the same motive to condense and contract phrases and expressions in Japan, or in dojos in Japan, as there generally is in the United States.

In any case, I always try to adopt the local conventions wherever I am and this is why I am thankful whenever a dojocho has their rules and preferences posted on the bulletin board of their dojo or on their website.

Best regards,

R.Ternbach

Peter Goldsbury 06-17-2011 11:13 PM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Quote:

Rudy Ternbach wrote: (Post 285954)
Hi,

Word counts of spoken language are not easy to do so you have my sincere thanks for your efforts in response to my question.

As a dyed in the wool bean counter I am always interested in empirical observations of different types of behavior including verbal behavior. The question I asked was a way of seeing if there is the same motive to condense and contract phrases and expressions in Japan, or in dojos in Japan, as there generally is in the United States.

In any case, I always try to adopt the local conventions wherever I am and this is why I am thankful whenever a dojocho has their rules and preferences posted on the bulletin board of their dojo or on their website.

Best regards,

R.Ternbach

Hello Rudy Ternbach,

In Japan there is a very definite tendency to shorten and abbreviate words and phrases, but this is a general phenomenon, dependent on factors such as age and social group. Both of my dojos are fairly formal places, where tatemae is maintained. This is not by design, but because the students clearly understand tatemae and honne and also understand what a dojo is for. So the Japanese they use is probably similar to the Japanese they would use in any other local dojo, in the absence of any language conventions specific to a particular art.

Since I am practicing and teaching a Japanese martial art in Japan to Japanese, and therefore in Japanese, there is no need for me to post my rules and preferences on a bulletin board or on our website.

The reason why I stated my reluctance to respond to questions like the opening poster's is that they are artificial, compared to what happens here. Here my students are all native speakers and are doing what comes naturally to them.

However, a Japanese instructor of aikido resident abroad might well need to teach students how to use a few selected Japanese phrases, which are undoubtedly correct, but which are a selection, the selection being based partly on the instructor's own experience in Japan and partly on his/her judgment of what is useful or necessary.

Actually, on my teaching trips abroad, I often find myself giving explanations of Japanese usage in the dojo, because the original Japanese instructor has never done this, probably because his knowledge of the vernacular language or of English was not adequate.

Best regards,

Keith Larman 06-20-2011 09:00 AM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
On a related note. Years ago I was sitting on the board for a kyu exam. We usually have a verbal section depending on the level of the test. Anyway, I listened to the test taker go on seemingly forever about the deep meaning of Onegaishimasu as being this special term about the deep respect you have in asking someone to train with you in the dojo.

Later on some of us went out for dinner at a local sushi restaurant that I frequent much more than I should. I made a point of sitting next to the guy and ordering my beer... "Sumimasen, Sapporo Onegaishimasu.", He immediately looked at me with a confused look but then was even more surprised to hear the waitress say "Okay, one beer coming up...".

abraxis 06-20-2011 01:25 PM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Quote:

Keith Larman wrote: (Post 286110)
On a related note. Years ago I was sitting on the board for a kyu exam. We usually have a verbal section depending on the level of the test. Anyway, I listened to the test taker go on seemingly forever about the deep meaning of Onegaishimasu as being this special term about the deep respect you have in asking someone to train with you in the dojo.

Later on some of us went out for dinner at a local sushi restaurant that I frequent much more than I should. I made a point of sitting next to the guy and ordering my beer... "Sumimasen, Sapporo Onegaishimasu.", He immediately looked at me with a confused look but then was even more surprised to hear the waitress say "Okay, one beer coming up...".

:D

A nice example of the americanization of tatemae.

Kent Enfield 06-22-2011 01:47 PM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 285942)
I refrained from responding quickly because I wanted to check. In the past few days I have heard doumo hardly at all and not once in the dojo.

When I was in Japan (Tohoku), I heard doumo all the time, but it was as a casual greeting, not as an expression of gratitude, thanks, or the like.

oisin bourke 06-23-2011 07:56 AM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Quote:

Kent Enfield wrote: (Post 286309)
When I was in Japan (Tohoku), I heard doumo all the time, but it was as a casual greeting, not as an expression of gratitude, thanks, or the like.

Up here in Hokkaido, too. It's often used as a term of acknowledgement, especially by older men.

Chris Farnham 06-23-2011 08:32 PM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
doumo really is one of the more versatile words in the Japanese language. If you look it up in the dictionary it lists 6 disperate meanings:
どうも
1: (Abbreviation) thanks; (Adverb)
2: much (thanks); very (sorry); quite (regret);
3: quite; really;
4: somehow;
5: no matter how hard one may try; (Interjection)
6: greetings; hello; goodbye

When I first came to Japan an Aikido friend,who is incidentally rather active on this site, told me how a senior Aikikai shihan here in Japan once told him that anytime you don't know what to say, just say doumo.

jennifer paige smith 07-30-2011 10:55 AM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Quote:

David Santana wrote: (Post 285565)
my japanese teacher(who also practice aikido - 2nd dan) told me that "shita" is past tense so I usually say arigato gozaimashita after everything.:D but yesterday my aikido instructor told me that we use "shita" for something that is still continuing e.g: after pairing up but the class is still in session. when I shared with him what I know from my japanese teacher, he insisted that his understanding is the correct one(aikido instructor - 1st dan) because he's checked with 3 aikido dictionaries from 3 different aikido organizations..:cool:

what do u guys think? what do u usually say after pairing up and after class? is it arigato gozamasu or arigato gozaimashita?:confused:

I think you should totally call him out on it. Something like, "Look. I know you've got a fancy skirt and all. Buuuuuutttttt......hahahaha. :D

robin_jet_alt 08-01-2011 01:58 AM

Re: -"masu" or -"mashita"?
 
Quote:

Rudy Ternbach wrote: (Post 285888)
Interesting, thanks for that info. I'm hoping for there will eventually be a contracted but polite form of: "domoarigatougozaimashitathankyouverymuch";)

How about "duch"?


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