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confused 04-13-2011 12:11 PM

What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
How to you tell your sensei (with respect) their waza isn't good any more, that it has deteriorated and become stagnate. Because you respect your sensei your just not going to abandon her, after all the time and effort she has put into you. You want her to regain the lost skill, she once had.

Marie Noelle Fequiere 04-13-2011 12:25 PM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
What do you mean, Sensei's waza has deteriorated? And how could such a thing happen to someone who is teaching, wich means that she has to decorticate the techniques on a regular basis?
Is she getting older, showing signs of Alzheimer's?
How long have you been training with her?
Are there other, more advanced students who share your opinion?
We need to know all that before we can help you.

SeaGrass 04-13-2011 01:18 PM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
or maybe the style has evolved to something you're not used to?

As my sensei's getting older, his techniques become softer but still powerful, and his movements become more intricate. I found it more challenging to learn.

mathewjgano 04-13-2011 01:35 PM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
I would say it's better to ask probing questions than to tell her you think her waza is no good. Maybe ask her why her waza seems to have changed instead. As it is now you sound like you think you know better than she does...and maybe you do, but as a student it's probably best to start out with asking instead of telling.

sakumeikan 04-13-2011 02:41 PM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
Hi All,
This blog is rather sad. Here we have a junior stating that the sensei's skill has deteriorated.The writer does not indicate whether the sensei is mature /injured or in ill health.Now we all face illness , old , and the grim reaper.
Rather than be grateful to this sensei , the writer is more or less saying the sensei is past it.Even if the sensei is past it , the sensei should be given respect .The sensei should also be given assistance.
Is the writer a junior teacher, has he ever taught classes for years?
The responsibility placed on any Sensei is awesome.How would you feel if you were a Sensei going to the dojo night after night , giving your best to your students , and they were in effect receiving the gift of aikido in less than grateful manner?
Rather than be critical, why not be a bit more understanding and compassionate?Why not shoulder some of the burden or offer support to the teacher?
Cheers, Joe.

Russ Q 04-13-2011 03:21 PM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
I agree with Joe....To me"confused" sounds like a troll. If Sensei is teaching every night then I doubt they're losing skill. Perhaps "confused" is getting better, or hitting a wall re: skill and not getting what they want.....hard to tell without more information. Even with more info, Joe's answer gives "confused" a clear path to move forward from.....

JW 04-13-2011 04:59 PM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 281485)
How to you tell your sensei (with respect) their waza isn't good any more, that it has deteriorated and become stagnate. ...

Is this from Gozo Shioda's diary? He said similar about Ueshiba post-war. What did he do? Ask for 9th dan, while running his own school! There you go.

ps I think Shioda was wrong about Ueshiba, and maybe you are wrong about your teacher. As has been pointed out, people who are actively practicing don't normally get worse, they normally get better. Sometimes that means they are starting to prefer something that you don't.
If you ask her, "what do you think about this technique" and then do your superior "old way," maybe a good conversation could be had.

If they have a neurodegenerative disease, then you can't get them to "regain the lost skill," you can only support them.

Marc Abrams 04-13-2011 08:20 PM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 281485)
How to you tell your sensei (with respect) their waza isn't good any more, that it has deteriorated and become stagnate. Because you respect your sensei your just not going to abandon her, after all the time and effort she has put into you. You want her to regain the lost skill, she once had.

Confused:

It would be helpful to know what you mean by "lost skills", "deteriorated" and "stagnate". It would also help to know approximately how long you have been studying the art. It is hard to determine why you are experiencing what you are.

Marc Abrams

confused 04-13-2011 11:29 PM

One more time. Ho do you tell your sensei they need help
 
How to you tell your sensei (with respect) their waza isn't as good as it once was a few years ago. That due to neglect of skill. To provide a common and universal fictional example, such as, focusing on teaching and neglecting their personal training, has resulted in the deterioration of skill, and stagnation of personal developmental training. Because you respect your sensei, you just don't want to tell her, theoretically, she is as good as she was a couple of years ago. That is has become just the opposite, and if you don't get it together I finding a new dojo. It is a complicated situation where I am not going to just abandon her, after all the time and effort she has put into me as a teacher. I am not going to abandon her because her skill level has slipped over last couple of years, simply because she can't hold the mark. Because you respect her, as she is your sensei and shows up to class, giving of herself, you want her to regain that lost skill, she once had. You want her to shine, You don't want other students out performing her to the point where new students are giving more credibility to the assistant Sensei whose skill and technique is clearly better, now that hers has slipped. And no she isn't injured or old.

Janet Rosen 04-14-2011 12:32 AM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
So... Is this an unaffiliated dojo where the instructor never visits other dojos to train with peers, or attends seminars? Does she encourage students to attend seminars or does she encourage you to only train there and never deviate from just one right way to do a limited number of things? Are you on your own plateau and frustrated, or as sometimes happens, has your training reached the student equivalent of late adolescence so that you need to separate from your teacher and part of that naturally involves finding fault?

I ask these things because your follow up post does very little to clarify your OP.

sakumeikan 04-14-2011 01:07 AM

Re: One more time. Ho do you tell your sensei they need help
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 281509)
How to you tell your sensei (with respect) their waza isn't as good as it once was a few years ago. That due to neglect of skill. To provide a common and universal fictional example, such as, focusing on teaching and neglecting their personal training, has resulted in the deterioration of skill, and stagnation of personal developmental training. Because you respect your sensei, you just don't want to tell her, theoretically, she is as good as she was a couple of years ago. That is has become just the opposite, and if you don't get it together I finding a new dojo. It is a complicated situation where I am not going to just abandon her, after all the time and effort she has put into me as a teacher. I am not going to abandon her because her skill level has slipped over last couple of years, simply because she can't hold the mark. Because you respect her, as she is your sensei and shows up to class, giving of herself, you want her to regain that lost skill, she once had. You want her to shine, You don't want other students out performing her to the point where new students are giving more credibility to the assistant Sensei whose skill and technique is clearly better, now that hers has slipped. And no she isn't injured or old.

Dear Confused,
So here we have a young lion [you]saying that the sensei is not as good as she was. You then state the other students are thinking the assistant instructor is better. My own view is this , you do not appreciate a lady who may well have sacrificed her own training to help you and the assistant instructor.Instead of belly aching and being critical , just train .If you cannot do this , get out of the dojo.
I for one would not miss you if this was your mindset.Anyway , comparisons between Sensei in my view is wrong.Each person brings something to the table.What do you bring to the table[apart from criticism? Joe.

Demetrio Cereijo 04-14-2011 02:52 AM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
Sensei's role is teaching.

If her technique is not what used to be back in the day it really doesn't matter. What matters is hers students performance.

Carsten Möllering 04-14-2011 03:17 AM

Re: One more time. Ho do you tell your sensei they need help
 
Hi

I know your problem very well. I experienced similar situations more than just once, looking back all those years. I had to go through this with my own teacher. And I saw it happen in other dojo I know well.

The most important insight I got:
Quote:

... you want her to regain that lost skill, she once had. You want her to shine, ...
This will not happen. In most cases when I saw sensei loose their abbilities, this had reasons which where deeplly anchored in their live. And it always was a very long time process until I or we only recognized what happened. Those teachers would have neede to change their lives (money, familie, priorities, things like that).

Quote:

ocusing on teaching and neglecting their personal training,
This mostly is the reason when teachers loose it. Is there a possibilitie make her practice for herself? Can you help this??? Will she do it???
We wanted to help one of our former sempai. So one of us led the practice once a month instead of him. But he didn't use this possibility to practice himself. He just stayed away from training when he was "free".

Quote:

How to you tell your sensei (with respect) their waza isn't as good as it once was a few years ago.
How? There is only one way to tell someone something: You have to talk to her. It's just that. No easy way, no shortcut, not helpfull phrases.
"sensei, in my eyes, your technique is not good anymore as it used to be."
I had such a conversation with my teacher. And I was very baffled: He affirmed every word of my critique. He had seen it, long before I did. (He quit aikido about half a year later. And he was very happy with that!)

Quote:

if you don't get it together I finding a new dojo
This you needn't say to her. She will know. And she will not change her life because of the choises you make for yours. (Or at least she shouldn't.) Just think it over: Where do you want to practice? Where is your heart? Maybe you can learn a lot from the assistant teachers. And in senseis training just move and throw and roll and enjoy yourself and aikido?

Sorry for your situation! I know how this hurts and how difficult this is.
But:
Your experience is not uncommon. Thing like this happen. It's not a matter of course that teachers grow all the time.

From the Ashes 04-14-2011 05:05 AM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
I'm posting this anonymously as it's too obvious even without me naming names if I use my own id here. I think I kind of agree with both sides here... It's not about being cocky or thinking you're better than your existing dojo but... You have to do what's best for you in the end.

My old dojo self promote the senior ranks, they have no humbu affiliation as such so it's not a problem for them. But I personally don't consider them worthy of their rank - their senior teacher only rolls on the left, not through injury, just simply because they will automatically swap to the right shoulder in mid roll. They are completely and utterly stagnant in their aikido, and I know for a fact that they have changed nothing in 6 or 7 years - many of my students go and visit the dojo without mentioning me and they get told off for training left and right handed and being too martial or for taking a high fall if a technique is firmly applied. Now I wouldn't consider myself or my students as being too martial.

I was not a teacher with these until I was given a papal letter of ex-communication and told never to darken their doors again. Had that particular incident never happened then I would be there still and I know my aikido would have never developed the way it has, they are scared of change and new ideas - in short, most of the teachers suffer from NIH - Not Invented Here.

My advice, leave and be respectful enough to explain the reasons, or, explain that you feel you must leave and do something of your own. If they're a good organisation, they will allow you to do this and support you, if they are not, you will be better off without them.

I stood up for what I believed in and was kicked out. But you know what? The best thing I've ever done in my life was start my own dojo as I know have a small but pretty dedicated group of like-minded students who I push to go and get out and train with as many teachers as they can with only one proviso - that they come back and show something, at least one thing that they picked up - even if they're a relative beginner.

Regards,
FtA

lbb 04-14-2011 06:24 AM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
When I was 18, I thought my father was a complete idiot.

It's amazing how smart he got by the time I turned 21.

Marc Abrams 04-14-2011 06:48 AM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
As a teacher, I can think of no greater achievement that developing students that surpass me. Of course, I will give them one hell of a run for their money to try and catch up to me....

A student-teacher relationship is a two way street. If you truly feel that you cannot progress then at least have the honesty and integrity to have that conversation with your teacher. Once again, I cannot determine if you are at that "ikkyu stage" full of piss and vinegar, or if you are beyond that stage with a more realistic assessment of the situation.

marc abrams

Hellis 04-14-2011 08:09 AM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
Quote:

Marc Abrams wrote: (Post 281530)
As a teacher, I can think of no greater achievement that developing students that surpass me. Of course, I will give them one hell of a run for their money to try and catch up to me....

marc abrams

Marc

I agree with the above...I had one ```exceptional``` student that was able to go back in time, he re-invented himself as the first British Aikidoka - a unique achievement ..The first UK dan grade for Shotokan Karate sixteen years before it arrived in the UK another unique achievement... He claimed to have represented the British Judo Council (BJC) in international Judo competitition some ten years before the BJC was created, yet another unique achievement
He asked his students if they thought he should grade himself to 7th dan - done - another outstanding achievement.

I am so pleased to see that my old student has gone on to great things, and to achieve higher grade than I am...I am so proud:D :D

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Chris Li 04-14-2011 09:17 AM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
Sometime physical skills deteriorate, for various reasons. Much more common is stagnation - probably more common than most people would like to admit.

It's very difficult for many student to think of their teacher critically, but I don't think it's wrong. Actually, one of the most difficult parts of teaching in this kind of traditional set-up is nobody tells you when you're full of it.

Even if the teacher is perfectly fine there often comes a time when it is time to go - there's nothing wrong with that.

Best,

Chris

Marc Abrams 04-14-2011 11:12 AM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
Quote:

Henry Ellis wrote: (Post 281532)
Marc

I agree with the above...I had one ```exceptional``` student that was able to go back in time, he re-invented himself as the first British Aikidoka - a unique achievement ..The first UK dan grade for Shotokan Karate sixteen years before it arrived in the UK another unique achievement... He claimed to have represented the British Judo Council (BJC) in international Judo competitition some ten years before the BJC was created, yet another unique achievement
He asked his students if they thought he should grade himself to 7th dan - done - another outstanding achievement.

I am so pleased to see that my old student has gone on to great things, and to achieve higher grade than I am...I am so proud:D :D

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Henry:

I am amazed that your former student learned the skills from the super secret martial art of Scumbag Poser Wannabe Ryu :D !

Marc Abrams

sakumeikan 04-14-2011 12:22 PM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
Quote:

Henry Ellis wrote: (Post 281532)
Marc

I agree with the above...I had one ```exceptional``` student that was able to go back in time, he re-invented himself as the first British Aikidoka - a unique achievement ..The first UK dan grade for Shotokan Karate sixteen years before it arrived in the UK another unique achievement... He claimed to have represented the British Judo Council (BJC) in international Judo competitition some ten years before the BJC was created, yet another unique achievement
He asked his students if they thought he should grade himself to 7th dan - done - another outstanding achievement.

I am so pleased to see that my old student has gone on to great things, and to achieve higher grade than I am...I am so proud:D :D

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Dear Henry,
Now now Henry , forgive and forget. Cheers, Joe.

Hellis 04-14-2011 12:45 PM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 281551)
Dear Henry,
Now now Henry , forgive and forget. Cheers, Joe.

Dear Joe

As my long time friend - and you are a man who knows the truth, I would expect your ``full`` support ..nothing less ...I am really dissapointed to see you post that...Are you actually saying that you are happy to see the continued corruption of our proud history and lineage ?????????????

Mr J Poole and the British Aikido Board to this day present Mr Poole in a way that changes all that we know to be the truth.

To promote Mr Poole they have subjected my life of dedication to British Aikido and integrity to defamation....with no apology.

Do you really approve of that Joe - DO YOU REALLY ???!!

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Hellis 04-14-2011 02:01 PM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
Quote:

Marc Abrams wrote: (Post 281549)
Henry:

I am amazed that your former student learned the skills from the super secret martial art of Scumbag Poser Wannabe Ryu :D !

Marc Abrams

Mark

You would be amazed how many are prepared to offer their support to a fraudster, they often say " Jack Poole is a nice man " I am sure that can be said about Peter Sutcliffe the infamous ``Yorkshire Ripper `` - .....I suppose we all have different values and principles.

Henry Ellis

http://henryellis-aikido.blogspot.com/

sakumeikan 04-14-2011 02:25 PM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
Quote:

Henry Ellis wrote: (Post 281553)
Dear Joe

As my long time friend - and you are a man who knows the truth, I would expect your ``full`` support ..nothing less ...I am really dissapointed to see you post that...Are you actually saying that you are happy to see the continued corruption of our proud history and lineage ?????????????

Mr J Poole and the British Aikido Board to this day present Mr Poole in a way that changes all that we know to be the truth.

To promote Mr Poole they have subjected my life of dedication to British Aikido and integrity to defamation....with no apology.

Do you really approve of that Joe - DO YOU REALLY ???!!

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Henry,
Old friend you know I like a bit of banter.You know where I stand on this issue of lineage. Sorry if you misinterpreted my weak attempt at humour.I also know you speak the truth about this particular episode.
Cheers, Joe

Hellis 04-14-2011 03:36 PM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 281560)
Henry,
Old friend you know I like a bit of banter.You know where I stand on this issue of lineage. Sorry if you misinterpreted my weak attempt at humour.I also know you speak the truth about this particular episode.
Cheers, Joe

Joe

My old friend, I did bite as I have been betrayed so many times, I mean no disrespect to you my friend .. I am so detirmined to preserve the true history and lineage that I do jump on those that support that old crap.

Joe, my son has a big - big fight on July 2nd at Portsmouth UK against a top European fighter...I would like you to be my guest ringside.

Henry Ellis

Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Hellis 04-14-2011 03:42 PM

Re: What to do - Telling sensei their waza isn't good any more
 
Joe Curran

Joe I apologise for what I thought, more than what I wrote.
I really did bite on this one .
Forgive me

Henry Ellis
Ellis Aikido
http://henryellis-aikido.blogspot.com/


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