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efredeluces 06-02-2002 09:05 PM

kotegaishi
 
Our dojo now switch from traditional to modern arts and when my sensei demonstrated kotegaishi It gave me reasons to research on this.

the traditional art is leading you uke first in a circular way making him face opposite when he attacks distracting the balance then applying the pin by twisting opposite his balance.

the modern art is applied by moving backward applying an almost downward parry to the hand using unbendable arms then applying the pin only this time not twisting but forward the opponent while pulling him towards you.

my question is, which is most effective ? and are there any other versions of the same art ?

thanks.

Quote:

FROM strength learn gentleness THRU gentleness achieve strength.

PeterR 06-02-2002 09:27 PM

I am curious what you mean by switching from traditional to modern.

Both versions can work equally well.

Greg Jennings 06-02-2002 11:25 PM

Re: kotegaishi
 
Quote:

Originally posted by efredeluces
my question is, which is most effective ? and are there any other versions of the same art ?

I typically don't like to get in the position of pulling my partner. I especially don't like to pull them toward me. It's something of a bad position to be in from a tactical perspective.

There are a great many variations of kotegaeshi. My particular favorite is to keep uke's hand very low to keep him off balance to his front/rear. Then I stop the momentum of his upper body by taking the slack out of the connection. Uke's body pivots around his center of mass and his feet therefore run out from under him.

Some of my friends named this "The Montgomery Plop" variation.

Best Regards,

SeiserL 06-03-2002 09:05 AM

There are probably as many way to apply waza as there are people and situations. We (Tenshinkai Aikido) tend to practice both the full tenkan movement and the faster one you mentioned. Actually, we sometime even enter and blend fast so we can use their forward momemtum to apply ura and omote. We do tend to provide a slight lead/pull to facilitate the unbalancing and to give their mind a little something to think about (falling).

IMHO, the effectiveness has more to do with you, your training, and the situation than the waza.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

Napoleon 06-04-2002 07:26 AM

In my dojo, we alter the technique depending on the situation; kote-gaeshi has been practiced where I train against knife attacks in conjunction with other techniques and atemi, and when a knife is involved, there is never a leading-uke motion, it's always done by distancing uke's hand from his body and, I suppose, applying the throw by simply twisting his wrist outwards and downwards to unbalance him, though we often use some small movements in the back leg to break his balance further. When no knife is used, we usually use the more textbook, flashy, impressive method :)

Peter Goldsbury 06-04-2002 08:26 AM

Mr Nixon,

Have you ever trained with Eric Beake? Eric and I used to train together in the old Ryushinkan in Albany Street, London, and it was Eric who first emphasised (to me) the importace of seeing kote-gaeshi as a knife attack, probably with an attacker who will not attack and simply stand there to allow the technique to work.

With kote-gaeshi, especially done as an 'ura' technique, you always need to get into a position to do atemi. The interesting question is where the straight atemi is most effective. Any ideas?

Best regards,

Don_Modesto 06-04-2002 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury With kote-gaeshi, especially done as an 'ura' technique, you always need to get into a position to do atemi. The interesting question is where the straight atemi is most effective. Any ideas?
Are you asking us?

This reminds me of the way the patrician State Department language teacher Earl Stevick characterized most language classes: "Say something so I can tell you how well you said it." I think Goldsbury Sensei must have finished checking the pile of papers on his desk and is now ready for some comic relief.

Bearing in mind Nietzsche's admonition that the attraction to education would be small indeed if we didn't have to overcome so much shame along the way, I'll report the fruits of my own investigations knowing 1) that Peter is a gentleman, and 2) that his keyboard won't convey guffaws to the distraction of the forum.

Ahem.

With the caveat that "straight atemi" hints at trick question--why specify straight?--I'll venture that my own rule of thumb is to apply ATEMI before, during, and sometimes after the attack.

Before the attack, the ATEMI--here, I suppose it would be a "straight" ATEMI--functions as a distractor. I direct it between his eyes with my right hand if he's attacking with his right hand. It disrupts his breathing, breaks his momentum (and usually balance as well) and redirects his gaze allowing me time to situate my hand on his arm--whether or not I hit him.

During the attack, I like to pop UKE as he breaks the corner of my TENKAN. This is an uppercut. Indeed, I like an ATEMI at all transitions--breaking a pivot, going under arms, etc. If he has closed on me, I throw a front leg front kick into his groin and pop him again. Again, during training, I don't actually make contact.

After he hits the ground, I may jab him once in the ribs if I've missed my timing rolling him over and he does the curl up into rigor motis routine. Patty Saotome demonstrated a very nice ATEMI on me once when I was resisting in this position; she drove her thumb into the recess behind my ear and I rolled right over. Short, but effective.

"The interesting question is where the straight atemi is most effective."

This sentence throws me. "Straight", I've already mentioned; and then there's "most". If he knocks himself out running into my first ATEMI, then that was most effective, eh what?

Over to you, Peter.

Napoleon 06-04-2002 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
Mr Nixon,

Have you ever trained with Eric Beake? Eric and I used to train together in the old Ryushinkan in Albany Street, London, and it was Eric who first emphasised (to me) the importace of seeing kote-gaeshi as a knife attack, probably with an attacker who will not attack and simply stand there to allow the technique to work.

It's difficult to see whether you're being sarcastic, i.e. a bit of a twat, or are genuinely interested in what I said. If the latter is true, the way we perform kote-gaeshi in my club against a knife doesn't rely on the attacker being willing to be taken down; you use the movement of the legs to assist the technique at speed in order to force uke to the floor, applying a pin once he's there.
If, however, you were in fact being a sarcastic wanker, then I suggest using more speed than that of a disabled turtle in techniques. Ahem indeed.

Peter Goldsbury 06-04-2002 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury


With kote-gaeshi, especially done as an 'ura' technique, you always need to get into a position to do atemi. The interesting question is where the straight atemi is most effective. Any ideas?

Best regards,

Hello Don,

Here are a couple more questions as grist to the mill.

1. I have seen many kotegaeshi techniques where the atemi focuses on the attacking hand or arm. How do you feel about this? (And 'straight' was merely meant to indicate timing rther than direction: it comes at the same time as the attack).

2. An eminent sensei once taught me that the taisabaki for kotegaeshi and irimi-nage should be similar. This is not what the late Doshu used to do, by the way. Our Shodokan friend Peter Rehse said somewhere that irimi-nage was an atemi technique. I think he is right, but would you say the same for kotegaeshi?

Background: the way O Sensei does kotegaeshi in 'Budo Renshu'.

And now back to the piles of paper on my desk...

Best regards,

Peter Goldsbury 06-04-2002 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Napoleon

It's difficult to see whether you're being sarcastic, i.e. a bit of a twat, or are genuinely interested in what I said. If the latter is true, the way we perform kote-gaeshi in my club against a knife doesn't rely on the attacker being willing to be taken down; you use the movement of the legs to assist the technique at speed in order to force uke to the floor, applying a pin once he's there.
If, however, you were in fact being a sarcastic wanker, then I suggest using more speed than that of a disabled turtle in techniques. Ahem indeed.

Mr Nixon,

My question was a straighforward, and friendly, question about the way a friend of mine used to do a technique, plus a question as to whether you knew him, since, like I used to do, you train in the UK.

Whether you respond to the question in the spirit it was asked is, of course, up to you. But if you look at my other posts on this and other bulletin boards, I hope you will agree that I think sarcasm is inappropriate in a discussion forum.

Yours sincerely,

PeterR 06-04-2002 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
Our Shodokan friend Peter Rehse said somewhere that irimi-nage was an atemi technique. I think he is right, but would you say the same for kotegaeshi?
Staying clear of this one for a bit. Very interesting premise. I will only say that Tomiki classed techniques into basic groups based on their dominant feature but I would think it incorrect to say that it was their only feature. I think that kotegaishi without kuzushi is very difficult to accomplish - but you don't need to apply atemi to effect that.

akiy 06-04-2002 10:06 PM

Hi Albert,

Please be aware that the first rule of posting here at the AikiWeb Forums is "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forums members with respect." You language and manner in responding to Peter Goldsbury was not very respectful and inappropriate in these Forums. I'll ask you to please be careful in the future in the manner in which you respond here.

Regards,

-- Jun

Don_Modesto 06-05-2002 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
1. I have seen many kotegaeshi techniques where the atemi focuses on the attacking hand or arm. How do you feel about this? (And 'straight' was merely meant to indicate timing rther than direction: it comes at the same time as the attack).

2. An eminent sensei once taught me that the taisabaki for kotegaeshi and irimi-nage should be similar. This is not what the late Doshu used to do, by the way. Our Shodokan friend Peter Rehse said somewhere that irimi-nage was an atemi technique. I think he is right, but would you say the same for kotegaeshi?

3. Background: the way O Sensei does kotegaeshi in 'Budo Renshu'.,

I'd guess that these are more suggestions than questions so I'll be thinking of them next time I'm dodging TSUKI or doing IRIMI NAGE. For the sake of discussion, though:

1. Hadn't thought of it. I imagine a strike inducing that heart-cringing, fire up the arm kind of pain which takes your breath away would provide a very tidy distraction for NAGE. I think I'd want to do it with my elbow, though, rather than try to get a knuckle accurately into metatarsals in such proximity to UKE's own knucles. A good shot to the soft parts of forearm or upper arm (or funny bone) would debilitate, too, I should think.

2. As regards TAISABAKE, the way I do the two, I'd have to go deeper on KOTEGAESHI to make them similar. Will try it.

As regards IRIMINAGE as ATEMI, um, er...I hadn't thought of that either. This might partly be because of the model to which I'm aspiring to emulate at the moment. Both Ikeda Hiroshi and Mary Heini do this wonderful version where UKE basically walks his legs out from under him/herself with very little or none of the standard clotheslining usually done with this technique. I can certainly see it as ATEMI, though. Actually, as many times as my KOTEGAESHI has failed I tend to regard that IN THE MAIN as ATEMI. Unfortunately, I tend to regard NIKYO through YONKYO that way, too.

3. Curling UKE's hand tightly into itself being the Budo version? At a Kawabe DR seminar in NY last year that gentleman showed me to align my knuckles with UKE's and concentrate on the forearm rather than the
hand, noting laconically: "Kote is kote and wrist is wrist".

(Albert! It's worse than sarcasm--it's homework! Sheesh!)

(Thanks, Peter.)

Bruce Baker 06-05-2002 07:53 PM

Say what?
 
Are we talking about a wrist twist, or are we argueing on the moot court bench about tomatoes or to-my-toes?

I was reviewing some of my Wally Jay jujitsu, and although he doesn't call it kotegaeshi the movement activates the same response within the same rotational movements ... only with fingers instead of across the back of the hand.

Question is ... what balance does the opponent have which will allow you to produce the desired result? I think we all agree that all techniques depend on distraction, balance, and using the position of your opponent to your advantage. So whether you pull, push, distract, or create an opening for kotegaeshi, there must be an opening for it to make it happen.

Sometimes I think you guys start to lose all common sense? It shouldn't matter if the movement is in Aikido, jujitsu, karate, or even the Defendo courses of WWI, if it works then it is useful by whatever method it takes to get there, or whatever it is called.

De-fend-O? Yeah, another form of jujitsu taught by a man who learned pressure points and jujitsu in the early 1900s.

There may or may not be some videos about.

jk 06-05-2002 10:12 PM

Oh great, we get homework too...
 
<a raised hand from the back of the class>

Professor Goldsbury,

After leafing through a copy of "Budo Training in Aikido" (English translation of "Budo Renshu"), I seemed to have missed the kotegaeshi portion...would you mind pointing out which technique # it's under?

Regards,

efredeluces 06-06-2002 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PeterR
I am curious what you mean by switching from traditional to modern.

Both versions can work equally well.

:p

Hello, previously we study using traditional techniques, you know the ones featured in the book dymanic sphere. now we have a new sensei were switching to a more modern versions were we use direct applications.

I'm really more concern about the effectivity of the two versions coz my nephew and I tested both with a knife & ice pick. both were successful with a knife but the newer seem a little akward to use with a longer weapon as it the weapon tend to penetrate the front knee of nage.

Happy training ...

PeterR 06-06-2002 01:29 AM

Hi Elmer;

I asked because I consider the more direct methods to be the older (traditional) way. In one sense it is unfortunate that you have to change sensei but in another you have a good chance to see another way of doing things.

I suspect you felt a little akward because its new but also even the more "direct" methods require you to move off-line. Your distancing might not be quite right either - experiment a bit. Try to use something a little less hairy than an ice-pick. Visions of pierced knee-caps.

Budo Renshu is traditional. Dynamic Sphere is - well the drawings are artfully done.
Quote:

Originally posted by efredeluces

:p

Hello, previously we study using traditional techniques, you know the ones featured in the book dymanic sphere. now we have a new sensei were switching to a more modern versions were we use direct applications.

I'm really more concern about the effectivity of the two versions coz my nephew and I tested both with a knife & ice pick. both were successful with a knife but the newer seem a little akward to use with a longer weapon as it the weapon tend to penetrate the front knee of nage.

Happy training ...


efredeluces 06-06-2002 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PeterR
Hi Elmer;

I asked because I consider the more direct methods to be the older (traditional) way. In one sense it is unfortunate that you have to change sensei but in another you have a good chance to see another way of doing things.

I suspect you felt a little akward because its new but also even the more "direct" methods require you to move off-line. Your distancing might not be quite right either - experiment a bit. Try to use something a little less hairy than an ice-pick. Visions of pierced knee-caps.

Budo Renshu is traditional. Dynamic Sphere is - well the drawings are artfully done.

:)Hello again,

Thanks, you might be right I still need to get more adopt to this new techniques. Guest I've gotten used to the previous that its almost an instinct when I move. We practiced with icepick coz its the ussual weapon that we see here but well who wants pierce knees he he guest well have to use the old wooden knives for the next practice.

Thanks and have a nice day..

Quote:

truthfullness in practice does not give one the courage to fight but the knowledge to avoid troubles.

Erik 06-06-2002 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by efredeluces
Hello, previously we study using traditional techniques, you know the ones featured in the book dymanic sphere. now we have a new sensei were switching to a more modern versions were we use direct applications.
I think I'm with Peter on this one. I'm no Aikido history expert, and it's been some time since I opened the Dynamic Sphere, but my take on the large circular movements are that they are the more modern approach. I would argue, not too strenuously though, that the first Doshu probably sent things down this path as much as anyone. May the history minded and more knowledgeable on this topic correct me.

efredeluces 06-06-2002 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Erik


I think I'm with Peter on this one. I'm no Aikido history expert, and it's been some time since I opened the Dynamic Sphere, but my take on the large circular movements are that they are the more modern approach. I would argue, not too strenuously though, that the first Doshu probably sent things down this path as much as anyone. May the history minded and more knowledgeable on this topic correct me.

:p Hi! I'm not also much with history but one of my previous sensei told me that we are actually learning the more traditional arts now than what we previously learn but somehow I appreciate knowing both versions coz now I can somehow create my own or I think I can somehow he he he.

I'm just missing the old randori, taigi and weapon stuffs coz now we don't get much of it.

Happy training ....

Quote:

One's acquisition knowledge does not make one great but makes one realized that he has much to learn in life.

Peter Goldsbury 06-06-2002 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jk
<a raised hand from the back of the class>

Professor Goldsbury,

After leafing through a copy of "Budo Training in Aikido" (English translation of "Budo Renshu"), I seemed to have missed the kotegaeshi portion...would you mind pointing out which technique # it's under?

Regards,

Mr Kuo,

Yes, you are right. I used Budo Renshu as a preparation for Aiki Expo and clearly confused kote-gaeshi with other techniques I taught which do appear in the book. Many apologies.

The irimi I had in mind in a reply to Don Modesto is when you take uke's other, non-attacking, hand. This would be very unwise in a knife attack, but it is a good irimi exericse. The entering movement is very deep, but is outward-turning (O). With this movement, you can take either hand.

Best regards,

efredeluces 06-11-2002 01:06 AM

:) Professor Goldsbury

May I ask something, I know its out of the topic. is it allright for a practitioner to build a small dojo so that I can practice together with my family who are in to it also ?

I know there are rules in doing this I'm just not totally familiar with it.

Regards..


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