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-   -   Silk reeling (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19433)

mathewjgano 02-18-2011 01:26 PM

Silk reeling
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 276949)
Knowing *what* silk-reeling is would be handy for people to know, in principle, rather than just looking at some outward set of movements and saying "this is an example of silk reeling". In other words, people need to ask questions rather than just "Oh, so that's what silk reeling looks like...

So what is silk reeling then? What are the focus points in the exercise? I'm guessing they're different for different levels/layers of understanding; if so, what might be some of those differences (particularly for beginners and intermediate levels) be?
Also, what are the sensations one experiences when practicing "authentic" silk reeling?

Lee Salzman 02-19-2011 01:28 AM

Re: Silk reeling
 
It's totally above my pay-grade, but since no one is biting, and maybe to stoke some discussion, I could point out some traps that I have fell into as a beginner doing things LIKE but not directly labeled silk reeling...

That "magnetic" feeling people initially get and are a bit impressed by when they first try doing it, is actually tensile quality, and it is only a self-correction aid, but not actually a state you want to carry over into real movement in application. It helps you feel where the drive is going in your body during practice, since you can't simply jump over the misdirected drive like you would in unresisted movement. But to do, say, an explosive strike, that resistive quality must absolutely be lost, and only imparted in the initial explosive movement. So, again, the resistive/tensile quality, that is felt as a sort of intuitive "magnetism", it's a training tool, but it is definitely not the goal state for martial application.

The next issue is: don't do it as the practice of one rote movement over and over. Do expand out to any and all movements that feel awkward and uncoordinated and try to make them not feel so. Doing so often highlights areas of your body that are badly connected.

Also, don't initially try to get the full tensile quality going through all the body at once. As a beginner, this is impossible anyway. Choose an area that feels "empty" when you start a session, and see if you can, over the course of the session, expand that tensile quality to the empty area so that it is now actively involved in the drive and not merely going along for the ride. Then gradually incorporate these Frankenparts of your body into a more integrated whole pattern of movement. Eventually the drive should spread to encompass most areas of the body, hopefully... Nothing going along for the ride, every area feeling like it is a critical addition to the drive.

And on the role of parts, some particularly tricky things: treat your neck and your tail(bone) as if they were 5th and 6th limbs (or if you are male, 6th and 7th :D). Do pay attention to where you are driving them just like any other part. You are from monkeys, embrace it. :)

Hope that helps. Those are just stuff I've been working on from my own practice, but otherwise, like I said, above my paygrade. :)

Mike Sigman 02-19-2011 01:00 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 276951)
So what is silk reeling then? What are the focus points in the exercise? I'm guessing they're different for different levels/layers of understanding; if so, what might be some of those differences (particularly for beginners and intermediate levels) be?
Also, what are the sensations one experiences when practicing "authentic" silk reeling?

These are all parts of the same thing:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...2&postcount=31

Someone misunderstanding exactly what is being practiced/conditioned in the breathing (and related) exercises is going to blow the reeling-silk exercises (or misunderstand what is being talked about) and is going to have some wrong idea about "moving from the hara", in addition. I.e., these things are easily misunderstood without a common dialogue established in person. Most of the people I see nowadays who are "using internal strength" are still moving from the shoulders, etc., which means all the talk about 'silk reeling', 'breathing exercises', 'hara', etc., is actually something else and the terminologies are getting crossed. So my recommendation is to stick with absolute kokyu/breathing basics and branch out into techniques and applications only after the basics have been truly ingrained.

As always, "these things are 'easy to learn' but difficult to correct". Then again studying internal strength is very much Aikido because you get to watch your enemies defeat themselves in their rush. :)

2 cents.

Mike Sigman

Diana Frese 02-20-2011 11:38 AM

Re: Silk reeling
 
It's nice Matthew thought some of us would like some descriptions of silk reeling and what is going on with the various parts of the body, and the kokyu etc. (I'm just guessing to show where I am coming from)

Where I am coming from is, yes, the shoulder thing rings a bell. Even before I get back to real training I notice my shoulders creep up in daily life and I know "That ain't right"

Today is sunny and I went out with my jo and started doing one handed strikes, trying to extend the tip forward , breathing, using the hips a little as in boat rowing exercise (funakogi undo). I'm not a jo expert but I take pieces that might help and work on them.

On the original thread, Future of Aikido, there is a helpful image mentioned, pool noodling, is that like hanging a long noodle into a pool as if trying to attract fish? This is a serious question, I like images from nature.

For years, I often thought of having an arm like a noodle or a wet towel when drawing the hips back to throw, so uke won't be able to stall the throw by using the resistance in my arm? Sometimes we tried kokyu nage this way by using actual towels in class.

I think funakogi undo is useful as a training exercise, for hips to get power down and out of the shoulders, but since Matthew is connected to a Shinto Shrine, maybe he would explain the breathing aspect, the ey-ho and ey-sa chant if that is the one he uses, and the purification aspect from Shinto, or does his group do this differently?

Or am I too far off topic. I'm just curious because funakogi undo is important to so many of us.

Back to the silk reeling, I am interested in the imagery. Is the silk light or heavy? I was able to watch one of the videos from the other thread, a non-Chinese teacher in a red Chinese jacket.

Is the feeling I seemed to be getting from the video relevant to the katate tori kokyu nage I described?

Mike Sigman 02-20-2011 12:22 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 277044)
How about just doing exactly what you said for everyone else to do and start explaining silk reeling and quit portraying people as either too dumb to understand or not skilled enough to be at that level.

OK, Mark.... tell me what you understand already about Reeling Silk. You're indicating that the idea that you don't know basics is insulting, so I say, fine.... tell me what you know right up to the edge of reeling-silk so I'll know where to begin. If you're not "too dumb to understand or not skilled enough to be at that level", give us a logical and knowledgeable indication so I'll know where to pick from.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman 02-20-2011 12:33 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Quote:

Diana Frese wrote: (Post 277066)
It's nice Matthew thought some of us would like some descriptions of silk reeling and what is going on with the various parts of the body, and the kokyu etc. (I'm just guessing to show where I am coming from)

Where I am coming from is, yes, the shoulder thing rings a bell. Even before I get back to real training I notice my shoulders creep up in daily life and I know "That ain't right"

Today is sunny and I went out with my jo and started doing one handed strikes, trying to extend the tip forward , breathing, using the hips a little as in boat rowing exercise (funakogi undo). I'm not a jo expert but I take pieces that might help and work on them.

On the original thread, Future of Aikido, there is a helpful image mentioned, pool noodling, is that like hanging a long noodle into a pool as if trying to attract fish? This is a serious question, I like images from nature.

For years, I often thought of having an arm like a noodle or a wet towel when drawing the hips back to throw, so uke won't be able to stall the throw by using the resistance in my arm? Sometimes we tried kokyu nage this way by using actual towels in class.

I think funakogi undo is useful as a training exercise, for hips to get power down and out of the shoulders, but since Matthew is connected to a Shinto Shrine, maybe he would explain the breathing aspect, the ey-ho and ey-sa chant if that is the one he uses, and the purification aspect from Shinto, or does his group do this differently?

Or am I too far off topic. I'm just curious because funakogi undo is important to so many of us.

Back to the silk reeling, I am interested in the imagery. Is the silk light or heavy? I was able to watch one of the videos from the other thread, a non-Chinese teacher in a red Chinese jacket.

Is the feeling I seemed to be getting from the video relevant to the katate tori kokyu nage I described?

Hi Diana:

"Silk Reeling Energy" or just "silk reeling" is a reference to how the connected body is moved from the dantien. A number of Chinese arts have used this term over the centuries (the oldest one I know of was a form of Chang Quan many centuries ago). If you think about a silkworm caterpillar inside of a coccoon, laying down the silk in a spiralling motion, you can get an impression of where the term originates; imagine the arm duplicating such a spiralling as guided by the rest of the body.

Getting rid of shoulder motion is a great difficulty for most people because they still need to have some form of strength to replace the strength of the shoulder. If moving a sword takes strength, for instance, and you attempt to quit using the shoulder, you still have to have a replacement strength. The idea of "relax and use no strength at all" is actually incorrect, obviously. So the replacement strength involves a person "relaxing" in the sense of not using the shoulder, but in using the connected body, driven by the hara, to do the work. For most people, radically altering the way that they move so that the hara actually controls the strength of the connected body is very difficult. Altering the patterned movements that we have used since babyhood is very difficult. Worse yet, imagine having practiced and learned many techniques/movements in a particular martial-art over many years and then trying to re-pattern all of those movements.

Hope that helps.

Mike Sigman

dps 02-20-2011 12:40 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 277069)
OK, Mark.... tell me what you understand already about Reeling Silk. You're indicating that the idea that you don't know basics is insulting, so I say, fine.... tell me what you know right up to the edge of reeling-silk so I'll know where to begin. If you're not "too dumb to understand or not skilled enough to be at that level", give us a logical and knowledgeable indication so I'll know where to pick from.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Of course Mike you realize that Mark is not the only one reading your posts. So just assume that the others don't know the basics and explain to us as you would a beginning student.

A video of yourself would help.

dps

Mike Sigman 02-20-2011 12:57 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote: (Post 277072)
Of course Mike you realize that Mark is not the only one reading your posts. So just assume that the others don't know the basics and explain to us as you would a beginning student.

A video of yourself would help.

Not even a please or a thank you? Just directions on what I should do?

Let's see what Mark knows first.

Mike Sigman

DH 02-20-2011 01:05 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Reeling...really?
A while ago I was fishing with Howard. Watching experts fish is sometimes boring and sometimes entertaining. I asked Howard once
"How come the fish never get wise to the bait and turn their backs on it?"
"Some do" He said. I aint gonna tell you the rest of his reply.
I just went back to focusing on the reel reeling in.

MM 02-20-2011 04:11 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 277069)
OK, Mark.... tell me what you understand already about Reeling Silk. You're indicating that the idea that you don't know basics is insulting, so I say, fine.... tell me what you know right up to the edge of reeling-silk so I'll know where to begin. If you're not "too dumb to understand or not skilled enough to be at that level", give us a logical and knowledgeable indication so I'll know where to pick from.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

First, you brought my post over from another thread. Now who's harassing whom?

Second, let's examine what I said in that other thread:

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 277029)
It seems fairly straight forward that he does. Then why hedge on explaining it? What is silk reeling? After all, "it's perfectly legitimate if someone claims to be doing "silk reeling" or some other buzzword to ask them to explain it." If Mike stays true to form, it'll either be silence or a turn-around asking the poster to explain it.

Notice that I predicted exactly what Mike would do. He stayed very true to form and tried to turn things around. But, notice, which Mike conveniently hides, that I *never* talked about silk reeling. Mike did. And he did so while making everyone else out to be subpar in their understanding of it.

To re-quote Mike, "it's perfectly legitimate if someone claims to be doing "silk reeling" or some other buzzword to ask them to explain it."

As noted below, you still haven't explained the buzzwords you used to describe your knowledge of Ueshiba's breathing practices or Ueshiba's traditional system. Care to elaborate on that? Or just remain true to form and ask me to explain my knowledge first?

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 277029)
Speaking of explaining, how about explaining knowing what Ueshiba's breathing practices were and what Ueshiba's traditional system was in regards to kokyu? Especially considering most of Ueshiba's students had a very hard time understanding what Ueshiba was doing, let alone recreating those skills. Bold below is my addition:


MM 02-20-2011 04:24 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 277075)
Let's see what Mark knows first.

Mike Sigman

Since some people are not following along, let me re-iterate specific points.

Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 276939)
In terms of Aikido and the future of it, it's perfectly legitimate if someone claims to be doing "silk reeling" or some other buzzword to ask them to explain it. To just dumbly nod without anything going through the head but fleecy clouds is to ask for trouble. The idea that anyone can assert anything publicly and that no one is allowed to ask questions is a sure sign of trouble in an art.

Any discussion about a 'future' should allow for critical and specific questioning (not some of these "I demand you explain this" absurdities to crop up occasionally on the forum).

Mike Sigman

Mike, you talked about reeling silk and I took your very own advice to ask you to explain it. You not only balked, but you told everyone to just go back to basic breathing practice. Then, true to form, you attempted to get other people to explain what you, yourself, were talking about.

You know, all your talk about silk reeling and breathing exercises is actually something else. My recommendation to you, Mike, is to stick with explaining absolute breathing basics and then branch out into reeling silk explanations only after you've truly ingrained the basics.

Mike Sigman 02-20-2011 04:55 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 277088)
Since some people are not following along, let me re-iterate specific points.

Give us some starting facts on breathing basics or something, Mark. So far you're leaving the distinct impression that you know nothing and your attempt to skew my words about Aikido instruction falls flat. Try it..... put down some facts.

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman 02-20-2011 04:57 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 277085)
First, you brought my post over from another thread. Now who's harassing whom?

Er..... did you really miss the fact that you were disrupting another thread with another of your O.T. personal attacks? That's why I moved it over here.

Mike Sigman

DH 02-20-2011 05:07 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 277085)
First, you brought my post over from another thread. Now who's harassing whom?

Second, let's examine what I said in that other thread:

Notice that I predicted exactly what Mike would do. He stayed very true to form and tried to turn things around. But, notice, which Mike conveniently hides, that I *never* talked about silk reeling. Mike did. And he did so while making everyone else out to be subpar in their understanding of it.

To re-quote Mike, "it's perfectly legitimate if someone claims to be doing "silk reeling" or some other buzzword to ask them to explain it."

As noted below, you still haven't explained the buzzwords you used to describe your knowledge of Ueshiba's breathing practices or Ueshiba's traditional system. Care to elaborate on that? Or just remain true to form and ask me to explain my knowledge first?

Oh I think it's time to be more specific

Breath work
Lets have Mike factually site a detailed and verified how-to specific from Ueshiba that ANYONE can lay claim to

Silk reeling
Then factually site a detailed and verified model for silk reeling agreed to among a cross section of ICMA master class teachers.

I don't mind that Mike is an unproven amateur teacher on the scene. he has real skills so all the power to him. But this cat and mouse pretending to know more than everyone,else and pretending this is all codified and agreed to by everyone in the Chinese community is simply unsupportable nonsense, mostly patched together from an outsider looking in. The Chinese teachers do no agree any more than the Japanese do. The very idea that the Chinese or anyone else agrees on all aspects of IP is ludicrous..There are arguments at master class level over peng, over the use and understanding of six harmonies, over breath power (type, use, when to begin...if taught at all), Silk reeling, training of Dantian etc..

*Mike has ya'll convinced THEY all agree and he knows the answers. So, where are these pros backing up Mikes "theories as unanimous codified facts of IP?"
They do not exist.

*Where are his students who have power ...from years ago...who have a long standing relationship with him that can vet his own understanding and methods to teach from way back?.

He just openly stated he laughs at Koryu and Daito ryu secrets
Is this a personal attack to challenge his ideas?
Is this bickering to question unsupported claims of high level knowledge he holds but never discusses?
To point that he has not produced long time students?
He openly stated asking was something everyone should do
Okay...since you keep bringing it up Mike, let's
Dan

Mike Sigman 02-20-2011 05:10 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 277088)
You know, all your talk about silk reeling and breathing exercises is actually something else. My recommendation to you, Mike, is to stick with explaining absolute breathing basics and then branch out into reeling silk explanations only after you've truly ingrained the basics.

Mark, you don't have the foggiest idea what reeling-silk is. You guys lurk on material swiped by your Seattle buddy from QiJin and try desperately to make a patchwork quilt of ideas become a "system". If you want to debate facts, debate 'em. Show me up with your massive knowledge. Surely you guys can stoop low enough to debate a topic if you can stoop low enough to get information from QiJin?

Quote:


((from 2007 through the present))

> A nice lady from the Roppokai
> came to train at Aunkai a few weeks back, and she also trains with Dan
> Harden. She then boasted about how Dan gets all the QiJin information
> that is supposedly private, since he has someone on the inside passing
> it on to him. Since she did boast about it pretty publicly, I thought
> you might want to hear it too, if only for confirmation of what you
> suspected in any case.

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman 02-20-2011 05:15 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 277091)
I don't mind that Mike is an unproven amateur teacher on the scene.

Heh. Stop with the insults, Dan. You're the one who's desperately been grabbing information from me for years. A lot of people know it.

If you want to debate something about breathing or silk-reeling or anything fact-based, start it off. Let's see it. See if you can do something besides attack me personally.

Mike Sigman

phitruong 02-20-2011 05:32 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
would you guys mind cease fire? there are civilians getting caught in cross fire!

DH 02-20-2011 05:38 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 277094)
Heh. Stop with the insults, Dan. You're the one who's desperately been grabbing information from me for years. A lot of people know it.

If you want to debate something about breathing or silk-reeling or anything fact-based, start it off. Let's see it. See if you can do something besides attack me personally.

Mike Sigman

Have you debated any one of my on topic points about what you said about silk reeling and Chinese arts with verifiable sources that they all agree to?
Have you answered anything at all about the topic you brought up?
About Ueshiba's breath training as certified and agreed to by anyone- instead of something you leaned elsewhere?
Nope.

I have asked about your student base before to vet you and your methods...even though I give you the benefit of the doubt, and still recommend people go to train with you. I get nowhere. I am left to say "His methods and skills as a teacher are unproved, but he personally has skills."
Seriously, why is asking you questions, not getting any answers, while you continue to state that anyone who talks about these things should be asked.......attacking...you? How does that work?
Can you defend/ explain that logic?
Dan

gregstec 02-20-2011 05:52 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 277076)
Reeling...really?
A while ago I was fishing with Howard. Watching experts fish is sometimes boring and sometimes entertaining. I asked Howard once
"How come the fish never get wise to the bait and turn their backs on it?"
"Some do" He said.
I aint gonna tell you the rest of his reply.
I just went back to focusing on the reel reeling in.

Oh, I don't know about that - I think that fish being fish, they just got to go for the bait - after all, why would we bother to fish - personally, I think its all about the the three Bs (Beer, Babes, and Boats) with the subset of bait and fish :)

Greg

gregstec 02-20-2011 06:00 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 277100)
would you guys mind cease fire? there are civilians getting caught in cross fire!

You gave up your civilian status a long time ago buddy :)

Best to duck in the foxhole and enjoy the show :D



Greg

Mike Sigman 02-20-2011 06:06 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 277102)
while you continue to state that anyone who talks about these things should be asked.......attacking...you?

Never said anything about "anyone" doing anything. You guys. Now.... have you got any facts to debate or should I post something on QiJin you can use as a starter?

Mike Sigman

lbb 02-20-2011 06:08 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 277104)
Best to duck in the foxhole and enjoy the show :D

I suppose that works if you're a voyeur. Personally, I wish they'd just get a room already.

DH 02-20-2011 06:26 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Nope..I'm out.
Dan

Mike Sigman 02-20-2011 06:48 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 277109)
Nope..I'm out.
Dan

Nah, not yet. You've still got this comment that affects my personal reputation and I've legally put out professional tapes, workshops, web-forum, etc., so you need to address this comment of yours:
[quote=Dan Harden}
I don't mind that Mike is an unproven amateur teacher on the scene. [/quote]

Given that you've been gathering information from the QiJin forum, my articles and videos for a proven number of years, it's just not acceptable that you try to run down my reputation at the same time that I've been aware of you 'borrowing' information for years. You can't have it both ways. Your representatives who assist you in teaching are also attempting to smear me. I need to hear some sort of public statement from you since you've gone out of your way to attack my reputation while at the same time copping information.

Mike Sigman

Janet Rosen 02-20-2011 07:10 PM

Re: Silk reeling
 
I am getting so tired of pissing contests.....


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