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future sandwich 03-16-2011 11:34 PM

irimi nage spinning
 
hi all, here's a question of form; keep in mind this is for a relative beginner (2nd kyu) so I'd rather have some steps to try out than a general "aikido has no form!" answer.

Let's say you're doing irimi nage from shomen uchi. You have completed the initial irimi tenkan and have brought uke in. At this point if they are standing up you could step through with the leg closest to them and complete the throw. However if they are not standing up or have brought a lot of energy, you want to keep turning.

This is the point where things tend to get messy for me. I can pivot on my feet to gain another 180 degrees of rotation but beyond that i'm lost. Stepping forward with the now back foot seems impossible because uke is generally stumbling around in your way, and stepping back with your now front foot is means tugging them ungracefully back off the natural axis of rotation.

How do you continue the irimi nage rotation past the initial irimi tenkan? In summary the steps I'm using are
1. irimi tenkan
2. pivot 180
3. ???

how do you recommend continuing and how do you manage the axis of rotation in your irimi nage?

James Edwards 03-17-2011 12:26 AM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
I guess the next step is an ushiro-tenkan/tenshin/stepping back (whatever you want to call it) movement? Keeping your attitude forward and controlling uke to go towards you, you should be in a good place to throw.

I find it easier to control the direction of uke's movement by sticking and being as close to them as possible. Make sure that you apply kuzushi at all times as well.

future sandwich 03-17-2011 12:36 AM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
Thanks James, I believe that's what I'm working at but I find that at the point where I need to step back, uke's momentum is usually going across my body rather that towards me, so the tenshin necessarily involves awkwardly yanking them back with me in order to keep them close to my center.

It also doesn't feel like that movement coincides with the axis of rotation up to that point.

Perhaps this is just a matter of practicing more tenshin movements.

grondahl 03-17-2011 02:44 AM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
I think that the practice of tai no henko in ki no nagare should solve this problem.

Flintstone 03-17-2011 04:04 AM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
Quote:

Justin Lorenzon wrote: (Post 279353)
Let's say you're doing irimi nage from shomen uchi. You have completed the initial irimi tenkan and have brought uke in. At this point if they are standing up you could step through with the leg closest to them and complete the throw. However if they are not standing up or have brought a lot of energy, you want to keep turning.

Why should uke stand up when he can counter from down there?

Pauliina Lievonen 03-17-2011 04:57 AM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
Quote:

Alejandro Villanueva wrote: (Post 279363)
Why should uke stand up when he can counter from down there?

Maybe simply because you're practising the specific scenario where uke is standing up? Since we can't practice all possible outcomes at once?

Pauliina

Pauliina Lievonen 03-17-2011 05:09 AM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
Quote:

Justin Lorenzon wrote: (Post 279353)
how do you recommend continuing and how do you manage the axis of rotation in your irimi nage?

Hi Justin,

I suspect your problem might not be in the steps but in the timing of them, and possibly in getting off your own center line as well.

After the first 180 degree turn, it's very very common to let uke continue a little bit too far along the turn before attempting to throw. Then the solution to that is sought in turning even further, but that leads to the kinds of problems you describe.

Try throwing uke a little bit earlier, even a bit too early for where you feel you should throw. If you time it right, ukes feet are still travelling forwards under your throwing arm and uke throws themselves.

The other thing to pay attention to is not letting your front hand get past your center line. If you do the kind of iriminage where uke's head is on your shoulder, that hand obviously is a little bit on the side of that. But your front hand can be more in the center. If you let it travel too far aside it will be hard to reverse direction for the throw regardless of how many times you turn.

Pauliina

Dazzler 03-17-2011 05:35 AM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
Quote:

Justin Lorenzon wrote: (Post 279353)
hi all, here's a question of form; keep in mind this is for a relative beginner (2nd kyu) so I'd rather have some steps to try out than a general "aikido has no form!" answer.

Let's say you're doing irimi nage from shomen uchi. You have completed the initial irimi tenkan and have brought uke in. At this point if they are standing up you could step through with the leg closest to them and complete the throw. However if they are not standing up or have brought a lot of energy, you want to keep turning.

This is the point where things tend to get messy for me. I can pivot on my feet to gain another 180 degrees of rotation but beyond that i'm lost. Stepping forward with the now back foot seems impossible because uke is generally stumbling around in your way, and stepping back with your now front foot is means tugging them ungracefully back off the natural axis of rotation.

How do you continue the irimi nage rotation past the initial irimi tenkan? In summary the steps I'm using are
1. irimi tenkan
2. pivot 180
3. ???

how do you recommend continuing and how do you manage the axis of rotation in your irimi nage?

Well justin, a good question with many levels of answer very much depending on the persons level of Aikido at the time of the answer...which is very much a moving feast as Aikido knowledge grows.

You've described a fairly common attack which should have a fairly common response...however the diversity of Aikido styles means you are going to get many responses...some will help...some won't.

You are talking about using tenkan ...this again will vary from huge tenkans slapping uke to the mat then bringing him all the way up again and projecting him out over a lead leg...to a simple posture break from the rear post irimi with a takedown to 3rd point.

If your experience is just within one 'flavour' of Aikido then you may have started to see the range of variations...if you haven't then it may seem almost sacriligious that another group may perform a beloved technique differently.

Anyway...your question was fairly specific and starts from the point where you've entered behind Uke and completed the 'irimi' part of your work.

So now you are looking to tenkan.

So first a question to make you think.

You are safetly behind your uke...you have control of his head ...if youve used irimi correctly you may have drawn him back and started to compress his spine thus restricting his movements a little.

So why do you actually need to tenkan?...do it on your own, independent of uke, and you break the connection you've achieved, ...as something you have to do for the sake of it makes little sense to me.

So I'll offer that you use tenkan when uke turns towards you to continue 'the fight'. So instead of imposing a movement on uke and forcing him around...instead use his movements against him ...make yourself the centre of the circle ...or the axis (like your use of this word btw) and let uke work around on the outside of the circle as he attempts to come for you. The size of the circle is up to you...but stay behind his head..its the safest place to be.

Now as he comes around generating momentum timing is critical, your tenkan should match ukes movement and you look to control his head in order that..

1. His head stays with you. his legs continue thus breaking his axis
2. his movement takes him past your tenkaning leg thus maintaining a safe Kamae for you...and preventing a strike to your 'downstairs' when you complete the throw.

So..in a 'nutshell'

* don't force a tenkan on uke ...blend your tenkan with his moves
* let his momentum take his legs past his head - destroy his shisei while keeping your own.

As I say these comments come from where I am now....some will see heresy...others will smile benevolently and remember when they thought the same before moving on to the next level.

Hope theres something here that may help.

Cheers

D

Dazzler 03-17-2011 05:36 AM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
Quote:

Pauliina Lievonen wrote: (Post 279367)
Hi Justin,

I suspect your problem might not be in the steps but in the timing of them, and possibly in getting off your own center line as well.

After the first 180 degree turn, it's very very common to let uke continue a little bit too far along the turn before attempting to throw. Then the solution to that is sought in turning even further, but that leads to the kinds of problems you describe.

Try throwing uke a little bit earlier, even a bit too early for where you feel you should throw. If you time it right, ukes feet are still travelling forwards under your throwing arm and uke throws themselves.

The other thing to pay attention to is not letting your front hand get past your center line. If you do the kind of iriminage where uke's head is on your shoulder, that hand obviously is a little bit on the side of that. But your front hand can be more in the center. If you let it travel too far aside it will be hard to reverse direction for the throw regardless of how many times you turn.

Pauliina

Good points on centre and timing.

sorokod 03-17-2011 05:59 AM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
Quote:

Alejandro Villanueva wrote: (Post 279363)
Why should uke stand up when he can counter from down there?

Alejandro, you are a party pooper :-)

Flintstone 03-17-2011 06:15 AM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 279372)
Alejandro, you are a party pooper :-)

I know, I know. But I know you won't put your uke down there too...

sakumeikan 03-17-2011 06:55 AM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
Quote:

Alejandro Villanueva wrote: (Post 279363)
Why should uke stand up when he can counter from down there?

Dear Alejandro,
If uke is bent over and Tori is behind uke how does Uke counter attack?Apart from that if Uke was trying to counter why not just guide his head into the tatami [in the nicest possible way]? This I think would divert Ukes intent to counter since Uke would be to busy trying to maintain a classic profile.I would suggest it is bit difficult to counter anybody when your noggin is potentially ready to be harmonising with the ground/tatami.
cheers, Joe.

Carsten Möllering 03-17-2011 07:16 AM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
There are a lot of different understandings of the same technique, just like Daren stated.

When we do irimi nage there is just irimi - tenkan - 180° pivot on both legs (called henka in our terms). uke is guided in a way that he can be thrown from this position.

Just like Alejandro said we think it to be important to control uke in a way so that he can't try a take down from his lower position. We think that otherwise most people who are not used to aikido ukemi would try to attack the legs of tori when offered such a nice opportunity.
So we control uke, an when more advanced we don't bring him down so much but just do a little kuzushi and then guide him.

Jonathan Guzzo 03-17-2011 09:50 AM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
This is interesting. At our dojo, we don't pivot after irimi. We snug uke's head to our shoulder and drop our forward foot back at 90 degrees. Then we step straight through with the same foot. When it's done well, it's like dropping into a deep, dark hole.

The 180 turn is amazing, but I can never seem to carry it off. Uke often ends up spinning out. Indeed, when I take ukemi from someone executing iriminage with a 180, I often feel that I get my balance back and can reverse. I imagine that's often an illusory feeling.

Flintstone 03-17-2011 10:53 AM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
I for myself don't bring uke down. I secure his head on my shoulder and pivot (90º, 180º, don't really care) or not, irimi with the back foot or not, and throw down. Or that's what I think I've been taught.

If I try to bring uke down without securing his head tightly to my shoulder, my uke will attack my legs. But maybe I just don't do that particular variation right, so let the fault lay on me ;)

Ron Tisdale 03-17-2011 11:09 AM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
(shoot, I told myself I wouldn't post in these threads) I like Pauliina's and Daren's posts. To add a physical reference point, if Uke's head is not between your shoulders you probably have given them back too much balance/ let them too far outside your center.

This may sound stupid not knowing what style you practice or why...but

1) Take a look at Gozo Shioda's basic form of shomen uchi Irimi-nage ni in any of his texts. Break the waza down into that simple form...maintaining your posture, breaking uke's posture. Use movements of irimi (shuffle enter), tenkan (pivot without letting uke's head go past your back shoulder), body change (turn on the balls of the feet, from weight on knee closest to uke to weight on the other kneee), body change back with atemi.

2) Then look at many of the "flowing styles" of aikido and how they do it. Then try to take 1) and begin merging it with 2) and see what you discover. Its a fun ride...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale 03-17-2011 11:16 AM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
Oh, during all of this notice where uke's head is relative to his feet, and at what points you feel like you are sinking and at what points *you* feel like *you* are rising will also be good. Remember that if *you* are connected uke sinks with *you*, and rises with *you*. And I dont necessarily mean you excessively bending your knees or jumping in a noticable way.

Best again,
Ron (grrrrr...back to not posting ... sigh)

Mark Freeman 03-17-2011 12:39 PM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 279406)
Oh, during all of this notice where uke's head is relative to his feet, and at what points you feel like you are sinking and at what points *you* feel like *you* are rising will also be good. Remember that if *you* are connected uke sinks with *you*, and rises with *you*. And I dont necessarily mean you excessively bending your knees or jumping in a noticable way.

Best again,
Ron (grrrrr...back to not posting ... sigh)

Hi Ron,

where have you been for so long? this place has missed your gentlemanly presence. Good to see you posting again.

I don't have anything to add to the technical discussion being had, as my question to the OP is always, if you have a technical issue, why not ask your teacher at the time? They can actually see what is needed to change what is happening. How do we know if the OP is describing the issue correctly?

Interesting to see everyones individual take on this exercise though.

regards

Mark (already missing Ron's bracketed by-lines;) )

Ron Tisdale 03-17-2011 02:19 PM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
Hey Mark, good to read you as always! Everyone has been so nice with me sticking my nose back into the pot!

I hear you on the "ask Sensei" bit. BUT...it never hurts to get out side the "Sensei Box" and ask around too. Just so's you know in his house, his way.

Honestly, aikido, internal, blah blah is a THINKING man's game. If you aren't willing to do the mental work to figure things out, OFF and ON the mat, I have a feeling you are rather unusual if you "get" it. So a little out of class research once you reach a certain level has been worth it to me...in spades! I haven't figured it out yet, but the level of understanding and openess does seem to help the overall level grow.

Best,
Ron
(not training at the moment and for some time now, so just throw this in the bit bucket if it don't float yer boat)

Insane Duane 03-17-2011 05:32 PM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
I've seen many dojo's do Iriminage Ura many different ways. I suggest asking your sensei.

The problems I have seen doing this have been:

1) Improper distance (gap between uke and nage(I prefer the "plant the uke's head to my shoulder method))

2) Timing (nage is going to fast or too slow)

3) kuzushi (Usually giving the uke back his balance right before the throw)

future sandwich 03-17-2011 08:29 PM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
Thanks everyone, this thread is a goldmine for me! Technical discussions here are amazing.

Quote:

Pauliina Lievonen wrote: (Post 279367)
I suspect your problem might not be in the steps but in the timing of them, and possibly in getting off your own center line as well.

After the first 180 degree turn, it's very very common to let uke continue a little bit too far along the turn before attempting to throw. Then the solution to that is sought in turning even further, but that leads to the kinds of problems you describe.

This was definitely a problem I wrestled with for a while Pauliina and while I can hardly say I'm immune to it now, I'm certainly very aware of it.

It is certainly possible to throw from a single tenkan or as in some old videos of OSensei, with barely a turn at all. However, assuming that a continuous rotation is a valid option (say uke is remaining hunched over perhaps, all sorts of things happen when someone is unbalanced and stumbling around), and given that I've seen and received irimi nage including even 360 degrees of turn, I'd like to understand it but am stumped as to how to continue the turn well. Stepping forward at the point I mention is moving against uke, back requires pulling uke, and I'd like to avoid a shuffle.

Quote:

Daren Sims wrote: (Post 279369)
If your experience is just within one 'flavour' of Aikido then you may have started to see the range of variations...if you haven't then it may seem almost sacriligious that another group may perform a beloved technique differently.

As a beginner I remember coming from a Ki Society-influenced aikikai dojo and being utterly scandalized when I practiced katate dori kokyu ho at an Iwama style dojo! Yes the variations are innumerable, but I have seen this very rotational irimi nage performed once or twice and would love to be able to understand it.

Quote:

Daren Sims wrote: (Post 279369)
So I'll offer that you use tenkan when uke turns towards you to continue 'the fight'. So instead of imposing a movement on uke and forcing him around...instead use his movements against him
* don't force a tenkan on uke ...blend your tenkan with his moves
* let his momentum take his legs past his head - destroy his shisei while keeping your own.

This I think is a real key; not imposing a movement on uke but performing it when uke continues to come at your center. It rings very true and I am very excited to take it to the mat.

Quote:

Jonathan Guzzo wrote: (Post 279396)
This is interesting. At our dojo, we don't pivot after irimi. We snug uke's head to our shoulder and drop our forward foot back at 90 degrees. Then we step straight through with the same foot. When it's done well, it's like dropping into a deep, dark hole.

The 180 turn is amazing, but I can never seem to carry it off. Uke often ends up spinning out. Indeed, when I take ukemi from someone executing iriminage with a 180, I often feel that I get my balance back and can reverse. I imagine that's often an illusory feeling.

I love ukemi to the throw you mention above! I have also received the 180+ degree one and I can assure you that at no point did I feel like I was at all close to regaining my balance. In fact that's one of the things I'm searching for; when I experienced this longer throw the rotation I was going under was smooth and consistent and unrelenting - when I try and perform it it ends up being quite jerky at the point I've described.

Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 279404)
1) Take a look at Gozo Shioda's basic form of shomen uchi Irimi-nage ni in any of his texts. Break the waza down into that simple form...maintaining your posture, breaking uke's posture. Use movements of irimi (shuffle enter), tenkan (pivot without letting uke's head go past your back shoulder), body change (turn on the balls of the feet, from weight on knee closest to uke to weight on the other kneee), body change back with atemi.

If I'm looking at the same thing, this is the shorter version which I'm at least theoretically comfortable with.

Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 279406)
Oh, during all of this notice where uke's head is relative to his feet, and at what points you feel like you are sinking and at what points *you* feel like *you* are rising will also be good. Remember that if *you* are connected uke sinks with *you*, and rises with *you*. And I dont necessarily mean you excessively bending your knees or jumping in a noticable way.

This is great! Another thing I'm excited about trying out on the mat.

Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote: (Post 279414)
if you have a technical issue, why not ask your teacher at the time? They can actually see what is needed to change what is happening. How do we know if the OP is describing the issue correctly?

A very good point; unfortunately I'm in Cambodia outside the capital, with only intermittent access to a real teacher, and with way more questions that fit within my limited sensei-time.

I also wanted to add something that a user sent me regarding this which I've found to be really interesting; he reminded me to focus on unbalancing uke to the rear. I find this is easy to forget as you appear to lead uke around nose first, but is the essential nature of the kuzushi in irimi nage right from the first motion. I'm looking forward to getting back to the dojo with all of this!

Janet Rosen 03-17-2011 09:42 PM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 279427)
(not training at the moment and for some time now, so just throw this in the bit bucket if it don't float yer boat)

You are most welcome to dock your boat here anytime :D

sorokod 03-18-2011 01:24 PM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
A potential source of inspiration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYmZPdSyqcQ

grondahl 03-18-2011 05:08 PM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
Thank you David. Fantastic clip.

But one should support Aikido Journal and buy it from:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/catalog...ails?code=os06

sorokod 03-18-2011 05:29 PM

Re: irimi nage spinning
 
Absolutely, here is a link to the official promo

http://www.aikidojournal.com/video/video_14.mpg


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