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-   -   Strength vs Ki. (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19889)

graham christian 06-03-2011 09:00 AM

Strength vs Ki.
 
I am posting a video here for a couple of reasons.

1. In reverence and respect for the teachings of Tohei Sensei.

2. In order to show there is a way of Aikido, a 'soft' way, a Ki way that is effective and beneficial.

It's not so much a video to prove this or that but more for educational purposes, for admiration, for interest.

As I hadn't seen this one before I am assuming maybe many of you havn't either. Although in japanese I think the jist comes across well in this one.

http://youtu.be/MuZdxhA_h4Y

Enjoy. G.

chillzATL 06-03-2011 09:49 AM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Thanks Graham, not a lot of vids of him out there after the split.

jester 06-03-2011 10:34 AM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
At about 14 minutes in those 2 guys look like they are just jumping into a break fall for no reason. It looks very choreographed. I wonder what they are trying to show? I wish I spoke Japanese!

There are also some really good Black and White Tohei videos on Youtube.

Thanks for sharing.

-

graham christian 06-03-2011 11:12 AM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

Tim Jester wrote: (Post 284914)
At about 14 minutes in those 2 guys look like they are just jumping into a break fall for no reason. It looks very choreographed. I wonder what they are trying to show? I wish I spoke Japanese!

There are also some really good Black and White Tohei videos on Youtube.

Thanks for sharing.

-

Hi Tim. Yes I have seen most of those old videos. All good.

To do with the break falls I would say two things really from my perspective.

1. Yes of course it's all choreographed to a greater or lesser degree as it is a presentation. With that the attacker would probably want to carry on into the break-fall even if the technique wasn't perfect.

2. That unless you have experience of that kind of Aikido by someone as competent as Tohei Sensei then it's hard to understand what is actually being experienced and why the resultant effect.

Regards.G.

aikilouis 06-03-2011 12:50 PM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
I am wondering if the video has been pirated.

DH 06-03-2011 02:34 PM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 284924)

2. That unless you have experience of that kind of Aikido by someone as competent as Tohei Sensei then it's hard to understand what is actually being experienced and why the resultant effect.

Regards.G.

Ki...IS.... power, Graham.
Soft power...IS...invasive and destructive as well.
this notion of soft meaning, externally leading or evading is WAZA not aiki.
Tohei good as he was...was not Ueshiba.
cheers
Dan

graham christian 06-03-2011 03:02 PM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 284942)
Ki...IS.... power, Graham.
Soft power...IS...invasive and destructive as well.
this notion of soft meaning, externally leading or evading is WAZA not aiki.
Tohei good as he was...was not Ueshiba.
cheers
Dan

You translate it as such Dan. Good for you.

Regards.G.

sakumeikan 06-04-2011 02:41 AM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 284942)
Ki...IS.... power, Graham.
Soft power...IS...invasive and destructive as well.
this notion of soft meaning, externally leading or evading is WAZA not aiki.
Tohei good as he was...was not Ueshiba.
cheers
Dan

Dear Dan
Is an apple better than an orange?Both are good. Personally I find drawing comparisons between anyone is not so good.Tohei Sensei [no doubt about it ] was a great Aikidoka.
In my view there is no need to compare him with anyone.
Cheers, Joe.

graham christian 06-04-2011 06:17 AM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 284942)
Ki...IS.... power, Graham.
Soft power...IS...invasive and destructive as well.
this notion of soft meaning, externally leading or evading is WAZA not aiki.
Tohei good as he was...was not Ueshiba.
cheers
Dan

Just a note to clarify.

Soft power of which I speak is not destructive.

Soft meaning externally leading or evading is WAZA? Not in my Aikido.

Waza is merely technique and is a result of Aiki motion in my Aikido.

As I said, if you experience that kind of Aikido it is different to what you expect.

Once again more differences come to light. Like the stars in the universe, all have their particular shine.

Regards.G.

stan baker 06-04-2011 10:59 AM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
I think making comparisons can be useful it can help clarify certain points. We can say they were both good that is obvious. What are the differences and how can we get insight into seeing the differences that can be very important.Like I always say we have to look deeper myself included.

stan

graham christian 06-04-2011 11:56 AM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

Stan Baker wrote: (Post 284961)
I think making comparisons can be useful it can help clarify certain points. We can say they were both good that is obvious. What are the differences and how can we get insight into seeing the differences that can be very important.Like I always say we have to look deeper myself included.

stan

Indeed. That one may be better in certain circumstances and less effective in others is obvious no matter which martial art or skill you pick. Thus those kinds of points I'm not very interested in.

That doesn't mean I'm not interested in comparisons for seeing the things which are the same, the things which are similar and the differences, all three lead to better overall understanding I would say.

I never say for example my Aikido is anything to do with what others call internal power and nor do I call it physical or hard. There are sameness, similarities and differences.

Regards.G.

DH 06-05-2011 06:01 AM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 284958)
Just a note to clarify.

Soft power of which I speak is not destructive.

Soft meaning externally leading or evading is WAZA? Not in my Aikido.

Waza is merely technique and is a result of Aiki motion in my Aikido.

As I said, if you experience that kind of Aikido it is different to what you expect.

Once again more differences come to light. Like the stars in the universe, all have their particular shine.

Regards.G.

Graham
Last night i sat down with a group of budoka and watched a selection of videos of your practice. I'm sure your practice is beneficial to you in some way, but whatever you choose to call your movement- none of the budoka watching could relate with it as a form of budo. I now see why we struggled to communicate. We have no common frame of reference.
Dan

graham christian 06-05-2011 07:20 AM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 284980)
Graham
Last night i sat down with a group of budoka and watched a selection of videos of your practice. I'm sure your practice is beneficial to you in some way, but whatever you choose to call your movement- none of the budoka watching could relate with it as a form of budo. I now see why we struggled to communicate. We have no common frame of reference.
Dan

Hi Dan.
Agreed. I had the same kind of problems with my communication on entering this forum. I assumed we all had the same frame of reference or at least similar.

This at first led me to 'attack' those attacking my views. Then to review where I was going wrong. Then to realize how many different lines of approach and different frames of references there were.

Thus I realized my mistake and learned. With understanding I then returned to center so to speak. Some may still thinK I am whatever but to them I say only this:

In my way of Aikido I am as a Giant Oak Tree however in the great field of Aikido I am merely a leaf.

Regards.G.

gregstec 06-05-2011 07:01 PM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 284982)

In my way of Aikido I am as a Giant Oak Tree however in the great field of Aikido I am merely a leaf.

Regards.G.

Hi Graham,

One of the truism in life is that there will always be those that just don't see things the exact way that you do - the important thing is to respect the views of others and to share what there is in common and to move on from what is not.

Personally, I find your posts a little wacky and my budo is not your budo - but I do love your style in presenting it and wish you the best of luck in carrying on with your journey, wherever that may take you :)

For those that may take pleasure in your ridicule, all I have to say to them is grow up and take a close look at your own house before condemning someone else's - people need to learn to live and let live.

Greg

gregstec 06-06-2011 06:23 AM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 285000)
For those that may take pleasure in your ridicule, all I have to say to them is grow up and take a close look at your own house before condemning someone else's - people need to learn to live and let live.

Greg

Just for clarification - although I commented on Graham's reply to Dan's post, my comment above should in no way be construed that I am implying Dan is ridiculing Graham; Dan is too much of a gentleman for that and it is not his style. Dan simply stated that Graham and he are not talking the same language when it comes to aiki and that there is no connection between their communications - that is not ridicule.

For the record, I do speak Dan's language when it comes to aiki, but I also respect Graham's right to express himself in any manner he chooses as long as it is not harmful to others.

Greg

graham christian 06-06-2011 07:28 AM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 285000)
Hi Graham,

One of the truism in life is that there will always be those that just don't see things the exact way that you do - the important thing is to respect the views of others and to share what there is in common and to move on from what is not.

Personally, I find your posts a little wacky and my budo is not your budo - but I do love your style in presenting it and wish you the best of luck in carrying on with your journey, wherever that may take you :)

For those that may take pleasure in your ridicule, all I have to say to them is grow up and take a close look at your own house before condemning someone else's - people need to learn to live and let live.

Greg

Hi Greg.
Good to hear your view. When all said and done it's just communication after all.

A bit like any activity, until we get good at it there will be misunderstandings.

Regards.G.

David Yap 06-06-2011 01:55 PM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Borrowing Graham's thread on Strength vs Ki; from another aikido's great - Gozo Shioda sensei:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DiNQgAbH0Y&NR=1

Cheers

David Y

jester 06-06-2011 02:38 PM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 285011)
when it comes to aiki and that there is no connection between their communications

You need connection for discourse and for Aikido! :D

-

gregstec 06-06-2011 02:47 PM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

David Yap wrote: (Post 285026)
Borrowing Graham's thread on Strength vs Ki; from another aikido's great - Gozo Shioda sensei:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DiNQgAbH0Y&NR=1

Cheers

David Y

Nice clip supporting the view that Shioda trained with Horikawa :)

Greg

gregstec 06-06-2011 02:49 PM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

Tim Jester wrote: (Post 285028)
You need connection for discourse and for Aikido! :D

-

Smart A__ - don't you have to go throw a knife at something :)

DH 06-06-2011 03:45 PM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 285030)
Nice clip supporting the view that Shioda trained with Horikawa :)

Greg

Everything he is doing is out of Kodo's playbook.

But, on to more meaningful things...
Think of Saturday
Think of whole body connection and what we did
Think of how and "where" it affected those hand connections
Think of the body line connection
Think of "If one thing moves, everything moves."
and you have no mystery, and no need to look up to these people for things you can learn to do yourselves.

If not then maybe I should get my outfit back on and get more compliant ukes who would bow to me!!!
Instead I'm stuck with you meat heads who only want to kick my ass!!
Uhm...cheers:D
Dan
P.S. Just imagine hearing of a group of people saying things like this are not taught in Daito ryu or Japanese arts and they only are taught from "secret Asian teachers from one afternoon"...Bwahaha! Who says 'stand up" is reserved for comedy clubs!!

gregstec 06-06-2011 04:00 PM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 285033)
Everything he is doing is out of Kodo's playbook.

But, on to more meaningful things...
Think of Saturday
Think of whole body connection and what we did
Think of how and "where" it affected those hand connections
Think of the body line connection
Think of "If one thing moves, everything moves."
and you have no mystery, and no need to look up to these people for things you can learn to do yourselves.

If not then maybe I should get my outfit back on and get more compliant ukes who would bow to me!!!
Instead I'm stuck with you meat heads who only want to kick my ass!!
Uhm...cheers:D
Dan
P.S. of course we have sewing circles and gossips saying things like this are not taught in Daito ryu or Japanese arts and they only taught from "secret Asian teachers from one afternoon"...Bwahaha! Who says 'stand up" is reserved for comedy clubs!!

My mission in retirement is to grow up and kick your ass :)

That Clip showed pretty basic Daito stuff, or at least the basic stuff Howard is teaching :)

Greg

Marc Abrams 06-06-2011 05:18 PM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 285033)
Everything he is doing is out of Kodo's playbook.

But, on to more meaningful things...
Think of Saturday
Think of whole body connection and what we did
Think of how and "where" it affected those hand connections
Think of the body line connection
Think of "If one thing moves, everything moves."
and you have no mystery, and no need to look up to these people for things you can learn to do yourselves.

If not then maybe I should get my outfit back on and get more compliant ukes who would bow to me!!!
Instead I'm stuck with you meat heads who only want to kick my ass!!
Uhm...cheers:D
Dan
P.S. Just imagine hearing of a group of people saying things like this are not taught in Daito ryu or Japanese arts and they only are taught from "secret Asian teachers from one afternoon"...Bwahaha! Who says 'stand up" is reserved for comedy clubs!!

Dan:

NOBODY wants to kick your ass! Particularly after one of the rabbits from your lair escaped........ :eek:

Marc

DH 06-06-2011 06:04 PM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

Marc Abrams wrote: (Post 285035)
Dan:
NOBODY wants to kick your ass! Particularly after one of the rabbits from your lair escaped........ :eek:
Marc

Yes...but I won't show you how to do it.
I won't tell you how to do it.
Instead, I will open a discussion
And ask...you....how to do it.
"You are the experts after all."
And then magically I will make you think you are learning something meaningful, from a discussion about nothing. :D
me

jester 06-06-2011 06:49 PM

Re: Strength vs Ki.
 
Quote:

David Yap wrote: (Post 285026)
Borrowing Graham's thread on Strength vs Ki; from another aikido's great - Gozo Shioda sensei:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DiNQgAbH0Y&NR=1[/url}

All of those guys are gripping from a very very weak position. It proves that Kuzushi before applying a technique is very important!

I like the way he slides away from his uke right at the start.

-


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