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chadsieger 05-28-2002 10:32 PM

Train in Aikido for Martial Arts
 
To add to the discussion, Aikido techniques are usually not designed to be imitated on the "street." Rather, the techniques are simply designed for the purpose of teaching you the martial arts. Depending on which technique is in question, different aspects of the martial arts are practiced. Extension, softness, circles,
and sensitivity are some of the qualities that can be highlighted in any particular technique. When practiced correctly, one will grow beyond simple response techniques, and move to an area beyond simply fighting. Then the atemi that far too many schools swear by becomes a superficial hindrance.
In reality, the essence of the martial arts involves stability in the nage (one executing technique) to create a dramatic change in the uke (attacker/loser). Atemis are used to disrupt the uke long enough to get his/her balance/ki/chi/center, which would then neutralize the attack. Perhaps you will notice that you feel slightly less stable when your arm is extended for a
punch or your leg for a kick. That is why in Aikido it is crucial never to expose yourself, or in other words, give your opponent an opportunity to "take" your center. An atemi will create an undesirable unstability not only in your opponent, but also in yourself.
Every single technique in Aikido requires a spiritual atemi. Every single technique in Aikido requires a ki atemi. And yes, some of the inside moves, which are therefore more dangerous, do in fact require a physical atemi. So, O'Sensei was correct when saying that certain techniques do require atemi. He did not say however, to use atemis to practice Aikido. The purpose
of training with Aikido techniques is to teach you the feeling of budo. "Learn and forget." Using atemis on the mat degrade the nourishment. Similar to frying food.
I'm not saying strikes have no place in budo. Quite to contrary. However, at O'Sensei's skill level his true budo strike would look far beyond our comprehension.
Regardless, learn Aikido, always use it in defense, and your ki will conquer alone!

PeterR 05-28-2002 11:14 PM

Cough cough.

shihonage 05-28-2002 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chadsieger
Using atemis on the mat degrade the nourishment. Similar to frying food.

Watch it buddy, you just offended my food of choice.

Burgers.

Greg Jennings 05-28-2002 11:52 PM

Hack, choke, cough...

I guess opinions vary...

Sincerely,

chadsieger 05-29-2002 12:54 AM

I welcome all to respond
 
I am eager to hear the opinions and questions of others. However, "cough, cough" leaves little to interpret. So, please feel free to express yourself without fear.

Thanks for reading!

Largo 05-29-2002 01:35 AM

You have a lot of interesting points. I would however like to add my opinion that some people seem too quick to dismiss atemi. When you consider how muay thai and kyokushin kai atemi regularly break arms and legs, you realize that these aren't things to scoff at. Think of it like "know your enemy".

jk 05-29-2002 04:06 AM

Spiritual atemi? Ki atemi? Please enlightened the great unwashed...

Regards,

Greg Jennings 05-29-2002 07:05 AM

Look Chad,

It's not a good thing to join a forum and start a thread telling all the members how to train.

In fact, it's a worthless waste of Internet bandwidth.

If you've got a question, then ask.

If you have a closely held belief about something that seems to run counter to the memberships' general feeling, then post a short, leading question.

But if you go into a forum and make long, rambling posts in the form of statements of fact, especially about controversial topics, go ahead and put your asbestos fire suit on.

Let me be blunt...NO ONE has the market on truth cornered even if we could define "truth".

Sincerely,

Misogi-no-Gyo 05-29-2002 09:38 AM

The "truth" is in there.
 
Quote:

Let me be blunt...NO ONE has the market on truth cornered even if we could define "truth".
(Mr. Jennings) Hmmm, interesting point... Since everyone is being blunt in this thread, I thought I would play a bit of Devil's advocate with you...

For "arguments" sake, are you implying that if you happened to have been around, training with O-Sensei, and if he happened to sit down to tell you what "Aikido" is, that he wouldn't be telling you the truth? Or is it that you wouldn't believe him?

I guess my real question is, Do you think that there is no truth out there, or that "possibly" you just haven't met anyone who knew what it was, or knew but was not willing to tell you?

more questions (we) all can play with...

Moreover, if you had been around and told by O-Sensei what "Aikido" is, and then some twenty or thirty odd years after it had been completely bastardized you went around telling people what you thought it was based upon your own "true" experiences, would you then be wrong, or would everyone just believe you were?

Does anyone out there think that O-Sensei considered that his art might get watered down, atemi, weapons, and the martial spirit ripped from its center, So he "clued" a few of his closer disciples in on what he understood aikido to be, so that they would be able to pass it along once it all got turned to mud?

Do you think that this might even possibly have already happened?

With regards to the original poster of this thread, since we are "sharing" our "opinions" here, I have a statement and a question.

Statement: "Martial Arts without "atemi" is like sewing without a needle and thread."

Question: I am interested to know on what sources you base your opinion?

chadsieger 05-29-2002 10:54 AM

Welcome
 
It was not my intention to come to Aikiweb to illicit opinions of those with a "full cup." If anyone becomes offended, for whatever reason, I am sorry. Worst case scenario, someone scoffs at this rehtorical nonsense, best case scenario, a new student to Aikido and the Martial Arts elects to train beyond physical strength, trophies, and competition, on a endless quest to free their mind and spirit.
Tao nonsense I guess.
When I say a spiritual Atemi, I simply mean, that he/she as the aggressor have by intiating an attack have created an "unnatural" situation. If you are also in the wrong, for whatever reason, it will be intrisically more difficult for you to conteract the disharmony. Your positive spiritual atemi is required. Should you respond with hate, the attacker now has a better reason to attack. If you maintain the spirtual calm that we all strive for, the attacker could theoretically be subdued by your lack of aggression.
A ki atemi is far more "physical." Everyone has a ki field, whether you belive in it or not. Developing ki, though no simple task, can be done by anyone with the proper relaxed mindstate. Hopefully, your ki is more developed than your attacker's, in which case techniques may not be necessary. Extend though the attacker, and strike them with your ki!
Atemi on the mat degrades the lesson. Don't muscle through techniques! Use ki for better results.

Greg Jennings 05-29-2002 11:49 AM

Re: The "truth" is in there.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Misogi-no-Gyo


(Mr. Jennings) Hmmm, interesting point... Since everyone is being blunt in this thread, I thought I would play a bit of Devil's advocate with you...

For "arguments" sake, are you implying that if you happened to have been around, training with O-Sensei, and if he happened to sit down to tell you what "Aikido" is, that he wouldn't be telling you the truth? Or is it that you wouldn't believe him?

I guess my real question is, Do you think that there is no truth out there, or that "possibly" you just haven't met anyone who knew what it was, or knew but was not willing to tell you?

My belief is that there is no universal truth; that truth is a very context-dependent thing.

E.g., Is it true that two objects fall at the same rate of speed in a vacuum even though one weighs more than the other?

In at least one context the statement is "true". In others it is absolutely "false".

Best Regards,

Jim23 05-29-2002 11:59 AM

Re: Train in Aikido for Martial Arts
 
Quote:

Originally posted by chadsieger
So, O'Sensei was correct when saying that certain techniques do require atemi. He did not say however, to use atemis to practice Aikido. The purpose of training with Aikido techniques is to teach you the feeling of budo. "Learn and forget." Using atemis on the mat degrade the nourishment. Similar to frying food.

So, what you're saying is that you prefer sushi to, say, tempura. That some sushi can be of better quality than others - some may even need more wasabi! - and that sushi is not for everyone (too soft, subtle). We should all at least try tempura, but then put it behind us at mealtime. :D

Jim23

jk 05-29-2002 10:22 PM

Re: Welcome
 
Quote:

Originally posted by chadsieger
Atemi on the mat degrades the lesson.
Chad, how much physical atemi have you done/experienced to warrant this statement? As for my relatively inexperienced take on it, (my) aikido doesn't work so well without atemi, or at least without a very real threat of atemi on the part of nage...

Regards,

guest1234 05-29-2002 11:32 PM

Hi Chad, and welcome to Aikido. I think you must be new, and perhaps not so used to interacting with people... you may find it easier to make friends (both here and in real life) if you approach others with the same respect you'd like. I'm sure you would not like to be talked down to, lectured to, or sit through someone's rambling, disjointed disertation on 'the real Aikido'.

Chocolateuke 05-29-2002 11:44 PM

okay first off, I believe there are big truths and small truths. Big truths kinda stay true for a long time, Small truths change. sorry my mind is blank at the moment ( grrrrr stupid chemistry equations). but the truth does evovle most of the time in my opioin.

as for Chad. I aint no MA master or anythign acually most people say Im stupid but what do you mean by ki?? do you mean life force that substains us makes us grow and unifies us all together ( like the force). or do you mean the undying consentration which at times gives you the ablitly to be centered and balenced and the unbendble arm? what is your definition of KI??

BTW I love atemi it rocks! hurts but rocks and my sensei doesnt teach it till we have a very firm grasp on the basics! Have fun all!

chadsieger 05-30-2002 12:41 AM

Firstly, I don't mean to offend anyone. My intention is not to preach or talk down to anyone. The purpose of my posts are simply to advise those just begining their martial arts journey, those who are dissatisfied with or just looking for more from their training, or those who simply are getting on in years and are looking for a way to make those old techniques still work now that the body is not so willing. If you have already decide not to persue the ki aspect of martial arts, than I am sorry and that is your decision. If you are still undecided as to its existence and purpose/usefulness in martial arts and especially Aikido, please feel free to read my posts.

Chocolateuke 05-30-2002 10:14 AM

your still not answering the question.. what do you define as KI?? and how do you know if me or any other people on the form dont train in ki?? your making very bad assumptions. now if you already posted where you told us your definition of KI I would love to read it. but till then you havent answerd a few peoples question. as for training with ki! and some forms of AIkido think if you have enough relaxation focuse and balence "Ki" will work thorugh you. so.. sorry if I offend YOU but I just am courouse.

chadsieger 05-30-2002 10:27 AM

Firstly, I HAVENT told anybody that they are doing anything incorrectly. I have laid out platform for anyone to follow. Why would anyone have a problem with that?
For Mr. Dallas, here is a brief but incomplete definition:
I'm am by no means an expert on ki. I have tasted a drop, but it springs from ocean I probably will never fully see. I can say for certain however that ki has these few attributes, ki comes in many forms (i.e. unbendable arm, the way that animals instinctively move), you need to utilize ki to correctly use Aikido or any other martial art correctly/most effectively (although Aikido and Tai Chi stress its importance the most), proper ki usage is attainable by anyone simply with effort, time, and direction, and finally, although ki is mysteriously vague, you know it when you see it.
Check the post "Ki usage in Aikido" for more information, or simply look for more of my posts.

Thanks for reading!

Find what you can USE, not what you can pick at.

ronmar 05-30-2002 01:29 PM

Quote:

Everyone has a ki field, whether you belive in it or not. Developing ki, though no simple task, can be done by anyone with the proper relaxed mindstate. Hopefully, your ki is more developed than your attacker's, in which case techniques may not be necessary. Extend though the attacker, and strike them with your ki!
I don't agree. However I think this little bit of information might be useful for any beginning aikido students who have't yet discoveres the true way.

Everyone is made of cheese, whether they believe it or not. Developing sufficient cheesiness, though difficult, can be achieved by anyone with the proper blank-slate mindstate. Hopefully, and I speak from experience here, your cheese is more mature than your attacker's, in which case actual techniques should not be necessary. Yes its that easy, and you won't even have to fight anyone to achieve this level of greatness. Extend through the attacker, and strike them with your cheese!!!

giriasis 05-30-2002 02:19 PM

Chad,

I checked out your profile and you refer to yourself as a novice. I'm glad to hear your enthusiasm in regards to aikido. But it would be better phrased as your experience.

I've been practicing aikido for almost three years now, and it was the concept of "ki" that drew me towards aikido. My experience in aikido is that people get different results from their practice of aikido. Your results don't mean that it should be everyones results. It is just your experience -- a valid one, but just yours. My practice of aikido has made the intangible tangible. I have brought the thought and talk to an actual physical practice. The result of this is far different than what I expected. As a result my concept and point of view towards ki transformed from a mystical force to something much more substantial. And in the end all that matters is the training, because it is the training itself that will transform me. I believe you might discover something similar as you continue your training.

In regards to how and why people here are perceiving you as preaching. Let's look at the words you're using. Please read the following here as a means to understand where some of us might be coming from.

Quote:

It was not my intention to come to Aikiweb to illicit opinions of those with a "full cup."
Sometimes despite our best intentions, harm still may result. Assuming a person's cup is full is a broad assumption and implies that you have something to fill it with. Assumptions can get you in trouble -- especially on the net where you really don't know the people you're talking to. In this assumption you are setting yourself up as a teacher, and we didn't ask for you to teach us. This is the results of your words.

Quote:

If anyone becomes offended, for whatever reason, I am sorry. Worst case scenario, someone scoffs at this rehtorical nonsense, best case scenario, a new student to Aikido and the Martial Arts elects to train beyond physical strength, trophies, and competition, on a endless quest to free their mind and spirit.
It is appreciated that you have apologized and it is encouraging that you want to go beyond the physical. I've discovered that we have to go through the physical to reach beyond. However, if people are indicating that they are being offended by your words, an aiki way to deal with this is to take the effort to understand where they are coming from. Despite the apology, I haven't seen this effort.

Quote:

When I say a spiritual Atemi, I simply mean, that he/she as the aggressor have by intiating an attack have created an "unnatural" situation. If you are also in the wrong, for whatever reason, it will be intrisically more difficult for you to conteract the disharmony. Your positive spiritual atemi is required. Should you respond with hate, the attacker now has a better reason to attack. If you maintain the spirtual calm that we all strive for, the attacker could theoretically be subdued by your lack of aggression.
This concept of ki atemi or spiritual atemi is an interesting one. The use of "should" implies an imperative that must be followed and it also implies judgment. Such as one person should do one thing and not another because it is better. Your message is being lost in usage of such language.

You're correct it is best to respond to an attack without hate, but with calm mind. This is one of the main principles of aikido. But including this in your comment about spiritual atemi, you end up implying (whether intentionally or not) that those who use regular atemi are using it with hate. Physical atemi can easily be used without hate. A good aikido practitioner can easily employ strong atemi with a calm state of mind.

Quote:

A ki atemi is far more "physical." Everyone has a ki field, whether you belive in it or not. Developing ki, though no simple task, can be done by anyone with the proper relaxed mindstate. Hopefully, your ki is more developed than your attacker's, in which case techniques may not be necessary. Extend though the attacker, and strike them with your ki!
Here, you seem to be discussing another essential principle of aikido -- extension. Extension has some very physical attributes though. However, what extension means depends according to each practitioners definition of "ki". That is why someone asked you what your definition of ki is. They asked in an attempt to understand your point of view. I agree that everyone has "ki". But the more difficult and interesting issue is defining what "ki" is.

Quote:

Atemi on the mat degrades the lesson.
When you say "atemi on the mat", is it proper for me to assume that you mean physicalatemi? The main problem with this statement is the word "degrade," because it sets up an oppositional or lecturing tone. Many aikido practitioners do practice physical atemi on the mat. Do you realize you just told these people that they are degrading their lessons? If atemi is done properly and with the proper attitude there is no degradation of the lesson. In fact, in many cases, it is the lesson.

Quote:

Don't muscle through techniques! Use ki for better results.
I couldn't agree more that muscling through technique is poor practice. And utilizing the proper aikido principles (or "ki") enables an aikido practitioner to obtain better results. Yet, the word "don't" is a command telling people what to do.

In conclusion, I'm not trying to degrade your experience, actually from what I can tell you have a similar experience as other aikido practitioners. Because you don't seem to understand where some of us are coming from, I am trying to demonstrate how your words can be interpreted as preachy.

Clearing up this problem is simple. All that needs to be stated at the beginning is -- "I'm new to aikido and this is why I like it so much." Instead of illiciting a "cough, cough", the result perhaps would have been interesting discussions on ki, atemi, and extension.

As the saying goes, "It's not what you say; it's how you say it."

In the spirit of aiki,

chadsieger 05-30-2002 03:08 PM

Thank you Anne for clarification and critique. We are all novices, true masters don't talk about their martial art on the web, its just the nature of the beast.
I guess the the disharmony between myself and seemingly everyone on my posts is simply due to the fact that I did not properly acclimate myself to the style of communication that already exists. Proper steps should have been taken on my part to prepare each statement I made to not offend anyone. However, I'm not trying to join a community. I figured that people interested in ki would open my posts. Instead, people who didnt believe in ki picked through them and accused me of being "preachy."
My posts are for those who are newly interested in persuing martial arts, those of physically weak stature, those with a handicap, those who are looking for more from the martial arts than pain and tired muscles, or those getting older who wish to continue the martial arts indeffinately.
If you dont agree, I'm sorry, I hope we can still be friends.

Thanks.

giriasis 05-30-2002 03:49 PM

Chad,

Even though you're not interested in joining this community, you still entered it. So, "When in Rome..."

I understand you need to share with those new to aikido, that is commendable. People new to aikido do come here. They read the posts and they are exposed to all points of view so they can come up with their own interpretation. Please realize that just because someone disagrees with what you say it doesn't means they don't believe in "ki." And it doesn't imply that they think your wrong either. There are many ways up the mountain.

I suggest reading through the forums here to see the various ways people here interpret the meaning of "ki." Some believe it as a mystical force others it is basic body mechanics, but both sides will call it "ki." For most, their view is probably in the middle somewhere. There are just so many various views and as a result "ki" can be hotly discussed and debated. Considering this is disagreement really that surprising? It means the aikido community is dynamic and alive. That's a good thing.

I guess it seems surprising to you that there are so many different views here and that people don't always agree. I have learned not to interpret the harmony of aikido as everyone agreeing. Rather, it's about approaching a conflict in a proactive and positive manner. Aikido is assertiveness training. Conflict is definantly not avoided here. However, people will do their best to avoid flame wars and be as cordial as possible without compromising their point of views.

In the spirit of aiki,

Misogi-no-Gyo 05-30-2002 04:27 PM

We must love him, cause we can't kill him.
 
Mr. Sieger,

I have read all of your posts, and would like to comment.

I, like others here on the board, have picked up on your somewhat "inappropriate" tone. Personally, I could care less for "how" you say things, as much as some of the "sensitive" types, aikido often attracts. I, like you, am a "believer" as you might say. However, it is not like "faith" for me, as the instruction I have received directly from my teachers have enabled me to set out and travel on the long path so many others have traveled on before me.

Feedback - To be honest, each time someone contradicts you, you say something to the effect of, "Well that is because you are a doubter of KI" This does little to serve you, bolster your arguments, or others opinions of you. If you think the latter matters not, then consider this: E=MC(squared) - a powerful statement, no? Yes, it is, but not because I said it. It is because someone who came before me (Albert Einstein) put his entire spirit into creating that concept in our society's consciousness. The words are the same, but it is the character of the person who says them that gives the words life, power and meaning (kotodama). You make statements too. To me, they sound more like someone else's words, rather than your own. Moreover, like the way the words E=MC(Squared) are when I use them, the ones you put forth here are words that you don't really seem to have a clear command over.

I have several questions that I would like you to provide clear answers to. It may serve to help me, and other's on this board to better "hear" what it is that you are saying.

1. How long have you been training in Aikido/
2. What other martial arts do you have in your background?
3. How old are you?
4. From whom did you directly learn "ki" or "kokyu"?
5. When you say "teach" what dojo, and on what day/nights do you do this teaching?

Don't get me wrong, no one is doubting your intention. After all, some of what you say has merit. To be blunt though, some of it is completely incorrect - however, that is another matter entirely. As far as "helping" beginners, may I politely recommend waiting until a beginner approaches you with a question, rather than just storming in and making disconnected statements as the basis for starting a new thread. My feeling, having had met many who have a similar tone, you do more to harm the beginner mind with your word-puzzles, than provide any clear understanding, point out a new path to set afoot on, or add encouragement to press on through the often difficult plateaus we experience along the way.

For what its worth, having experienced a wide variety of aikidoka, and having a somewhat open mind, I have yet to meet anyone who sounds off in the way that you do who ever really had any understanding of Ki, Kokyu, Kuzushi, Shizen-ni, Masagatsu-Agatsu-Katsuhayahi, or budo, whatsoever. Of course, this was reflected as much in their low-level techniques, poor ukemi, and other, more anti-social type behavioral patterns, as in their rants about how we should all practice the unbendable arm to expose the secrets of aikido and the universe at large. Again, for what its worth...

ganbattemasu (keep training!)

chadsieger 05-30-2002 04:49 PM

I DONT CARE ABOUT YOUR PREDISPOSITIONS. No, I am not enlightened. I don't see how anyone can be offended by ANYTHING I have said. I have said that NOBODY is doing ANYTHING wrong. If you READ my statements, instead of reading the REPLYS (which make belive that there is a problem, human nature I suppose), you will see that I am not disillusioned, inexperienced, or trying to hurt anyone. You disagree, FINE. I know that there are an infinate way of explaining anything, just as there are thousands of ways of interpreting ki. Read my posts or dont.
My posts are for those interested/needing. Sorry if I'm messing with your TURF.

Mr. Ravens, you know that I could never convince someone of the existance of ki over the computer. My posts are not for people with there mind made up. Why would someone who doesn't believe in ki join a post called "USE KI" ?
Also, could you please elaborate on which part was "completly incorrect."
Also, also, if you think that putting a lifetime of training into a few posts keep in mind that anytime you use a word that stands for a concept that cannont be described in words, there is someone out there checking to see if you have complete command of every word.

Andy 05-30-2002 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chadsieger
I DONT CARE ABOUT YOUR PREDISPOSITIONS.
And we're supposed to care about yours? How egotistical and selfish of you.
Quote:

My posts are not for people with there mind made up. Why would someone who doesn't believe in ki join a post called "USE KI" ?
You're posting onto a public discussion board with absolutely no such criteria such as "If you don't believe in what Chad Sieger writes, then don't read it, don't reply to it, don't disagree with it, and don't (heavens!) challenge what he writes."

You better get used to having what you write scrutinized by those who don't share your exact same "predispositions". This is a discussion board, after all.

Once again, how long have you been training in aikido? Have the creases in your white belt disappeared yet?


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