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-   -   Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19781)

Alberto_Italiano 04-30-2011 02:08 PM

Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
I stumbled today into this:
Uke is coming towards me with a right handed Yokomenuchi.
I instinctively parry it with my right forearm, lifting his yokomenuchi upward above my head and as I do that I roll my forearm around his and I step forward.
At this point I find his hand trapped under my right armpit and my right forearm behind his elbow (the pressure is in the family of Ikkyos, obviously...).
I exert a minimal pressure with my right forearm against his elbow, adding to it the pressure of my left hand, his hand still trapped under my armpit, and I tenkan.

Uke is on his knees nearly immediately and I find myself placed in a very convenient position.

Has this a name? I stumbled into it acting istinctively and not in a dojo.
Thaank you

Tony Wagstaffe 04-30-2011 02:34 PM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
Quote:

Alberto Italiano wrote: (Post 282578)
I stumbled today into this:
Uke is coming towards me with a right handed Yokomenuchi.
I instinctively parry it with my right forearm, lifting his yokomenuchi upward above my head and as I do that I roll my forearm around his and I step forward.
At this point I find his hand trapped under my right armpit and my right forearm behind his elbow (the pressure is in the family of Ikkyos, obviously...).
I exert a minimal pressure with my right forearm against his elbow, adding to it the pressure of my left hand, his hand still trapped under my armpit, and I tenkan.

Uke is on his knees nearly immediately and I find myself placed in a very convenient position.

Has this a name? I stumbled into it acting istinctively and not in a dojo.
Thaank you

Spontaneous waza....?

Alberto_Italiano 04-30-2011 02:40 PM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
I don't know. I suppose it must have some name. It just seems so natural now it came into that struggle, and so effective and simple, that I am supposing it must have been codified somewhere already.
I don't think it's my invention gee.

ps if it is I retain the right to baptise it: and we shall call it: The Preacher (keep doing it to guess why) :-D

However, seriously: I think it is codified somewhere, maybe not in aikido?

graham christian 04-30-2011 02:57 PM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
Quote:

Alberto Italiano wrote: (Post 282582)
I don't know. I suppose it must have some name. It just seems so natural now it came into that struggle, and so effective and simple, that I am supposing it must have been codified somewhere already.
I don't think it's my invention gee.

ps if it is I retain the right to baptise it: and we shall call it: The Preacher (keep doing it to guess why) :-D

However, seriously: I think it is codified somewhere, maybe not in aikido?

I would say if as your facing him you are stepping through off line to the right then it is indeed a version of ikkyo. If you are stepping through to the left off line then the first part is half of iriminage and the second part half of ikkyo.

But that's analytical after the event. As Tony said it's just waza of which their is whatever happens based on aiki motion. You can analyze it after and then relate it to various standard techniques and learn from it. It's not exceptional, it's normal.

Having said that it sounds like you quite impressed yourself. Well done.

G.

Alberto_Italiano 04-30-2011 03:04 PM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
No, I am surprised that I have never met this technique before in any Aikido dojo.
I am arguing it is Aikido because it is not harmful to the opponent and it takes avail of ikkyo and tenkan principles. But as said maybe it is not.

Since I have never been taught this before, I am not impressed but rather I am surprised: why I have never seen this before, must be my fault probably.

It was very effective and started as an evolution along the natural lines of the most natural parry one may produce in such a setting.
It _must_ already have a name.

I would be somewaht puzzled if it hasn't. We teach many strange techniques at times, it can't be this one isn't in any official pack.

Maybe it's not aikido after all. Uhm.

Tony Wagstaffe 04-30-2011 03:13 PM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
Quote:

Alberto Italiano wrote: (Post 282592)
No, I am surprised that I have never met this technique before in any Aikido dojo.
I am arguing it is Aikido because it is not harmful to the opponent and it takes avail of ikkyo and tenkan principles. But as said maybe it is not.

Since I have never been taught this before, I am not impressed but rather I am surprised: why I have never seen this before, must be my fault probably.

It was very effective and started as an evolution along the natural lines of the most natural parry one may produce in such a setting.
It _must_ already have a name.

I would be somewaht puzzled if it hasn't. We teach many strange techniques at times, it can't be this one isn't in any official pack.

Maybe it's not aikido after all. Uhm.

It sounded to me to be somewhere in between ikkyo and nikyo, but does it really matter if it worked? :)

Alberto_Italiano 04-30-2011 03:22 PM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
No it doesn't Attilio, you're quite right.

But if this was my invention on the spot and no one has a name for this, I am baffled.

Go try it then. It seems to call itself.

incoming yokomenuchi, you instinctively bow and parry with your same arm. Fear makes you do this.

as you raise up realising your right forearm is in contact with uke's arm, you keep rotating your arm from outward inwardly, as if spinning a rope around uke's arm. His hand is gonna go trapped under your armpit by itself.

Your hand is now already on his elbow, ready to exert any convenient pressure upward, straigtward and downward. With a tenkan you can place uke down using one arm only and nearly no strength (if you use both hands, you will find yourself with your joint hands in front of your chin as if you were praying).

bah it must have a name already, sometime it will come out!
i thought it had one and I only ad to ask to know it. Maybe it's not aikido.

thank you anyway - and happy techniques lol

sakumeikan 04-30-2011 04:08 PM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
Quote:

Alberto Italiano wrote: (Post 282578)
I stumbled today into this:
Uke is coming towards me with a right handed Yokomenuchi.
I instinctively parry it with my right forearm, lifting his yokomenuchi upward above my head and as I do that I roll my forearm around his and I step forward.
At this point I find his hand trapped under my right armpit and my right forearm behind his elbow (the pressure is in the family of Ikkyos, obviously...).
I exert a minimal pressure with my right forearm against his elbow, adding to it the pressure of my left hand, his hand still trapped under my armpit, and I tenkan.

Uke is on his knees nearly immediately and I find myself placed in a very convenient position.

Has this a name? I stumbled into it acting istinctively and not in a dojo.
Thaank you

Hi, Alberto,
Sounds akin to Rokyuho. Cheers, Joe.

Michael Hackett 04-30-2011 04:28 PM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
Joe mentioned Rokyuho - I think that's what we call gokyu, the armbar. Alberto's technique sounds very much like a gokyu from a different position. We'll have to give it a try Monday.

Basia Halliop 04-30-2011 04:29 PM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
Do you mean something like this? (this is from a different attack, obviously)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoKc5gZ0Hew

If yes, it's an Aikido technique with more than one name.

If you mean something else.... I wouldn't be surprised if it was also an Aikido technique... probably also with more than one name :).

Janet Rosen 04-30-2011 04:31 PM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
Our gokyo is ikkyo with hand position reversed, generally used for tanto takeaway. What Alberto describes I'd call the tenkan/ura version of what I learned as rokkyo.

graham christian 04-30-2011 04:36 PM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
Quote:

Alberto Italiano wrote: (Post 282592)
No, I am surprised that I have never met this technique before in any Aikido dojo.
I am arguing it is Aikido because it is not harmful to the opponent and it takes avail of ikkyo and tenkan principles. But as said maybe it is not.

Since I have never been taught this before, I am not impressed but rather I am surprised: why I have never seen this before, must be my fault probably.

It was very effective and started as an evolution along the natural lines of the most natural parry one may produce in such a setting.
It _must_ already have a name.

I would be somewaht puzzled if it hasn't. We teach many strange techniques at times, it can't be this one isn't in any official pack.

Maybe it's not aikido after all. Uhm.

Alberto. I'm surprised by your view. I've seen it many times and similar.

I can visualize what you did and see lack of foot movement on your part and a yokomen where the attacker didn't go through.

If you bow and parry through fear and think that's natural then your mistaken. It will work only to the degree of incompetence or lack of strength or power of the attacker.

Plus on the subject of natural you wouldn't duck and parry any yokomen. You would have to move your body in harmony with the motion to meet it in the first place.

So yes it is part of learning Aikido but no it's not good Aikido and not good technique.

You won't see it on video because they only show the correct ones however I'm surprised you havn't seen it and similar if as you say you have been to many dojos. (when trying to rescue a bad situation)

Regards.G.

Michael Hackett 05-01-2011 12:14 AM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
The Iwama clip showing rokyo is gokyo to me. I agree with Graham C. when he speaks of ducking under the strike as being poor technique. With that exception, it still sounds like some sort of reverse gokyo technique.

sakumeikan 05-01-2011 01:38 AM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 282602)
Our gokyo is ikkyo with hand position reversed, generally used for tanto takeaway. What Alberto describes I'd call the tenkan/ura version of what I learned as rokkyo.

Dear Janet,
I meant rokkyo, Maths never my strong point! Cheers, Joe.

Michael Varin 05-01-2011 01:45 AM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
I get the sense that when Alberto is finished with his entry/blend that he is still facing opposite uke and the arm bar style lock on the elbow is coming from below, right arm on right arm. That is not rokkyo.

The problem I'm having is visualizing the tenkan from that position.

I could be way off base.

This is why videos help so much.

Eva Antonia 05-01-2011 02:01 AM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
Hi,

maybe I confuse something or cannot correctly visualise it from the description...but I'd have said hijikime osae (lock of upper arm under armpit); this is quite feasible on yokomen uchi and starts similarly to ikkyo.

Have a nice Sunday!

Eva

Amir Krause 05-01-2011 02:55 AM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
Sorry, could you post some video / drawings / animation

I can not even follow the phisical desctription.

Amir

Alberto_Italiano 05-01-2011 08:32 AM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
Hallo

ok I am trying to describe this better. To be sure, this happened in a real confrontation - something that last time happened to me 10 years ago. Not big deal, a drunkard attempting to throw a bottle at my face - that nice. And to be sure I was scared as HELL and not ashamed of saying it!

Unfortunately we have no video of that Kodak moment...

First just let me thank you all for your time, and let me answer to Graham objection: though dodging a hook by lowering may not be an aikido encouraged or appropriated procedure, it is the standard procedure with boxing.
Unfortunately that was my background 20 years ago and I still dodge hooks by lowering, instinctively.

But as Attilio stated, it's not important - the fact is, what came out by this "mistake" was something very effective when inserting Aikido principles on it.

In this case the right hook with the bottle: I lower. As I dodge lowering, I find my left hand near my chin and my right hand in front of my eyes and forehead.
Place yourself in such position, with slightly bent knees - it's easy.

Now I raise back (you too) to stand up once again. This is the most natural thing to do.

My right forearm gains a contact with uke's right arm. It is normal in such a dynamic. You may envision it easily, at least till this point.

Place your right hand in front of your face, at some average distance. Now lower and then raise back. Imagine now that you stand back again, that your right arm in front of your face feels the contact with ukes right forearm.

[0]
In this setting uke's right arm is on the right side of your face, and your right forearm intercept it and clashes with it as you stand back.

Now I try to describe the natural eveolution of the thing, how this technique came out by itself.

[1]
You instinctively push aside uke's right arm with your right arm. While doing so your right forearm "accidentally" (or naturally?) slips over uke's right arm.

[2]
At this point you're pushing it aside rightward but as you do that, you also have a natural tendency to push it downward.

[3]
It is at this point that you may realize that, in a "close combat" setting (sorry for the funny wording, Englihs is not my native lang), ukes hand is spontaneously going under your right armpit.

[4]
At this point I realize i can trap uke's arm there and I close my armpit.

[5]
Doing that motion my right arm has now performed a 360 degrees rotation around uke's arm: I find myself back to position [0] but with a significant change: uke's hand is locked under my armpit and my arm has rotated around uke's arm so now: his right hand under my armpit, my right bicep on the inner side of uke's right arm, my right forearm on the outward side of uke's arm.

[6]
The back of my hand is against uke's elbow, his right hand trapped under my armpit. You realize immediately there is a leverage there, if you exert pressure with your right hand.
Do exert such pressure. (you may call in your left and to aid your right hand). Imageine you have no time to think, you feel there is an opportunity and yous seize it.

[7]
NOW do tenkan - no matter what else. Do it.
Uke will rotate with you and will be projected forward on his knees.

Alberto_Italiano 05-01-2011 08:47 AM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w...t=IMG020-1.jpg

I hope this poor quality image helps. This is a frugally rebuild image of the final arm lock (this round made with the left arm, because my silly camera couldn't make the photo better than in that position). If from that situation you step forward and you tenkan, your hand will exert pressure on uke's locked arm and bring him down.

This may work only: right arm traps right arm, or left arm traps left arm.

mathewjgano 05-01-2011 10:07 AM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
Quote:

Alberto Italiano wrote: (Post 282640)
http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w...t=IMG020-1.jpg

I hope this poor quality image helps. This is a frugally rebuild image of the final arm lock (this round made with the left arm, because my silly camera couldn't make the photo better than in that position). If from that situation you step forward and you tenkan, your hand will exert pressure on uke's locked arm and bring him down.

This may work only: right arm traps right arm, or left arm traps left arm.

When you tenkan (right hand to right hand) do you float uke's right side up before dropping to his knees? What you're describing of uke reminds me a version of soto kaiten I've practiced. Does uke end up facing you at the end of the drop or is uke's body rotated away from you similar to shihonage ukemi?

Alberto_Italiano 05-01-2011 12:59 PM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
Matthew, the strange fact with this technique is that once I was doing it, it seemed to call itself. If you do it, once set in the photo position, tenkan comes out as the most natural thing to do.

However, I want first to address once again Graham's point. he is right inasmuch as you don't dodge blows by lowering in Aikido - however:
1) it came out in a situation where the "hyper" controlled setting of a dojo was not there - one just reacts naturally and one of the most natural things to do when you see incoming stuff, is to dodge. Then, you have to arrange your Aikido accordingly to your natural reaction in a real situation, because real ukes don't accommodate you.
2) despite I first met this "technique" by dodging, thinking about it now, you can probably place this technique also in avariety of different situations - most of them fully "aikido-compliant".

To answer Matthew, once I realized I had his hand and bottle under my armpit and my right hand was placed like my left one in the photo, i sensed immediately there was an ongoing leverage. I applied pressure with my right hand on his elbow (in that real situation, also my left hand came to rescue adding its own pressure joining my right hand, as if I were "praying").

Tenkan seemed the most natural thing to do as I was placing that pressure (sort of an ikkyo done with one arm only, sort of).

So I:
1) placed pressure on uke's elbow, in the imaginary straight line going to my right 2) tenkan, and this yielded a CLOSE contact with uke's back 3) another thing that came spontaneously to do, was to bend down a bit, so to have a straight pressure matched with a downward pressure (we had downward a diagonal, basically) matched with a tenkan rotation.

the effect is that you find yourself on uke's side and uke is projected in front of you, groping with his free left arm sensing he is falling face down. Once you exert also the downward pressure (something that you will do naturally once your tenkan is completed), he falls on his knees (or at least this is what happened).

I have to practice it in a dojo again, but in that situation uke was not lifted (though you are right, matthew: you could also lift), he was projected while his right hand was secured under my armpit.

He fell without facing me. I was on top of him, he giving me his back, as when you are doing an ikkyo, only this seemed more effective than an ikkyo.

Keeping his hand locked under your armpit and keeping the pressure on his elbow, you can place your left hand on his shoulder to keep him down. He made some goofy attempt to stand back but apparently it was not possibile for him. I could feel I had a firm grasp and a still working leverage. I kept him there maybe less than 10 seconds then security staff took over.

Maybe it' s more of an Hapkido thing?
It surely exist in some martial art, it came out as something very natural once you feel your right arm clashing against uke's right arm: you SPIN your arm around it, and if you step forward to grab his hand under your armpit (in my situation it slapped there by itself, thence I realized I had an opportunity), you're set.

uke falls showing to you his back, his arm still secured, "wrapped" around yours.

zivk 05-01-2011 11:52 PM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
I second Eva Röben's suggestion of the technique called hijikime. From reading Alberto Italiano's description it seems that there are possibly several points of resemblance, e.g.,
Quote:

Alberto Italiano wrote: (Post 282578)
his hand trapped under my right armpit... pressure with my right forearm against his elbow, adding to it the pressure of my left hand, his hand still trapped under my armpit... Uke is on his knees nearly immediately and I find myself placed in a very convenient position.

Here's are a couple of link to Hiroshi Tada sensei (9th dan, aikikai) in the last phase of this technique:

http://www.aikikai.it/aikinosu/aikid...004/Hiji01.JPG
http://www.aikikai.it/aikinosu/aikid...06/Sp06-34.jpg

Abasan 05-02-2011 12:11 AM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
Hmm..

A right hook comes, you weave under and a typical boxer counter punch would have come from a straight. Instead, you parry starting from uke's outside and wrapping around his hand bringing it into your arm pit with your hand placed against his elbow.

You then tenkan on your left feet to bring him to his knees.

From your armpit lock, uke should be able to elbow you and free himself. But with 2 hands then this can transition into either ikkyo or hijiate. Except hijiate is typically done with the opposite hand locking on the elbow.

In any case I've seen this done in systema often from a straight punch but again on the opposite hand.

I do it too but without ducking. Cutting the hooking elbow with your forearm and bringing it across and downwards, you'll bend uke's elbow and typically turn him around with his neck conveniently accessible to your left hand. Not sure if that is relevant but its not something I'll do against a boxers hook though.

Michael Varin 05-02-2011 04:27 AM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
Alberto is not describing the conventional rokkyo or hijijime. What he is describing is more of a variation on what I would call mai otoshi.

The pressure on the elbow is coming from underneith.The "eye" of the elbow is pointing up, not down as it would be in rokkyo/hijijime.

SmilingNage 05-02-2011 06:29 AM

Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?
 
I envision it as either a kata katame or ude garame gone slightly eschew.


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