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-   -   Suburi bokken (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19416)

Pauliina Lievonen 02-14-2011 06:43 AM

Suburi bokken
 
All this talk of boken reminded me - I'd really like to have a heavy suburi one.

I have a suburi jo, it's about 1,4 kg (about 3 pounds?) and just a bit under my length, maybe 160cm? It's great because every slight mistake can be felt and seen immediately.

But my heaviest bokken is 900 grams and it just doesn't give that kind of feedback, I can control it too easily. I've actually done some practice with the jo, but its length isn't practical for some sword movements.

So I'd really like a bokken that's around 1,4-1,5 kg for occasional testing of movement.

Anyone an idea if such a thing exists? Or is it going to have to be a custom job?

Pauliina

Michael Vlug 02-14-2011 08:12 AM

Re: Suburi bokken
 
Hi Pauliine,

I have no idea how much this one weighs, but it's the one I train with. It's a lot heavier than the 'standard' bokken most of the people at our dojo use...

http://www.aikidoplace.com/online-we...ategor y_id=2

Cliff Judge 02-14-2011 08:15 AM

Re: Suburi bokken
 
Quote:

Pauliina Lievonen wrote: (Post 276375)
All this talk of boken reminded me - I'd really like to have a heavy suburi one.

I have a suburi jo, it's about 1,4 kg (about 3 pounds?) and just a bit under my length, maybe 160cm? It's great because every slight mistake can be felt and seen immediately.

But my heaviest bokken is 900 grams and it just doesn't give that kind of feedback, I can control it too easily. I've actually done some practice with the jo, but its length isn't practical for some sword movements.

So I'd really like a bokken that's around 1,4-1,5 kg for occasional testing of movement.

Anyone an idea if such a thing exists? Or is it going to have to be a custom job?

Pauliina

What I have been able to tell is that most suburito that are shaped like swords are 1kg or a little less.

If you are looking for heavier than that, there is a kind of bokken called a furibo - its octogonal in profile and I understand you can get weights that you can put on it for even more weight.

Or you can do like a guy I know who trains Jiki shinkage ryu, he went out and got himself a log and did some rudimentary whittling of one end so he can get his hands around it, and he just swings that around.

Michael Hackett 02-14-2011 12:49 PM

Re: Suburi bokken
 
I have a friend who is a physical monster; does Turkish Get Ups easily with an 85 pound kettlebell. He built a suburito from a length of one inch steel rod. He did something to elongate the tsuka in cross section and then wrapped it with parachute cord. I haven't weighed it, but it seems to weigh four or five pounds. Not my cup of tea, but it certainly met his needs for something heavier than was available.

Pauliina Lievonen 02-14-2011 12:56 PM

Re: Suburi bokken
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 276384)
Or you can do like a guy I know who trains Jiki shinkage ryu, he went out and got himself a log and did some rudimentary whittling of one end so he can get his hands around it, and he just swings that around.

Funny you should say that - I have a tree branch from the back garden that I did just that to. :-D Unfortunately after it dried completely it's also only just under one kg.

Quote:

Michael Vlug wrote: (Post 276383)
I have no idea how much this one weighs, but it's the one I train with. It's a lot heavier than the 'standard' bokken most of the people at our dojo use...

http://www.aikidoplace.com/online-we...ategor y_id=2

That looks like a very nice bokken! But it looks suspiciously like the one I have for partner practice. If you happen to have a chance to weigh yours I'd be interested to hear what it weighs.

Ok so a quick google found this:
http://www.bokkenshop.com/product_p/012-219-15.htm

Just the weight I want. Might be the best option.

I know someone who at least used to make aikido weapons - I think I'll ask them as well before deciding. Thanks for the tips so far, keep them coming!

Pauliina

OwlMatt 03-07-2011 10:13 PM

Re: Suburi bokken
 
Quote:

Michael Hackett wrote: (Post 276443)
I have a friend who is a physical monster; does Turkish Get Ups easily with an 85 pound kettlebell. He built a suburito from a length of one inch steel rod. He did something to elongate the tsuka in cross section and then wrapped it with parachute cord. I haven't weighed it, but it seems to weigh four or five pounds. Not my cup of tea, but it certainly met his needs for something heavier than was available.

Has anyone read the novel Snow Crash? This sounds a lot like the "redneck katana" mentioned therein.

phitruong 03-08-2011 07:19 AM

Re: Suburi bokken
 
hey! it's not the size, ok! although, ladies who told me that tend to giggle a bit.

although, if you can stand there and hold that thing out for 30 minutes at a time, then do suburi reallllllllyyyyy sloooooowwww. it's worth more that way than swinging really heavy stick.

remind me of a story. a number of years back, i went to a seminar taught by Andy Sato sensei (AWA). we were doing jo pair kata. i was working with a partner. at the end of my tsuki, i hold the jo in chudan position in front of me. Sato sensei walked by, looked at me and said,

"Phi San! why are you hold your stick like you holding your dick?"

i thought my partner was going to hurt himself from holding back the laughter. :)

Tony Wagstaffe 03-08-2011 07:27 AM

Re: Suburi bokken
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 278634)
hey! it's not the size, ok! although, ladies who told me that tend to giggle a bit.

although, if you can stand there and hold that thing out for 30 minutes at a time, then do suburi reallllllllyyyyy sloooooowwww. it's worth more that way than swinging really heavy stick.

remind me of a story. a number of years back, i went to a seminar taught by Andy Sato sensei (AWA). we were doing jo pair kata. i was working with a partner. at the end of my tsuki, i hold the jo in chudan position in front of me. Sato sensei walked by, looked at me and said,

"Phi San! why are you hold your stick like you holding your dick?"

i thought my partner was going to hurt himself from holding back the laughter. :)

Wishful thinking?......:D

Petar A 01-08-2012 07:12 AM

Re: Suburi bokken
 
Quote:

Pauliina Lievonen wrote: (Post 276375)
All this talk of boken reminded me - I'd really like to have a heavy suburi one.

I have a suburi jo, it's about 1,4 kg (about 3 pounds?) and just a bit under my length, maybe 160cm? It's great because every slight mistake can be felt and seen immediately.

But my heaviest bokken is 900 grams and it just doesn't give that kind of feedback, I can control it too easily. I've actually done some practice with the jo, but its length isn't practical for some sword movements.

So I'd really like a bokken that's around 1,4-1,5 kg for occasional testing of movement.

Anyone an idea if such a thing exists? Or is it going to have to be a custom job?

Pauliina

Hello Pauliina,

maybe this could help you, so take a look,

http://aikido-buki.blogspot.com/

Kind regards,

Petar

Leonaiki 01-16-2012 07:23 PM

Re: Suburi bokken
 
To answer your question about suburi, it may be useful to get a clear understanding of what can be learned form suburi and what to look for.

I can only talk about so called "Iwama ryu" ( I don't like the name itself but it has become common place so let's use it ... The net is only useful to catch the fish, etc).

Saito sensei's method includes 7 ken suburi, each of them having a precise role. Maybe we could begin with the first one as it is the foundation of pretty much everything else.

Aikiken is not a sword school per se although after some practice you wouldn't feel lost in a ken centered practice. It is all linked to aikido principles, it is a method to teach the body how to move, and refine its perceptions.

I doubt this can be done on a forum but let's try to summarize. (If you speak french - but the article will be soon translated - you can read this as it provides with a clear understanding of what to seek in the 1st suburi).

Let's try to summarize:
- ichi no suburi is a way to discover irimi tenkan principle (too long to explain here but let's say that when you step forward -irimi- , your spine rotates - tenkan- the leg spiraling backward being only a consequence of the rotation and not its engine...)
- it teaches the correct way to rise the sword (not with the shoulder but with the entire body)
- it leads to a more rational use of the body in all aikido techniques
- it creates kokyu power (that ellusive internal power too often described as mysterious... it's a bit like drawing, all is known, the technique is known, go to work ;-)

Technically
- hanmi right, front foot comes in front of the inside of the left foot
- the movement drags the whole right side of the body back, allowing your right hand/arm to pull the sword back and up with a minimum effort of the deltoids muscles
- relatively the left side pushes the sword, creating a leverage with the right side in order to minimize the effort upward and collaborate with the right side.
- ultimately after a few thousands (depending on your commitment) you'll feel that both hands end up pushing, creating and developing the kokyu power inherent to Aikido (a work refined by the 2nd and even more by the 3rd suburi - a pure kokyu breeder...). In that case the link with kokyu ho becomes obvious, these are two closely related movements, similar in essence, leading you to the discovery of the principle behind the forms.

Through the rotation on the spine axis, the whole body is unified to set the ken in motion with a minimum effort of the arms. The consequence is a better use of the body in all tai jutsu techniques (example: fifth suburi - shiho nage but it starts with ikkyo really). As such, weapon training - starting with suburi - helps the practitioner right form the start and not after years of endless air cutting although commited training is required to get the best of it, like everything else.

It is worth trying different speeds and amplitudes of movements with a quite heavy bokken (900 g is fairly enough, the number of painfree suburi being an indicator of the correctness of the exercice) in order to identify the issues revealed by cramps even if these are a bit inevitable, let's be sensible here, no physical practice is completely pain free but it is a good excuse to get a nice massage.

I really discourage the use of any heavier weapon (furibo 3,5 kgs for instance) to avoid back injuries. These tools require a deep uunderstanding of the movement, otherwise you may ruin your back very easily. Of course after a year of suburi, the furibo will deepen the feelings and lead to a stricter self correction.

Hope this can help.
Best


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