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phitruong 02-23-2011 12:25 PM

"move your inside"
 
since the thread on Ikeda sensei demonstrating was closed, i didn't finished point #3. just want to cover #3 as i stated so folks wouldn't feel jib. for those who wanted to know #1 and #2, you can go here http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...t=19184&page=6
just skip over all the junks (mine included).

to recap the three points: connected, unity, and move your inside.

move your inside doesn't mean that you are going to flip your kidneys around or turn your spleen up-side-down or making faces with your large and small intestines. although, if you can do that, please let me know how and i declare you alien and ship you to Area 51 (it does exist. .... does too!) :)

if you use Tohei's keep the one point model, then you know the one point is the hara/dantien, where your belly always itch and you can't scratch it while in front of ladies. so if you think of the one point located below your navel and a bit inward of your belly. imagine the one point expands and be as big as a tennis ball. now imagine threads extend from the tennis ball's surface and connect to various part of your body, for example, a thread with one end anchor on the surface of the ball and the other to your right palm. so if i want to move my palm, i just rotate the ball. the thread would pull and your palm move with the pull. now, since there are lots of threads on the surface of the ball, if the ball rotate and/or move in any direction, various parts of your body, the ones that had thread connection, move as well. thus the phrase "one moves all move". and if you view the ball as your dantien/hara, then the process called "dantien/hara movement", i.e. "move your inside".

for untrained or newly trained folks in this arena, instead of a ball, they have a point or small ball, say a golf ball. since the golf ball surface is small, it doesn't have a whole lot of surface area which mean it doesn't have a whole lot of threads connecting to various parts of your body. better trained folks, have larger ball, thus larger surface area and more threads, i.e. more body simultaneously control. essentially, you take Tohei's one point and expand it into a ball and move it around.

since we have #1 (connected) and #2 (unity), we are one and connected, 4-legged animal (donkey) and i am the head :D , as i "move my inside", you would move as well. however, the movement doesn't register with uke's perception, because uke's expecting power through the contact point. sort of imagine the threads are now extending into uke's body.

so there, i have done as i said. you folks can debate or whatever (pick #2).

*disclaimer before folks asking what sort of ball i have. i got tiny ball (being asian and all) :) *

Janet Rosen 02-23-2011 12:58 PM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Phi, you crack me up - I guess I'm having a ball reading this!!!!

Mark Freeman 02-23-2011 01:31 PM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 277475)
since the thread on Ikeda sensei demonstrating was closed, i didn't finished point #3. just want to cover #3 as i stated so folks wouldn't feel jib. for those who wanted to know #1 and #2, you can go here http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...t=19184&page=6
just skip over all the junks (mine included).

to recap the three points: connected, unity, and move your inside.

move your inside doesn't mean that you are going to flip your kidneys around or turn your spleen up-side-down or making faces with your large and small intestines. although, if you can do that, please let me know how and i declare you alien and ship you to Area 51 (it does exist. .... does too!) :)

if you use Tohei's keep the one point model, then you know the one point is the hara/dantien, where your belly always itch and you can't scratch it while in front of ladies. so if you think of the one point located below your navel and a bit inward of your belly. imagine the one point expands and be as big as a tennis ball. now imagine threads extend from the tennis ball's surface and connect to various part of your body, for example, a thread with one end anchor on the surface of the ball and the other to your right palm. so if i want to move my palm, i just rotate the ball. the thread would pull and your palm move with the pull. now, since there are lots of threads on the surface of the ball, if the ball rotate and/or move in any direction, various parts of your body, the ones that had thread connection, move as well. thus the phrase "one moves all move". and if you view the ball as your dantien/hara, then the process called "dantien/hara movement", i.e. "move your inside".

for untrained or newly trained folks in this arena, instead of a ball, they have a point or small ball, say a golf ball. since the golf ball surface is small, it doesn't have a whole lot of surface area which mean it doesn't have a whole lot of threads connecting to various parts of your body. better trained folks, have larger ball, thus larger surface area and more threads, i.e. more body simultaneously control. essentially, you take Tohei's one point and expand it into a ball and move it around.

since we have #1 (connected) and #2 (unity), we are one and connected, 4-legged animal (donkey) and i am the head :D , as i "move my inside", you would move as well. however, the movement doesn't register with uke's perception, because uke's expecting power through the contact point. sort of imagine the threads are now extending into uke's body.

so there, i have done as i said. you folks can debate or whatever (pick #2).

*disclaimer before folks asking what sort of ball i have. i got tiny ball (being asian and all) :) *

Hi Phi,

I think that is an excellent description of the sort of mental imagary needed to get to grips with moving in this very specific way.

I think the big leap that happens for those that get what you are talking about is, that the one point moves the body, not the other way round. It is a quantum leap to go from thinking that mechanical movement (stepping, rotating hips, bending knees etc) turns or drops the hara, to the mind/hara/big ball initiating everything.

Thanks for such a clear description of what I have found to be one of the most beneficial understandings on my aikido journey. Folks reading this who are not au fait with the concept, would do well to spend a great deal of their practice, trying to make sense of it, it would be time well spent.

thanks too for keeping it all laced with dollops of irreverent humour:)
and just for the record, so I've been told, size isn't everything;)

regards,

Mark

Thomas Campbell 02-23-2011 01:40 PM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 277475)
to recap the three points: connected, unity, and move your inside.

move your inside doesn't mean that you are going to flip your kidneys around or turn your spleen up-side-down or making faces with your large and small intestines. although, if you can do that, please let me know how and i declare you alien and ship you to Area 51 (it does exist. .... does too!) :)

if you use Tohei's keep the one point model, then you know the one point is the hara/dantien, where your belly always itch and you can't scratch it while in front of ladies. so if you think of the one point located below your navel and a bit inward of your belly. imagine the one point expands and be as big as a tennis ball. now imagine threads extend from the tennis ball's surface and connect to various part of your body, for example, a thread with one end anchor on the surface of the ball and the other to your right palm. so if i want to move my palm, i just rotate the ball. the thread would pull and your palm move with the pull. now, since there are lots of threads on the surface of the ball, if the ball rotate and/or move in any direction, various parts of your body, the ones that had thread connection, move as well. thus the phrase "one moves all move". and if you view the ball as your dantien/hara, then the process called "dantien/hara movement", i.e. "move your inside".

for untrained or newly trained folks in this arena, instead of a ball, they have a point or small ball, say a golf ball. since the golf ball surface is small, it doesn't have a whole lot of surface area which mean it doesn't have a whole lot of threads connecting to various parts of your body. better trained folks, have larger ball, thus larger surface area and more threads, i.e. more body simultaneously control. essentially, you take Tohei's one point and expand it into a ball and move it around.

since we have #1 (connected) and #2 (unity), we are one and connected, 4-legged animal (donkey) and i am the head :D , as i "move my inside", you would move as well. however, the movement doesn't register with uke's perception, because uke's expecting power through the contact point. sort of imagine the threads are now extending into uke's body.

So Phi . . . is the 4-legged donkey a metaphor for the connected unity of nage and uke (each providing two legs)? If so, how does the nage's power extend into or affect uke except through the point(s) of contact?

Separately . . . how do you learn to rotate the ball (hara/dantien)? Are there specific exercises to do that? It's not aikido, but . . . in the Chinese art of taijiquan, teachers often say that the ability to rotate the hara/dantien will occur naturally over time as a consequence of training the form. This doesn't seem to happen for a lot of people, so I'm curious if there are separate exercises that would train movement of the hara in the aikido context. I'm assuming this would help in making the hara/dantien ball "bigger," as you describe.

Finally, are the "threads" that you write about related to the fascia often discussed here as providing the (or a) medium of internal connection? If so, where would I feel the movement (extension or contraction) of the "threads" . . . under the skin, and/or over or through the joints, and/or through the muscles? Those are all places where fascia wraps around or winds through the body.

Any insight you can provide is appreciated. Thanks.

phitruong 02-23-2011 08:30 PM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote: (Post 277484)
I think the big leap that happens for those that get what you are talking about is, that the one point moves the body, not the other way round. It is a quantum leap to go from thinking that mechanical movement (stepping, rotating hips, bending knees etc) turns or drops the hara, to the mind/hara/big ball initiating everything.

Mark

took me awhile to realize this too. i have always thought that in order to move the one point i have to physically move my body by stepping and other motions you described. the key is the mind directs the one point/ball to move and the body follows. mind leads ki. ki leads movement. this is what i believed differentiate internal arts from external arts. external arts use the body to move the one point. internal arts use the one point to move the body.
it's a totally different mindset and way of moving. from the outside movements look the same, but from the inside, very different. you often heard Ikeda sensei said "you don't see it, but he knows" (pointing to his uke who often have a big grin and nodding his/her head vigorously).

Janet Rosen 02-23-2011 08:40 PM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote: (Post 277484)
I think the big leap that happens for those that get what you are talking about is, that the one point moves the body, not the other way round.

Yes, exactly!

phitruong 02-23-2011 09:07 PM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Quote:

Thomas Campbell wrote: (Post 277485)
So Phi . . . is the 4-legged donkey a metaphor for the connected unity of nage and uke (each providing two legs)? If so, how does the nage's power extend into or affect uke except through the point(s) of contact?

i'll wait for other folks to answer this. if nobody chime in, then i'll. it's a bit lengthly. IS folks? helloooooo...... budd, where are you, bud?

Quote:

Separately . . . how do you learn to rotate the ball (hara/dantien)? Are there specific exercises to do that? It's not aikido, but . . . in the Chinese art of taijiquan, teachers often say that the ability to rotate the hara/dantien will occur naturally over time as a consequence of training the form. This doesn't seem to happen for a lot of people, so I'm curious if there are separate exercises that would train movement of the hara in the aikido context. I'm assuming this would help in making the hara/dantien ball "bigger," as you describe.
you need to find and keep the one point first. folks have various ways to do this. the one, that i found that has a long history, is standing post. it's a good practice to manage the one point from static position and good to build leg strength. i talked about this in one of the thread. and also consider that the one point is the nexus of all the ground paths criss crossing your body.

once you have the one point/ball, then silk reeling. silk reeling isn't about waving your arms and twisting your body around. it's about moving your body using the dantien/hara ball. coupling that with some breathing process (now you know the term kokyu power) and you have good exercise to build your ball (i won't mention other ball exercises that those hormone raging teenage boys practices :D )

doing forms in order to build the ball is the same as moving the body in order to move the one point. you are doing the external stuffs.

for aikido, the rowing exercises and various Tohei's aiki taiso exercises would work, as long as you initiate all the movement using the one point/ball and breathing, kokyu remember?

Quote:

Finally, are the "threads" that you write about related to the fascia often discussed here as providing the (or a) medium of internal connection? If so, where would I feel the movement (extension or contraction) of the "threads" . . . under the skin, and/or over or through the joints, and/or through the muscles? Those are all places where fascia wraps around or winds through the body.
for me the "threads" (need to find different term because the image could lead to confusion) are anything that are not bone and muscle, which includes skin, fascia, hair, blood vessels, and so on. i believed there a major channels, if you will, where the threads come together which chinese medicine folks refer to as meridians.

* standard disclaimer that i reserve the right to change my mind like the female species of the human race :) (oh ya! i am dead meat, very much dead meat!) *

Janet Rosen 02-23-2011 10:25 PM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 277516)
for aikido, the rowing exercises and various Tohei's aiki taiso exercises would work, as long as you initiate all the movement using the one point/ball and breathing, kokyu remember?

Which is very hard when you are first working on it. I mean, I've been doing those exercises for years, but was doing them with center and one point essentially as metaphor for center as in pelvis/hips.(Being told to "Imagine a ball of energy" is a totally different instruction than being told to/how to isolate and work that circle!)
Anyhow.... I'm finding that it is essential to work on this at home as in class we only do say 8-10 reps of each exercise and it takes me that many to first get my one point moving the way I want, then get it to move my largest adjacent joints...by the time I am ready to add in my arms, we've moved on to the next exercise. At this point, If I start right in with including my arms, I never get the one point properly engaged.
My 2 cents, may not be worth that much:)

john.burn 02-24-2011 06:25 AM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Phi,

Really liking the description, you've just given me a new way of describing what I've been trying to get across the folks on my class :D. I might steal the idea for tonight ;) .

PhillyKiAikido 02-24-2011 04:03 PM

Re: "move your inside"
 
"Only when you can lead another person's mind and Ki can you effectively lead that person's body. Therefore, before you can lead your partner's mind and Ki, you must first learn to control your own mind and body. In other words, before you can win over other people, you must first practice to win over yourself." -- Koichi Tohei

Very good post, thanks Phi! Just add my two cents:

Cent #1: Both the ball and the threads are more mind than physical. At first, it's imagination, at last, it becomes real.

Cent #2: IMHO, the threads are more like very thin coils, they're flexible, connecting your ball with the rest of your body. Through your Stance/ZhanZhuang(Chinese) training, your mind will become more and more calm and clear and you will have all the connections done. So at the end, your whole body will become a big beachball (filled with water) supported/connected by the coils from the center. Then whenever there is any disturbance/movement/changes happen to the surface, the center will immidiately sense that. When you move from your center ball, the whole outer ball moves accordingly because of the coils. Tohei sensei said it's easy to keep this feeling(Ki) when you're still, but it's hard to keep it when you move, esp when you're being attacked. It takes right practiceto achieve this, as Tohei sensei said "perfect practice makes perfect."

JW 02-25-2011 10:47 AM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Phi, I feel like Ikeda's points (connection, unity, change insides) all deal with application, rather than the building of the body that you are using in the application.
Now you are talking about the body that should be built. Very different between beginner and advanced. It's the missing piece that is historically talked about so rarely.

What I mean is, without good threads (or coils.. I think of it as both poles and rubber bands, aligned in specific places, and the interaction of these 2 types would feel like coils or springs), the ball is useless. And, without a good ball, strong threads are useless (not totally useless, but useless for the purposes talked about here).
Right?

I think Ikeda is doing great for his body. But beginners with less developed bodies should work within their means. So for a beginner to do the right thing, it looks a bit different from Ikeda-- because there are so few "right things" to do for an undeveloped body. My "change insides" might not include some of the things that Ikeda's "change insides" encompasses.

phitruong 02-25-2011 11:12 AM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Quote:

Jonathan Wong wrote: (Post 277625)
I think Ikeda is doing great for his body. But beginners with less developed bodies should work within their means. So for a beginner to do the right thing, it looks a bit different from Ikeda-- because there are so few "right things" to do for an undeveloped body. My "change insides" might not include some of the things that Ikeda's "change insides" encompasses.

for beginner, there is no such thing as doing the "right thing". assumption of all you doing are wrong would be a good place to start. if beginner can do a few things, then do a few things, but work on doing it well, don't try to compete with experts.

some thought for you. there are hundreds (maybe thousands, don't have the roster) of aikidoka in ASU, yet, very few can do half the stuffs that Ikeda could. they have been doing what you suggested, worked with what they have and tried to do the stuffs that Ikeda sensei did. not many focus on building the body. it's like trying to build the foundation underneath of an erected house.

Budd 02-25-2011 11:15 AM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Whoops, late to the party as usual - Phi, you know I don't respond with the lower casedness, sheesh . . okay, now I will . . hang on.

Budd 02-25-2011 11:24 AM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 277516)
i'll wait for other folks to answer this. if nobody chime in, then i'll. it's a bit lengthly. IS folks? helloooooo...... budd, where are you, bud?

Okay, Tom's question dealt with the four-legged donkey. I tend to look more generally as when two people touch, they form one unit, a single animal with four legs. Both people potentially provide feedback into the single unit. But the person that has better conditioned themselves to be able to manage the combination of ground pushing up and gravity pulling down (as a discrete skill) can add the other person's management of up/down forces into their own matrix . . and thus be the controlling end of the donkey ;)

Alfonso 02-25-2011 03:16 PM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Phi what's the donkey part about?

JangChoe 02-26-2011 08:36 PM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Quote:

Alfonso Adriasola wrote: (Post 277640)
Phi what's the donkey part about?

Hey must have visited Tijuana recently.

George S. Ledyard 02-27-2011 12:52 PM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 277627)
for beginner, there is no such thing as doing the "right thing". assumption of all you doing are wrong would be a good place to start. if beginner can do a few things, then do a few things, but work on doing it well, don't try to compete with experts.

some thought for you. there are hundreds (maybe thousands, don't have the roster) of aikidoka in ASU, yet, very few can do half the stuffs that Ikeda could. they have been doing what you suggested, worked with what they have and tried to do the stuffs that Ikeda sensei did. not many focus on building the body. it's like trying to build the foundation underneath of an erected house.

I Think it is important for folks to realize that there are really two aspects of this training and it is not necessary to be doing both at the beginning.

To have the kind of power that Dan. Mike, or Ark can display, you have to do quite a lot of conditioning of the structure. To do what Ikeda Sensei is doing does not require doing a lot of solo conditioning work. It would only help but it is not strictly necessary.

Ikeda Sensei is showing exactly what is necessary at every seminar he teaches. He is pretty much doing the same work at every seminar or camp. He has two components which, while not actually separate, can be given individual focus. First, is how to make center to center connection on a physical level and how to use your body to give direction to that connection. You can start this work externally, using small adjustments of the hips and pelvis and eventually start moving things internally whereby you accomplish the same thing with very little outside movement at all.

The second component is where and how you place your intention. Where you put your attention effects everything. He also plays with how he can change your ability to stabilize your structure using his intention. This is an important part of what he got from working with Ushiro Sensei.and it is something the Systema folks do as well.

Of these two components, he can explain the connection work much better, in my opinion. Every time I have seen him for the last few years his explanations have gotten better. If you have any idea what he is doing, I think his explanations can help you get better. For someone who hasn't any idea, I don't think his explanations are basic enough. There is stuff going on he doesn't explain and some of that is crucial.

In my opinion, the mental work, what the Systema folks would call psychic energy, is not really explained at all. He shows it, has everyone try some simple exercises, but I see very few folks who have any idea how to go about thinking about what they are trying to do. You really need to work with someone who can do it and feel what they are doing as they explain it. Since most folks don't get to take much ukemi from the Shihan and if he is throwing you, he is never explaining what he is doing at the same time, it is extremely difficult to understand what is happening. Ushiro Sensei has a more explanatory method on this stuff and the System folks have a very gradual and systematic methodology for developing an understanding of this work.

To really do what Ikeda Sensei is doing, you have to be able to do both, but the good news is you can make some substantial progress just working out the physical connection side. I think that as one works on that, some of the mental side will naturally start happening because it really isn't separate. Doing one will at least begin to produce the other.

The more connections one can make in the body and he better one understands how the intent and the breath effect those connections, the better the stuff works. That's why the IP skills guys are so helpful. They have a FAR more detailed description of these connections than we find within the Aikido community. Get a bit of that instruction and suddenly Ikeda Sensei's classes make far more sense. But the most important thing is to do some work with a partner who does understand what he is doing and can make you feel it and also give you detailed feedback while you try.

Budd 02-27-2011 04:28 PM

Re: "move your inside"
 
George, can you give an example of the psychic energy exercise that you would do in order to appropriately "move your inside"?

George S. Ledyard 02-27-2011 08:28 PM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Quote:

Budd Yuhasz wrote: (Post 277762)
George, can you give an example of the psychic energy exercise that you would do in order to appropriately "move your inside"?

I wouldn't have phrased it that way... Some of the so-called psychic energy work isn't really about moving your inside at all... although I have to say that, in terms of the dabbling I have done, various connections probably are firing when I do it. As I have stated before, I am not an "internal skills" expert.

The kind of thing I am talking about takes place before you physically touch. If you project your intent out to the oncoming uke, you meet his or her intention (which by virtue of deciding to attack, they have directed to you). At the point at which you have joined intentions in this manner, if you run the same kind of movement, either externally or internally that you would have at the instant of physical contact, you find that your partner starts being caught in that movement before he makes contact.

You can reach out with your intention and make the attacker feel as if their is no way for him to move forward. A number of people talked about facing the Founder and feeling frozen in place. I have played with this and can do it to some extent but not quite to that extent. Feeling Ushiro do it is quite something.

What I was basically talking about is how the intent effects the connection. You can start with a simple simple exercise like static katatetori. Start very neutral and then go deeper with the connection... to the wrist, to the elbow, to the shoulder, to the opposite shoulder, to the hip, to the back foot, to the front foot... if your attention is placed properly, not at the point of contact, you can move the connection around and connect with different parts of the partner's body and there won't be noticeable change at the point of contact. If there is a change in pressure at the point of contact, that's where your mind is going... at that point the technique is easily resistable.

That's the kind of thing I am talking about...

gregstec 02-27-2011 08:51 PM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Quote:

Jang Choe wrote: (Post 277709)
Hey must have visited Tijuana recently.

You must be Navy :freaky:

phitruong 02-28-2011 07:40 AM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Quote:

Alfonso Adriasola wrote: (Post 277640)
Phi what's the donkey part about?

ever heard the phrase "south end of the north bound donkey"?

phitruong 02-28-2011 07:51 AM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote: (Post 277731)
To have the kind of power that Dan. Mike, or Ark can display, you have to do quite a lot of conditioning of the structure. To do what Ikeda Sensei is doing does not require doing a lot of solo conditioning work. It would only help but it is not strictly necessary.

i don't think this is the case. the mind-body conditioning to be able to release power (fajin) like the IP/IS folks is the same as be able to manipulate (aiki/huajin) other folks' power like what Ikeda sensei shown. it's a matter of usage. the conditioning is the same.

from my point of view, what Ikeda sensei shown were a bunch of sentences to demonstrate a language. whereas, the IP/IS folks shown the alphabet, vocabulary and the grammar rules to construct sentences and paragraphs. once you have that, you can write essays in any style (karate, judo, kungfu, aikido, ...etc) you want.

Ernesto Lemke 02-28-2011 10:50 AM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 277843)
from my point of view, what Ikeda sensei shown were a bunch of sentences to demonstrate a language. whereas, the IP/IS folks shown the alphabet, vocabulary and the grammar rules to construct sentences and paragraphs. once you have that, you can write essays in any style (karate, judo, kungfu, aikido, ...etc) you want.

Nicely put Phi.

George S. Ledyard 03-01-2011 11:09 AM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 277843)
i don't think this is the case. the mind-body conditioning to be able to release power (fajin) like the IP/IS folks is the same as be able to manipulate (aiki/huajin) other folks' power like what Ikeda sensei shown. it's a matter of usage. the conditioning is the same.

from my point of view, what Ikeda sensei shown were a bunch of sentences to demonstrate a language. whereas, the IP/IS folks shown the alphabet, vocabulary and the grammar rules to construct sentences and paragraphs. once you have that, you can write essays in any style (karate, judo, kungfu, aikido, ...etc) you want.

You could be right... not sure yet, but maybe. All I know now is that I can do pretty much everything Ikeda Sensei is doing. But it won't feel like what the IP guys are doing. I have felt both and Ikeda Sensei and Saotome Sensei feel different. Perhaps it is simply because they wish it to feel different. But I have not seen either one do the kind of conditioning exercises that the IP guys do so I am assuming that there is relationship...

Keith Larman 03-01-2011 11:39 AM

Re: "move your inside"
 
Well, I'm thinking of the observations by Ellis Amdur about how that conditioning can come about after years of ukemi. How the very mindful practice helps develop that sensitivity and conditioning. So we have people with a zillion hours on the mat who can do amazing things. Maybe it was those zillion (appropriately spent) hours on the mat that *allow* them to do those amazing things today. And feel like "hey, it's nothing I developed, I just could do it one day... How come you can't feel it?" :freaky:

Just thinkin' out loud...


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