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abraxis 05-07-2011 08:55 AM

Aikido and Music
 
Forgive this naive question, but does anybody teach Aikido while music is playing in the dojo? That is audible music everyone practicing can hear.
If the answer is "no-never", Why Not?

Thanks in advance for your consideration of what is obviously a naive beginner's question.

carina reinhardt 05-07-2011 09:08 AM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Hi Rudy,
In our dojo not, because there is always music coming from below the aerobic class, we must close the door, otherwise we would hardly hear our teacher.

abraxis 05-07-2011 09:17 AM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Quote:

Carina Reinhardt wrote: (Post 283129)
Hi Rudy,
In our dojo not, because there is always music coming from below the aerobic class, we must close the door, otherwise we would hardly hear our teacher.

Hi Carina,

I think other people's music (OPM) coming from outside the dojo where you are practicing is not uncommon. As far as hearing the Sensei goes, the music from inside the dojo could be turned down while s/he is speaking and demonstrating. For instructional demonstrations without spoken descriptions I don't think it would matter much.

Best,

Rudy

carina reinhardt 05-07-2011 09:23 AM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Of course, it depends of the dojo, I don't think that the owner would put any material for this, he teaches taekwondo(to adults and children) on other days and other hours, my teacher only has the tatami 2 days 90 minutes in the week

abraxis 05-07-2011 09:26 AM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Quote:

Carina Reinhardt wrote: (Post 283131)
Of course, it depends of the dojo, I don't think that the owner would put any material for this, he teaches taekwondo(to adults and children) on other days and other hours, my teacher only has the tatami 2 days 90 minutes in the week

It would be simple enough for a teacher to bring a portable boombox or Ipod with portable speakers.

carina reinhardt 05-07-2011 09:28 AM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Yes, you are right, I'll ask my teacher what he thinks about music:)

graham christian 05-07-2011 09:49 AM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
For me no. I have been asked a few times by students if it wouldn't be a good idea to do so, especially when they start experiencing the flow and rhythm of a motion or technique.

My reply is no when they ask and I explain it will make them lazy. The responsibility is for them to create the motion and rhythm not to follow an external one.

Now THERE'S a difference between Aikido and dancing.

Regards.G.

abraxis 05-07-2011 10:43 AM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 283136)
....The responsibility is for them to create the motion and rhythm not to follow an external one.
Now THERE'S a difference between Aikido and dancing.
Regards.G.

Yes, I agree, "THERE'S a difference between Aikido and dancing", Kanai Shihan said the same. I still think of it as a Performance Art--with music or without.

Best,

RT

Janet Rosen 05-07-2011 11:35 AM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Quote:

Rudy Ternbach wrote: (Post 283128)
Forgive this naive question, but does anybody teach Aikido while music is playing in the dojo? That is audible music everyone practicing can hear.
If the answer is "no-never", Why Not?

Thanks in advance for your consideration of what is obviously a naive beginner's question.

To me the more apt question is, why would I?

Aikido to me is about being in the moment responding to my partner. Why would I want to time my aikido to anything other than his attack, my internal environment (breathing, my own natural pace) and awareness of other potential attackers - why impose an arbitrary external stimulus?

Janet Rosen 05-07-2011 11:45 AM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Addendum:
In the case of traffic noise, music bleed from neighbors, etc, isn't the idea to learn to be aware of yet also filter out what is extraneous to the training in order to have focus where it needs to be?
So again the question that rises for me is, why would I purposely add an external beat/music to the training?

The only answer that comes to mind is "to dance to" so I guess my question back is : what value do you perceive in having two people surrender their own natural body rhythms to an external one? Why dance?

Not trying to be obtuse. I listen to music when I paint or sew but the goal of my aikido training is different and I honestly don't understand.

Mark Freeman 05-07-2011 12:19 PM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Hi all,
I remember asking a very similar question when I was quite new to AW - some interesting replies -

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...t=aikido+music

I don't use music in the dojo, but still am of the mind that the soundtrack that fits aikido the most, from a structural point of view is improvised Jazz.

regards,

Mark

graham christian 05-07-2011 12:32 PM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote: (Post 283149)
Hi all,
I remember asking a very similar question when I was quite new to AW - some interesting replies -

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...t=aikido+music

I don't use music in the dojo, but still am of the mind that the soundtrack that fits aikido the most, from a structural point of view is improvised Jazz.

regards,

Mark

Nahhhh. Surely it's reggae.

abraxis 05-07-2011 12:35 PM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote: (Post 283149)
Hi all,
I remember asking a very similar question when I was quite new to AW - some interesting replies -
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...t=aikido+music
I don't use music in the dojo, but still am of the mind that the soundtrack that fits aikido the most, from a structural point of view is improvised Jazz.
regards,
Mark

Mark,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply and the url for the thread which previously addressed this topic. What made me ask this was the other day I got to my new dojo quite a bit earlier than the rest of the class and Sensei was listening to Ray Charles. I thought to myself that this is certainly going to be different. However, it wasn't to be, after a few more minutes passed the music was shut off and I was in a dojo like so many others -- without music. Is it the martial and spiritual traditions which Aikido derives from that have prevented music from being part of its practice? Is it that music is considered a distraction in a dojo which is both a school and a temple to many Senseis? I don't know. I do know that the absence of music is remarkable.
Best regards,
Rudy

P.S. Mies Davis would be great but Ray Charles would be nice too.

Janet & Graham,

I am only a beginner and I feel this is turning into randori. I think I need to put on some music to stimulate the part of my brain where my Aikido is stored--might be right next to the Roots Rock gyrus.:D
Best,

graham christian 05-07-2011 12:53 PM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Quote:

Rudy Ternbach wrote: (Post 283151)
Mark,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply and the url for the thread which previously addressed this topic. What made me ask this was the other day I got to my new dojo quite a bit earlier than the rest of the class and Sensei was listening to Ray Charles. I thought to myself that this is certainly going to be different. However, it wasn't to be, after a few more minutes passed the music was shut off and I was in a dojo like so many others -- without music. Is it the martial and spiritual traditions which Aikido derives from that have prevented music from being part of its practice? Is it that music is considered a distraction in a dojo which is both a school and a temple to many Senseis? I don't know. I do know that the absence of music is remarkable.
Best regards,
Rudy

P.S. Mies Davis would be great but Ray Charles would be nice too.

Janet & Graham,

I am only a beginner and I feel this is turning into randori. I think I need to put on some music to stimulate the part of my brain where my Aikido is stored--might be right next to the Roots Rock gyrus.:D
Best,

Rudy. Not sure what you mean there and if you think my mention of reggae was a dig. No, it was merely a response to Mark tongue in cheek. I liked the question, that's why I answered.

All the best.G.

abraxis 05-07-2011 01:02 PM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 283153)
Rudy. Not sure what you mean there and if you think my mention of reggae was a dig. No, it was merely a response to Mark tongue in cheek. I liked the question, that's why I answered. All the best.G.

Graham,
Fact is, I took your remark as most likely tongue in cheek as wel as a likely musical preference. And I was mostly joking when I referred to a Roots Rock gyrus--but not entirely:D :D .
Regards,
RT

Janet Rosen 05-07-2011 02:26 PM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Quote:

Rudy Ternbach wrote: (Post 283151)
I do know that the absence of music is remarkable.

Rudy, asking in true curiosity: why?

Mark Freeman 05-07-2011 02:34 PM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 283150)
Nahhhh. Surely it's reggae.

Graham, I do love a bit of good reggae but sometimes the strict accent on the upbeat is not flexible enough for aiki purposes;)

abraxis 05-07-2011 03:19 PM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 283159)
Rudy, asking in true curiosity: why?

Janet,

In all honesty, I see people listening to music everywhere I go. It's on their laptops, ipods, hi-fi systems, it's in elevators, in their cars, in the stores where they shop, they hear music of one kind or another while on their exercise equipment, while jogging, doing chores, when they goto church etc. I come into a dojo where Ray Charles is being played but soon, and well before another student shows up, the music is turned off. It is a white environment and it is silent--like a math lab. To my mind, the absence of music in dojos is remarkable that's all. I guess I might have asked, Why is this space, the dojo, so different from most other spaces--acoustically that is?

Best,

RT

Janet Rosen 05-07-2011 03:20 PM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 283150)
Nahhhh. Surely it's reggae.

Oh, thanks, Graham, now I''m setting Tohei's four principles to "Pressure Drop" ("center drop...") and nothing will get it out of my head until I go put on some Toots....:D

graham christian 05-07-2011 05:30 PM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote: (Post 283160)
Graham, I do love a bit of good reggae but sometimes the strict accent on the upbeat is not flexible enough for aiki purposes;)

Ahhh, Mark.
Like the fella said in the movie 'white men can't jump' ---

'Your hearing the music but your not listening.' Or was it the other way around?

No, but seriously, let me introduce you to a little something about reggae. I remember my old teacher who prided himself with his piano playing. One day composed a piece of music via his musical software on his computer and played it to me joking he was now a master of reggae.

I listened and then laughed to his surprise and said 'we call that english reggae' (by the way it was nothing like ub40) He had emphasized that so called up beat.

I proceded to tell him to listen more from the base line. That is the key. The base covers the first three beats and the fourth is silent so it's; 123_,123_,123_, 123_. Woahhhhh, I feel koshi, all I need now is some harmonies from hara!

Maybe we could put an accent in that space and it would be like a sword?

Mmmm. Think I'll leave the musical translation of Aikido to my son on second thoughts.

Regards.G.

graham christian 05-07-2011 05:38 PM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 283163)
Oh, thanks, Graham, now I''m setting Tohei's four principles to "Pressure Drop" ("center drop...") and nothing will get it out of my head until I go put on some Toots....:D

Sorry about that Janet. Yeah, toots may do the trick or may I suggest a nice calming Natural Mystic, that's good for clearing the head.

On this vibe I'd better not say regards so I'll say RESPECT.G.

Mark Freeman 05-07-2011 06:32 PM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 283166)
Ahhh, Mark.
Like the fella said in the movie 'white men can't jump' ---

'Your hearing the music but your not listening.' Or was it the other way around?

No, but seriously, let me introduce you to a little something about reggae. I remember my old teacher who prided himself with his piano playing. One day composed a piece of music via his musical software on his computer and played it to me joking he was now a master of reggae.

I listened and then laughed to his surprise and said 'we call that english reggae' (by the way it was nothing like ub40) He had emphasized that so called up beat.

I proceded to tell him to listen more from the base line. That is the key. The base covers the first three beats and the fourth is silent so it's; 123_,123_,123_, 123_. Woahhhhh, I feel koshi, all I need now is some harmonies from hara!

Maybe we could put an accent in that space and it would be like a sword?

Mmmm. Think I'll leave the musical translation of Aikido to my son on second thoughts.

Regards.G.

Oh I agree that the bass line is what drives it all along, and the space between the notes is where the magic of the music resides. And reggae is directly connected to the hips, no doubt, it certainly gets to mine.:)

I still think that jazz has the edge in the aikido analogies stakes. There is soft, slow, flowing and melodic, there is fast, rhythmic, and full on ('hard bop', which sounds like an MA style in itself), then there is free form improvisation, where the music can find it's own path. Of course there is some pretty bland stuff out there, and some which is not to everyone's taste.

One of my own favourite clips on youtube is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTg5V2oA_hY

I can't help but watch this and admire the partner work, the superb following, the fearless movement, the focus, the energy, the connection, the timing, the physicality and the shear joy of doing. There's a nice bit of movement from the hips (especially at 0:55;)) and for those that like a well executed throw, then 1:46 should delight. Most aikidoka would love to be able to operate at their level, wouldn't we?

regards

Mark

graham christian 05-07-2011 06:42 PM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote: (Post 283173)
Oh I agree that the bass line is what drives it all along, and the space between the notes is where the magic of the music resides. And reggae is directly connected to the hips, no doubt, it certainly gets to mine.:)

I still think that jazz has the edge in the aikido analogies stakes. There is soft, slow, flowing and melodic, there is fast, rhythmic, and full on ('hard bop', which sounds like an MA style in itself), then there is free form improvisation, where the music can find it's own path. Of course there is some pretty bland stuff out there, and some which is not to everyone's taste.

One of my own favourite clips on youtube is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTg5V2oA_hY

I can't help but watch this and admire the partner work, the superb following, the fearless movement, the focus, the energy, the connection, the timing, the physicality and the shear joy of doing. There's a nice bit of movement from the hips (especially at 0:55;)) and for those that like a well executed throw, then 1:46 should delight. Most aikidoka would love to be able to operate at their level, wouldn't we?

regards

Mark

Hey, now that there is MOVEMENT. Excellent. Koshinage's, taisabakis, tenkans, even roundhouse kicks. Oh dear, I'm just a beginner!

Regards.G.

abraxis 05-08-2011 08:25 AM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote: (Post 283173)
....One of my own favourite clips on youtube is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTg5V2oA_hY....
Most aikidoka would love to be able to operate at their level, wouldn't we?regards Mark

Mark,
Many thanks for posting the clip. I know I'd love to operate on that level. Also, and I don't wish to appear disrespectful of wisdom or tradition but, What would O'Sensei have to say about this?
Regards,
RT

Mark Freeman 05-08-2011 08:55 AM

Re: Aikido and Music
 
Quote:

Rudy Ternbach wrote: (Post 283204)
Mark,
Many thanks for posting the clip. I know I'd love to operate on that level. Also, and I don't wish to appear disrespectful of wisdom or tradition but, What would O'Sensei have to say about this?
Regards,
RT

Hi Rudy,

I have no idea what he would have to say about this, the film was made in 1941, so he may have even seen it.
He did say that aikido should be practiced in a joyfull manner, and he would see the people who were in the clip certainly doing just that.
My guess is that he would be as impressed with their skills and abilities as we are:)

regards,

Mark


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