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-   -   Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19760)

Mario Tobias 04-24-2011 02:59 PM

Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed
 
Hi all,

We were doing basic katatetori/morotetori techniques and one of the observations I had with my partner was that for NAGE, there is risk that Nage's fingers get grabbed by UKE instead of the wrist from kamae. UKE will then have a chance to reverse and turn it into sankyo even before NAGE performs a technique.

If you think about it, the fingers are the nearest point of attack, not the wrist. Have been practicing all this time and havn't really thought about it. :o

Janet Rosen 04-24-2011 05:44 PM

Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed
 
Everything is theoretically reversible...sounds like a good opportunity for after class slow experimenting!

Tony Wagstaffe 04-25-2011 04:52 AM

Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 282236)
Everything is theoretically reversible...sounds like a good opportunity for after class slow experimenting!

Twist 'em?

sisley 04-25-2011 09:09 AM

Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed
 
The attack doesn't begin once Uke has latched on to some part of Nage's body. Rather, Nage needs to blend with the attack and lead Uke. Once this is understood by Nage, then it doesn't really matter what part of the body Uke is attacking.

My teacher in Japan would often offer his finger for me to grab and he would always send me flying. The finger, after all, is an extension of the wrist, as long as the whole body-arm-hand-finger unit is being moved as one.

phitruong 04-25-2011 10:23 AM

Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed
 
tough call though. against someone who knows what they are doing like the chin-na folks, might as well sacrifice the finger(s) and kick the bugger, that is if you could at all. found this reversal which is kinda interesting against a nikkyo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKrAFjsXqTM&NR=1 of course if you ran into fingers like those of rock climbers, they are pretty tough to deal with.

Tony Wagstaffe 04-25-2011 10:45 AM

Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 282265)
tough call though. against someone who knows what they are doing like the chin-na folks, might as well sacrifice the finger(s) and kick the bugger, that is if you could at all. found this reversal which is kinda interesting against a nikkyo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKrAFjsXqTM&NR=1 of course if you ran into fingers like those of rock climbers, they are pretty tough to deal with.

Nothing is absolute Phi, people have trouble getting stuff on me unless they get it patt..... Being a sparks for 20 years does develop strong fingers and forearms as anybody who uses their fingers and wrists a lot in a manual skilled job.... nowadays it's all power tools, where as we didn't have any when I was doing up full time up until1986. I still keep my hand in with plenty of DIY projects around the house, by the time you set up the power tool (lazy sods) it's done. These new guys in the trade are amazed at how fast I can home in a screw either hand and not the one your're thinking of either.....:D

Marc Abrams 04-25-2011 01:18 PM

Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 282265)
tough call though. against someone who knows what they are doing like the chin-na folks, might as well sacrifice the finger(s) and kick the bugger, that is if you could at all. found this reversal which is kinda interesting against a nikkyo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKrAFjsXqTM&NR=1 of course if you ran into fingers like those of rock climbers, they are pretty tough to deal with.

Phil:

There was absolutely no kazushi in that video clip, so it is not surprising that this person had an opportunity to do a counter. If the nikyo was executed with the person's center being disturbed, I do not think that the person would be so successful in countering. I think that some people make a mistake of simply attacking the wrist (or any particular joint with joint locks) on a nikyo without any connection and unbalancing (or jamming) of the person's center.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

phitruong 04-25-2011 01:54 PM

Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed
 
Quote:

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: (Post 282268)
These new guys in the trade are amazed at how fast I can home in a screw either hand and not the one your're thinking of either.....:D

hey, i was going to mention something along the fast screw line. :)

problem with manual labor, which i do enjoy from time to time, my lady complaint that my hands became to rough, which isn't about my waza per say. ;)

i tell ya that picking rocks to clear a field could produce tough fingers and other stuffs.

as far as dealing with finger grabs, i'd use the curve finger approach that rock climber use, might buy you a moment or two.

phitruong 04-25-2011 02:02 PM

Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed
 
Quote:

Marc Abrams wrote: (Post 282277)
Phil:

There was absolutely no kazushi in that video clip, so it is not surprising that this person had an opportunity to do a counter.

Marc Abrams

absolutely. no kuzushi, no go. what interesting for me in that video was the usage of fingers for reversal, which i have not thought of before of being available. in aikido, we don't usually go for fingers so it's refreshing to see other options.

Janet Rosen 04-25-2011 05:14 PM

Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 282279)
in aikido, we don't usually go for fingers so it's refreshing to see other options.

As a person with small hands and weak grasp (due to arthritis so nothing I can "do" about it) I keep in mind what two of my teachers have taught me: (besides making sure nikkyo, sankyo, etc involve connection to center and locking up the body for kuzushi) don't struggle to do "proper" grip, just take ahold of the little finger if that's all I can manage.... :D

Tony Wagstaffe 04-25-2011 08:10 PM

Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 282278)
hey, i was going to mention something along the fast screw line. :)

problem with manual labor, which i do enjoy from time to time, my lady complaint that my hands became to rough, which isn't about my waza per say. ;)

i tell ya that picking rocks to clear a field could produce tough fingers and other stuffs.

as far as dealing with finger grabs, i'd use the curve finger approach that rock climber use, might buy you a moment or two.

Any manual labour will make the hands rough and tough, there is always Nivea or Vaseline to stop them chaffing:D Fishermen pee on their hands to stop the skin blistering, we used to do that to our feet in preparation before going on long forced marches in basic training RN, it works, I don't know how, but it does.... can't see anyone doing that on this forum......:D

George S. Ledyard 04-25-2011 11:10 PM

Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed
 
Quote:

Marc Abrams wrote: (Post 282277)
Phil:

There was absolutely no kazushi in that video clip, so it is not surprising that this person had an opportunity to do a counter. If the nikyo was executed with the person's center being disturbed, I do not think that the person would be so successful in countering. I think that some people make a mistake of simply attacking the wrist (or any particular joint with joint locks) on a nikyo without any connection and unbalancing (or jamming) of the person's center.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

This was a perfectly good application of what I would call the "neutral pivot point". However, the fellow being countered wasn't running any real connection to the center. his energy was all at the wrist. So the counter worked just fine. It would not be as easy if the guy applying the "nikkyo" had some idea how to get "inside" his partner and touch his center. It's not a criticism... all counters are ipso facto only happening when the opponent has left an opening. A technique done really properly doesn't get countered. So, since they were showing the "counter" I wouldn't have expected any more emphasis on how to better do the nikkyo than there was.

Tony Wagstaffe 04-26-2011 04:06 AM

Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKrAFjsXqTM&NR=1

Ha! you saw the opening to George?, he made it far too obvious.... didn't like the angle he was executing much either, it has to be where it makes atemi really awkward especially if you already have kuzushi....;) and the opportunity to strike atemi yourself.....

RonRagusa 04-26-2011 06:02 AM

Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed
 
Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote: (Post 282296)
However, the fellow being countered wasn't running any real connection to the center...

Hi George -

Understanding that the clip was a demo of a counter, and not a "how to perform nikkyo" performance, a couple of observations:

In addition to not connecting with uke's center, extending the fingers during the execution of the technique is an invitation for uke to grab them, just as was demonstrated. If nage had extended Ki with a slight irimi, as he began the technique, in order to unbalance uke a bit and connect with his center, relaxed his wrist and let his fingers conform to the shape of uke's forearm just above the wrist, there would have been no opportunity for uke to counter.

Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote: (Post 282296)
A technique done really properly doesn't get countered.

A point that was emphasized time and again by Maruyama sensei; usually while he was countering one of my attempts to throw him. :o

Best,

Ron

Mario Tobias 04-26-2011 06:23 AM

Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed
 
Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote: (Post 282296)
This was a perfectly good application of what I would call the "neutral pivot point". However, the fellow being countered wasn't running any real connection to the center. his energy was all at the wrist. So the counter worked just fine. It would not be as easy if the guy applying the "nikkyo" had some idea how to get "inside" his partner and touch his center. It's not a criticism... all counters are ipso facto only happening when the opponent has left an opening. A technique done really properly doesn't get countered. So, since they were showing the "counter" I wouldn't have expected any more emphasis on how to better do the nikkyo than there was.

Yes, I agree completely. There wasn't any wrist-center connection. I had my sensei do that kosadori nikkyo similar to the video. Done properly, this hurts MORE than the basic nikkyo and it hurts like hell. What I was told was to imagine cutting uke's belly with a sword (open hand, either a shomen or diagonal belly cut:uch: ) or revving a motorcycle handle (if ukes wrist is grabbed) but in both instances always attacking/piercing ukes hara.

Plus the instant that both uke and nage's tegatanas make contact for the nikkyo, uke should already be (or going) down and grimacing in pain. The more you try to get up, the more pain you experience. In the video, it looks like the nage still needs to make very large adjustments in order for the technique to work, that's why uke has a lot of time to counter.

Amir Krause 05-01-2011 04:10 AM

Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed
 
Quote:

Mario Tobias wrote: (Post 282310)
Plus the instant that both uke and nage's tegatanas make contact for the nikkyo, uke should already be (or going) down and grimacing in pain. The more you try to get up, the more pain you experience. In the video, it looks like the nage still needs to make very large adjustments in order for the technique to work, that's why uke has a lot of time to counter.

Counters are based on errors in application, a long set-up for a technique is one such less obvious error.

A good technique application should surprise Uke with un-expected lock/throw. If Uke can forsee, he can evade your technique, this may seem far-fetched if you only practice Kata, but practicing Randori (with both partners playing at will) should provide sufficient experince.

If ones fingers are grabbed, he will most likley be Uke.

Amir


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