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-   -   Kesagiri suburi, etc. (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19794)

mathewjgano 05-04-2011 09:07 PM

Kesagiri suburi, etc.
 
Quote:

Hugh wrote:
Whether Tandoku Undo teaches good use of the handblade, well... if you're gonna teach sword movements, get a sword. I think you'd do better to spend the time on kesagiri suburi practice. You'd learn more about moving from center, and moving the center, and moving, and proper hanmi, and extension, and ki extension, and keeping the shoulders loose, and not muscling the movement, and not allowing the movement to take you off center, and a bunch of other stuff, than all the tandoku undo in the world.

Hi Hugh,
What about kesagiri suburi do you think makes it better for those things you described? Is it having the weight of bokken to play with the momentum?
Cutting across center-line with extension and contaction toward the hips? Something else?
What about tandoku undo makes it less optimal in your opinion?
Take care,
Matt

ewolput 05-05-2011 09:17 AM

Re: Kesagiri suburi, etc.
 
When Ohba sensei was around, he suggested people to study the sword to broaden their view on aikido.
The tandoku undo is in the history of Tomiki aikido changed. If we see the Tomiki movie Judo Taiso, he is doing it in a slighly different way. He is also doing more movements then the current JAA way.
When Senta Yamada came to the UK, he thaught already a revised version in the beginning 60ties. Also the names of the movements is changed. The current JAA tandoku undo is concentrated mostly forward, the old way also included to the side.
In the Tomiki movie we also can see a happo undo;
Why they changed, maybe under influence of tanto randori (?)
IMO the tandoku undo is a multipurpose set of movements and to understand someone has to explain what you are doing. I remember someone from the UK who said : those waving with the arms just like a policeman, that was his interpretation of tandoku undo:D

hughrbeyer 05-05-2011 11:18 AM

Re: Kesagiri suburi, etc.
 
This is currently an enthusiasm of mine, because I keep finding connections between the sword work and taijutsu. The kesagiri exercise is particularly deep because it involves horizontal movement from the hara, a change of hanmi, and the sword stroke, all integrated. It's not about crossing the centerline, exactly--it's about distributing power horizontally using the hara.

The exercise I'm talking about here is a basic Kashima exercise: diagonal strike from left to right while stepping into a left hanmi; reverse, sword circles around into a diagonal strike from right to left while stepping into a right hanmi. The "step" is forward on one foot, back on the other so you don't actually move. Repeat forever.

Here's a short list of things I'm working on right now:

* Movement initiated by moving the hara, independently of and in advance of the hips and shoulders.

* Raising the sword without using arm strength.

* Bringing the sword down without using arm strength.

* Relaxed shoulders throughout the movement.

* Full ki extension from the hara, through the arms, out the sword, across the gym.

* No slack anywhere in the movement. No loss of connection between the hara and the sword.

* Hanmi low and relaxed. Knees open throughout the movement, including the moment in the changeover when the feet are together. Head at the same level throughout the movement. Weight between the feet at all times.

* Knees and kua relaxed. Momentum of the sword taken around the body and absorbed through the forward knee.

* Ki extension forward balanced by ki extension backwards. Body completely centered and on balance throughout the movement.

* Awareness and intent focused forward throughout the movement. Stroke ends ready for the next stroke.

Much of this could be practiced with tandoku undo, but the sword makes it more obvious if you're doing it badly. After 1000 suburi with a heavy Kashima-style bokken, you'll know if you're using arm strength to raise it. If you check your posture at the end of each stroke, you'll know if you're on balance. The weight of the sword gives you something to pull around with your hara--if you're just moving your arm the difference between moving it with hara and not is much more subtle. Because kesagiri is a diagonal movement it's easier to free hara from hips and rib cage, whereas it's easy to practice tandoku undo treating the whole trunk as a unit.

sakumeikan 05-05-2011 05:20 PM

Re: Kesagiri suburi, etc.
 
Quote:

Hugh Beyer wrote: (Post 282964)
This is currently an enthusiasm of mine, because I keep finding connections between the sword work and taijutsu. The kesagiri exercise is particularly deep because it involves horizontal movement from the hara, a change of hanmi, and the sword stroke, all integrated. It's not about crossing the centerline, exactly--it's about distributing power horizontally using the hara.

The exercise I'm talking about here is a basic Kashima exercise: diagonal strike from left to right while stepping into a left hanmi; reverse, sword circles around into a diagonal strike from right to left while stepping into a right hanmi. The "step" is forward on one foot, back on the other so you don't actually move. Repeat forever.

Here's a short list of things I'm working on right now:

* Movement initiated by moving the hara, independently of and in advance of the hips and shoulders.

* Raising the sword without using arm strength.

* Bringing the sword down without using arm strength.

* Relaxed shoulders throughout the movement.

* Full ki extension from the hara, through the arms, out the sword, across the gym.

* No slack anywhere in the movement. No loss of connection between the hara and the sword.

* Hanmi low and relaxed. Knees open throughout the movement, including the moment in the changeover when the feet are together. Head at the same level throughout the movement. Weight between the feet at all times.

* Knees and kua relaxed. Momentum of the sword taken around the body and absorbed through the forward knee.

* Ki extension forward balanced by ki extension backwards. Body completely centered and on balance throughout the movement.

* Awareness and intent focused forward throughout the movement. Stroke ends ready for the next stroke.

Much of this could be practiced with tandoku undo, but the sword makes it more obvious if you're doing it badly. After 1000 suburi with a heavy Kashima-style bokken, you'll know if you're using arm strength to raise it. If you check your posture at the end of each stroke, you'll know if you're on balance. The weight of the sword gives you something to pull around with your hara--if you're just moving your arm the difference between moving it with hara and not is much more subtle. Because kesagiri is a diagonal movement it's easier to free hara from hips and rib cage, whereas it's easy to practice tandoku undo treating the whole trunk as a unit.

Dear Hugh,
Like you I find kesa giri training quite rewarding.My own emphasis is keeping relaxed shoulders, elbows tucked in , focus on the angles of the cut and of course the foot work.
If you look in you tube, you will see a very short vid of Chiba Sensei doing solo kesa giri work.This vid was taken by myself while I was in San Diego Aikikai on Kenshusei training.
Cheers, Joe.

hughrbeyer 05-05-2011 06:41 PM

Re: Kesagiri suburi, etc.
 
Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 282999)
If you look in you tube, you will see a very short vid of Chiba Sensei doing solo kesa giri work.This vid was taken by myself while I was in San Diego Aikikai on Kenshusei training.

Joe -- I'd love it if you could dig up a link to that vid. I've searched using all the obvious terms and come up blank. In fact, I've never been able to come up with a decent YouTube vid of the kesagiri exercise.


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