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-   -   Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19808)

Hanna B 05-09-2011 02:02 AM

Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
In aikido, I was taught to hold the very wrist when performning kotegaeshi.

In another art, I have been taught to just hold the hand - not the wrist, since that would make the technique less efficient. So they say. If pain in the joint is what you're after, their point is obvious. Holding the wrist stabilises it, supports it. But other than painwise, I wonder. What aspects - if any - of kotegaeshi is better performed holding the wrist, compared with just the hand?

Would the standard aikido way of performing kotegaeshi as a throw, with uke taking high falls, be possible holding the hand not the wrist? Is holding the wrist instead of the hand a safety measure?

How do the DR people perform their kotegaeshi?

Kote means "wrist", for sure. But even if you hold the hand, it is the wrist that is twisted - actually, even more so.

Carsten Möllering 05-09-2011 02:44 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
Quote:

Hanna Björk wrote: (Post 283269)
In aikido, I was taught to hold the very wrist when performning kotegaeshi.
In another art, I have been taught to just hold the hand - not the wrist, ...

When I began to learn aikido I was told to hold the hand. No other way of kote gaeshi. Placing the thumb on the back of the hand of uke. Ever.
When I had to change the dojo, they never did this there. They grabbed the wrist of uke and I was completely baffled.

Quote:

What aspects - if any - of kotegaeshi is better performed holding the wrist, compared with just the hand?
My understanding of this:
Two different ways to "construct" this technique. Dealing more with the joint (holding the hand) or trying more to get connected to the whole body (holding the wrist). The direction of twisting the hand differs. The way of kuzushi is different. Just a different "picture" of kote gaeshi.

Both forms need kuzushi (at least in aikido). Both forms can cause a whole lot of pain (if tori wants this to do). Both forms can safely guide uke or break his wrist. Tori decides.

Quote:

Would the standard aikido way of performing kotegaeshi as a throw, with uke taking high falls, be possible holding the hand not the wrist?
Yes it devinitely is. And is performed exactly this way as kihon waza in one of the "big lines" of aikido here in Germany.
(I am not used to this and don't like to fall this way ...)

Quote:

Is holding the wrist instead of the hand a safety measure?
I am used to this form of kote gaeshi, like to throw it and have nearly no difficulties to fall it.
In the dojo of the other 2line of aikido" they call this way a "killing technique".

Kote means "wrist", for sure. But even if you hold the hand, it is the wrist that is twisted - actually, even more so.[/quote]

seank 05-09-2011 05:09 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
We've practiced kote gaeshi using the forearm before... same body position and timing, you just take the whole forearm back with you. No gripping of either hand or wrist is necessary if your sabaki and tenkan movements are well timed (your mileage may vary of course).

We usually perform this by holding the wrist as a fulcrum and rotating the hand away from the body whilst turning the whole arm around and back toward the body.

Demetrio Cereijo 05-09-2011 05:56 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
In all the pics I've seen of founder doing kotegaeshi he was grabbing uke's hand, not the wrist.

CitoMaramba 05-09-2011 06:22 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
Quote:

Hanna Björk wrote: (Post 283269)
Kote means "wrist", for sure. But even if you hold the hand, it is the wrist that is twisted - actually, even more so.

Actually "tekubi" 手首 (literally "arm neck") means wrist.
"Kote" 小手 is more usually translated as "forearm".

In kendo, the gauntlets are also called "kote" and they cover the entire hand and up to the middle of the forearm.

chillzATL 05-09-2011 06:54 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
hand

incorrect:

http://www.edinburghjitsu.com/member...ote_gaeshi.jpg

correct:

http://www.fightingarts.com/content0...e-punch-04.jpg

Carsten Möllering 05-09-2011 06:54 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
This is the way we practice kote gaeshi.

grondahl 05-09-2011 07:10 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
We grab the hand (around the meaty part of the thumb) and roll the fingers in an angle behind the back of uke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DOhGmysZyo

phitruong 05-09-2011 07:37 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
methink, it's about chain-lock all the joints of the arm and connect it to the spine which connects to uke's center and break his/her structure/balance. after that, you can do whatever you want.

Hanna B 05-09-2011 07:38 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
Just to make sure we all are talking about the same things... I could have been more precise, to begin with.

Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 283271)
When I began to learn aikido I was told to hold the hand. No other way of kote gaeshi. Placing the thumb on the back of the hand of uke. Ever.
When I had to change the dojo, they never did this there. They grabbed the wrist of uke and I was completely baffled.

All versions of kotegaeshi that I have seen and practised have had tori's thumb on the back of uke's hand. What I'm referring to is how low/high on the hand you place the grip - if you'll cover the wrist, or not. Do you mean your current version just holds around the wrist, no thumb on the back of the hand? Since you can do gotegaeshi holding the underarm all versions should be possible, I guess. But I've never seen this one.

Quote:

Peter Gröndahl wrote: (Post 283290)
We grab the hand (around the meaty part of the thumb) and roll the fingers in an angle behind the back of uke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DOhGmysZyo

Where does he have his little finger and ring finger? On uke's palm, or around his/her wrist? The second possibility is the "wrist" version I am referring to. These fingers prevent the wrist from bending very much inwards.

Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 283271)
My understanding of this:
Two different ways to "construct" this technique. Dealing more with the joint (holding the hand) or trying more to get connected to the whole body (holding the wrist).

Thank you! I was thinking of something like that. I guess it should be possible to do the kotegaeshi "hand only" version with an excellent connection from center to center - but perheps more difficult to learn it this way?

Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 283271)
The direction of twisting the hand differs. The way of kuzushi is different. Just a different "picture" of kote gaeshi.

Just how is the direction of twisting of the hand different? More out if holding wrist, more "inwards" towards uke's underarm if hand only, or something else? And what about the kuzushi?

Demetrio Cereijo 05-09-2011 07:45 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
Quote:

Hanna Björk wrote: (Post 283296)
Where does he have his little finger and ring finger? On uke's palm, or around his/her wrist? The second possibility is the "wrist" version I am referring to. These fingers prevent the wrist from bending very much inwards.

All tori's fingertips in uke's lifeline.

grondahl 05-09-2011 07:57 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
The fingers rest in the palm of uke, not the wrist.

CitoMaramba 05-09-2011 08:53 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
Quote:

Inocencio Maramba wrote: (Post 283286)
Actually "tekubi" 手首 (literally "arm neck") means wrist.

My bad, it should be "hand neck"...

Keith Larman 05-09-2011 09:23 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
I've seen it done many different ways, but that doesn't mean that each is equal or that it doesn't matter how you go about it. I would agree with Phi up above that the issue is about destabilizing the other person. How that is done via that particular connection can vary. Some emphasize strong bending of the wrist to stretch out the connection (take out the slack). Often they don't have to use the fingers to "finish things off" as the slack is all out already when done "correctly". Others affect the balance of the attacker by manipulation of the forearm more or less directly. And then there are variations in how much twisting is done, when it is done, how it is done, etc.

My point is that you can really screw up the technique by mixing aspects of various ways of doing it. Or you can do a very nice kotegaeshi by making sure you're doing all the "correct" aspects together. Meaning if you're on the hands and you're not doing a lot of twisting you need to get the arm more extended and bend the wrist more completely. And so on.

There are a lot of ways of doing things "right". And some of them are totally wrong *given* the underlying "operating system" of another style. And you can really mess things up by mixing and matching which is why many who start "innovating" well before they've even come close to understanding one way are often so terrible...

Reuben 05-09-2011 10:08 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
I believe this was from Roy Suenaka's article:

Pic as posted above by Jason

My own experiences with kote-gaeshi are that even with proper technique, relying on the wrist turn alone is insufficient especially those with conditioned wrists (not just Aikido but those in jujitsu and BJJ) can resist.

The way that I find works for me is to ensure that the opponent is overextended so that his balance is broken already before applying the kote-gaeshi so that you aren't just relying on the wrist-turn (and is generally less painful). Trying to kote-gaeshi someone with a strong wrist in a balanced position is risky. Just my 2 cents.

NagaBaba 05-09-2011 11:44 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
Quote:

Hanna Björk wrote: (Post 283269)
In aikido, I was taught to hold the very wrist when performning kotegaeshi.

In another art, I have been taught to just hold the hand - not the wrist, since that would make the technique less efficient. So they say. If pain in the joint is what you're after, their point is obvious. Holding the wrist stabilises it, supports it. But other than painwise, I wonder. What aspects - if any - of kotegaeshi is better performed holding the wrist, compared with just the hand?

Would the standard aikido way of performing kotegaeshi as a throw, with uke taking high falls, be possible holding the hand not the wrist? Is holding the wrist instead of the hand a safety measure?

How do the DR people perform their kotegaeshi?

Kote means "wrist", for sure. But even if you hold the hand, it is the wrist that is twisted - actually, even more so.

You question indicates that when somebody is pointing you a moon you are looking at his finger.
HOW/WHAT you grab in kotegaeshi doesn't matter at all. What is important, is to create a connection to his center (i.e. by locking all joins from wrist to hips) to be able to unbalance him. Sometimes it is enough to use only his small finger. Sometimes you can use his elbow or shoulder…

If you are interested only by his hand/wrist, you will lock only wrist. If he is not unbalanced, you can break his wrist but you can't throw him.

Hanna B 05-09-2011 11:54 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
Kuzushi has already been pointed out as very important.

Thanks.

Alberto_Italiano 05-09-2011 06:19 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
I can account only for myself, so my contribution is only meant as my own way, in case it may help you.

I don't know what's correct or wrong - but I do use my both hands, and one is only on the wrist. With the hand I place on the wrist I am merciless - it's far from being only a "support". I cut in and push down with all the dynamism I have (I said dynamism, not force). The other hand produces the projection.

Now, with the provision that i can place my hands on uke's wrist in the right position (palm upward), if this happens, I have not seen anyone who did not tumble to the ground immediately, often with a pretty startled expression, and with some side soundtrack effect lol

However, I have seen several times people who did not fall when I tried special effects - using one hand only: bad idea.

ps I fell twice doing kotegaeshi adding tenkan to it, and I am sure I need to keep counting.
But if you place your hand on a wrist - hey USE it! Cut and down, NO mercy with that (injuries may be caused by the hand that causes the projection, not by your hand on the wrist)

Aikibu 05-10-2011 03:29 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
Washing down the arm (drawing Uke in) and the Wrist are the Keys to good Kotegashi.

It's kind of a grainy vid but here is Nishio Shihan's intergrated view in one of his last Seminars.

Done correctly Uke's own weight gathers at his wrist and the technique "happens" naturally without much too effort.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFodznUgiAU

William Hazen

Amir Krause 05-12-2011 02:22 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
I believe the way we do it in Korindo would be considered as grabbing the hand, though the small fingers are at the base of the palm and not in it (nor on the wrist).
We still get a connection to the center, no prob.
We do not make a big throw normally , rather throw Uke to be close by, and direct the throw directly down-wards. Most larger throws I have seen give more of an opportunity for reversal (depending on the quality of the Kuzushi, if good enough it should not matter at all).

Amir

ArakisTheKitsune 05-12-2011 08:08 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
Quote:

Hanna Björk wrote: (Post 283269)
In aikido, I was taught to hold the very wrist when performning kotegaeshi.

In another art, I have been taught to just hold the hand - not the wrist, since that would make the technique less efficient.

In out dojo we learn to hold wrist like on this picture http://arlingtonjujitsu.org/images/g...KoteGaeshi.gif
But there also technique which demands to hold hand for kotegaeshi.

graham christian 05-13-2011 10:26 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
Hi Hanna,
thought I'd give you an answer of the way I was taught and having used and experienced many 'types' come to the conclusion that there is only one correct one.

I was originally taught that the word meant 'turning the glove' meaning the hand of a samurai holding a sword. This will become clearer as I progress.

Therefore I was taught it's holding mainly the wrist with the thumb going up the back of the hand to the third knuckle.

If you put your hands in front of you both palms up and notice the dip in the middle of the palm of say your left hand, now curl your right hands fingers and wrist towards yourself and place that already bent wrist into the dip of your left palm. Do it in such a way that your left hands thumb automatically folds in to the third knuckle of the right hand (next to the index finger). Now the three fingers from the small digit finger should be wrapping around the wrist leaving your left index finger loose. This one is then used as a guide, a pointer.

The technical reasons why for this are as follows.

When you apply the technique the basic reason is to turn the opponents energy back towards him so you need a hand that naturally bends back towards it's own wrist.

Secondly, contrary to a lot of opinion you want to as I said turn the hand back to the opponents own wrist and NOT twist it in any way. The second hand would then, in the beginning, be used merely to assist by helping the opponents fingers point through their own wrist, down to earth.

Now lest we forget it is meant to be a turn, not a twist or a squash or 'snap'

This is an important point for the 'truth' of the kotegaeshi is that you eventually will be merely creating a circle so that all force coming through from the opponent just goes back around that circle and so he defeats himself.

Now I shall tell you why that hold is the most natural one. Aikido is a moving art. When a tsuki comes through you should already be moving. If you are employing taisabaki you are entering in a circular fashion and if you are using irimi, tenkan then you enter off line but then you turn. Once again turn should equal circle in the aikidoka's mind and thus the destination if you continues would actually be behind the attacker, where he's coming from. As Tohei would say; 'take you partners place'

However, the point is you should be moving and turning quite uninterested in the opponents strike for you are looking for where the 'others' are so to speak. You already know where the opponents fist or whatever is.

So now we come to the interesting part. If you imagine your hand as let's say an eagles claw then as you move and turn it drops onto the opponents arm and slides nicely down to the wrist. Thus no need to 'grab at' any more.

A natural move to a natural kotegaeshi. Of course as with all things it takes lots of practice and awareness of all the other factors like correct ma-ai etc so I don't mean it's necessarily easy.

Lastly before anyone berates me for saying (in fact I insist on it in my Aikido) that you mustn't twist at all the persons wrist for kotegaeshe I have another reason for that which may someday save you from harm.

In the beginning I said how turning the glove I would explain later. Well, when doing kotegaeshi the twisting of the hand seems to be the thing that gives the pain and goes against the joint and makes the whole thing happen, thus you get the holding and twisting the hand also. Very painful and very effective UNTIL..........

Until you meet someone holding a knife, or weapon or indeed anything. The holding of something actually protects the persons wrist from being damaged and if he has the slightest nous it prevents kotegaeshe from working for he can due to the fact he's holding something pull his hand out and slice yours at the same time.

From a circular kotegaeshe he cannot do this and it should feel like you are holding a ball. You can turn the ball back towards him or even bounce the ball and see him bounce off the mat. Thus I call the other forms bad practice.

They are easier to do initially but in the end can lead you to being a danger to yourself.

One more thing on this. When you get good at the circular one then it doesnt matter also if the opponent has a strong tightly clenched fist either.

Hope that helps.G.

Demetrio Cereijo 05-13-2011 10:53 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
Hi Graham,

Too many words for me :)

So let's try again, please.

You're gripping (a) this way or you are gripping (b) this way?

graham christian 05-13-2011 11:17 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 283736)
Hi Graham,

Too many words for me :)

So let's try again, please.

You're gripping (a) this way or you are gripping (b) this way?

Hi. (a)

Now how do you come up with such good pictures or vids so quickly?

Demetrio Cereijo 05-13-2011 11:25 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist?
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 283738)
Hi. (a)

Thanks for the clarification.
Quote:

Now how do you come up with such good pictures or vids so quickly?
My google-fu is strong. IHTBF :)


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