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-   -   Reasonable weight for suburito? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19351)

Paul Conway 02-02-2011 02:44 AM

Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
Does anyone know what a reasonable weight is to expect from a suburito? My cheapie is about 1kg, which feels a bit light...

markyboy64 02-02-2011 08:16 AM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
Quote:

Paul Conway wrote: (Post 275402)
Does anyone know what a reasonable weight is to expect from a suburito? My cheapie is about 1kg, which feels a bit light...

Paul..go buy an 8-10 pound sledgehammer and 1 sledge hammer shaft from B&Q.

Training with a sledgehammer will build whole body power,especially hands, wrist,arms.

The hammer shaft by itself,doubles as a sword and jo as you can butt stroke with it aswell as stab or chop.

By design it is superior to a jo or wooden boken,cheap and virtually
indestuctible.

lbb 02-02-2011 01:34 PM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
...and then, after you've been diagnosed with tennis elbow...

I don't think the main reason to use a suburito is to muscle up your arms. If that's your reason, perhaps a sledgehammer will do the job just fine. But the purpose of suburi is to develop correct form. A modest amount of extra weight will help with that goal, a large amount of extra weight will impede it, IMO.

Cliff Judge 02-02-2011 08:08 PM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
They tend to weigh about a kilogram, yeah. There is a thing called a furibo that generally has an octogonal profile that they make weights you can put on.

I know some koryu practitioners who swing ridiculous, Final Fantasy size furibos around, but I really think at some point you're asking for repetetive stress injury. At any rate those are custom made.

I like to practice movement and technique on my own sometimes and it's nice to have the "stretched-out" balance of a standard suburito for that.

Keith Larman 02-02-2011 08:13 PM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
FWIW what I was taught is that the suburito (that always makes me crave Mexican food) shouldn't be overly heavy. Just heavy enough to give you better feedback. So it's not like you're trying to strengthen your muscles so you can swing harder. It is a means of learning to gain fine control over a heavier weapon. Over-extension, over-commitment, trying to muscle a cut, trying to muscle-stop a cut, etc. all result in bouncing, bobbling, etc.

But YMMV. I really don't know. Just another data point for you as it is what I was told.

So form, form, form. With smoothness come speed and power, not the other way around.

Have fun!

danielajames 02-02-2011 08:17 PM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
Quote:

Keith Larman wrote: (Post 275489)
FWIW what I was taught is that the suburito (that always makes me crave Mexican food) shouldn't be overly heavy. Just heavy enough to give you better feedback. So it's not like you're trying to strengthen your muscles so you can swing harder. It is a means of learning to gain fine control over a heavier weapon. Over-extension, over-commitment, trying to muscle a cut, trying to muscle-stop a cut, etc. all result in bouncing, bobbling, etc.

But YMMV. I really don't know. Just another data point for you as it is what I was told.

So form, form, form. With smoothness come speed and power, not the other way around.

Have fun!

To that end a training blade isn't a bad way to go as well, its heavier and sure lets you know when your cut isn't through wobble and sound...costs a bit more though ;(

Keith Larman 02-02-2011 08:26 PM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
Quote:

Daniel James wrote: (Post 275490)
To that end a training blade isn't a bad way to go as well, its heavier and sure lets you know when your cut isn't through wobble and sound...costs a bit more though ;(

Yeah, but I think the idea is to go even heavier for "amplify" mistakes. I personally do not care for swinging overly heavy live blades. They kinda miss the point IMHO.

Mike Sigman 02-02-2011 08:52 PM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 275446)
But the purpose of suburi is to develop correct form. A modest amount of extra weight will help with that goal, a large amount of extra weight will impede it, IMO.

I dunno. I do suburi as one method of training and I have 5 weapons ranging from a lightweight hickory-heart bokuto to a 17-pound ebony one. While some exactitude in replicating a sword-cut is of course desirable, I think for Aikido it's more a form of tanren. I teaches you how to use the body and it trains/conditions the body by using the same body-strengthening principles that are used in internal strength, use of the hara, developing the ki and developing the kokyu.

YMMV

Mike Sigman

Michael Varin 02-02-2011 08:56 PM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote:
...and then, after you've been diagnosed with tennis elbow...

you learn the proper stretches, exercises, and massage techniques that alleviate it. Or you could just start doing that now.

The way I view sledge hammer training is not so much to build arm strength, but rather explosive hip flexion and torso rotation, and of course, your grip will be tested.

That said, Mary makes a good point. All training should be done with an eye towards your specific goals. I don't think sledge hammers should replace bokken and suburito. However, if used intelligently, they can compliment your training (much like bokken training does for katana).

And frankly, swords cut pretty easily.

Keith Larman 02-02-2011 10:16 PM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
Quote:

Michael Varin wrote: (Post 275494)
And frankly, swords cut pretty easily.

Yup. And I can't count the number of times I've had someone show me something to "improve" a sword cut's power (huh?) that really only showed they'd never really cut anything of substance with a real sword. Like everything else there are a lot of details...

I agree with the whole context issue. I use my suburito for tanren. Which I would hazard to guess is the most common reason for it across many styles. Not all, of course, but quite a few emphasize the same things. Early on I was told that doing a lot of cuts in a row tires out the beginners arms and shoulders. As you improve over the years the fatigue works its way down your back and front until it becomes a sort of ab/back workout. A suburito will certainly give you a lot of feedback as to where the power is initiating. Most would say this means you've learned to do it right. Maybe it's more accurate to say you've developed the longer, connected structures better and are better able to control where it is coming from.

But again, gain of salt... Just random observations. I like my suburito. White oak. Bugei Trading had a bunch of them a while back and I couldn't resist taking one home. They haven't been able to get them since. I wanted to buy a couple for friends. Great tool for training. Do it every morning.

Cliff Judge 02-03-2011 07:53 AM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
A powerful cut follows a clean, straight arc. The integrity of the path of the blade, and possibly the speed as well, are more important than the amount of pressure applied to the blade once it meets resistance.

I don't know if its right to say you should use "no" arms when swinging a sword or if its just a certain quality of arm muscle power a good swordsman has, but certainly the goal of suburi is to learn to direct the sword with your center without your arms getting in the way and causing it to zig zag all over the place.

When you hear about "doing a thousand cuts a day" the point isn't to build muscles or develop strength. The point is for you to do the several thousand bad cuts that you must do before you can start doing good cuts. I'm sure there is an internal power story here.

Mike Sigman 02-03-2011 08:09 AM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
Quote:

Keith Larman wrote: (Post 275503)
Yup. And I can't count the number of times I've had someone show me something to "improve" a sword cut's power (huh?) that really only showed they'd never really cut anything of substance with a real sword. Like everything else there are a lot of details...

Long ago I gave up practicing things like tonfa, sai, swords, etc., because I decided that it was pointless from a self-defense point to practice weapons that I never carried (I did do western fencing for a number of years, tho). So I can't honestly say that I've ever done a lot of cuts with a live blade (some, but not enough to count). On the other hand, I do a fair amount of suburi practice because it is convenient and simple to do when I'm watching TV, etc. And I also grew up using an axe for felling timber, firewood cutting, brush clearing, etc. I generally have a good feel for my target and maximizing the amount of force and the momentum of my body in the cut of, say, an axe. How would you generally describe a sword cut as being different, if it is, Keith?

Mike

jonreading 02-03-2011 09:08 AM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
I think there are two types of suburito in this thread. There is the common suburito (slightly heavier than a bokken, maybe resembling a tachi in size and diameter), then there is a heavy training sword. I have seen/used both but for different reasons.

My bokken has been treated with linseed oil for 10+ years and is heavier than normal bokken (more like the weight of those dynawood weapons Bujin sold). These are good for form and correctness and why I continue to use my bokken as opposed to the newer swords that resemble a chopstick. :)

The other training sword is almost too heavy and simple prohibits poor use over a prolonged period - these guys get upwards of 10 lbs. or more. We have several that range from 4" diameter branches from trees to 4"x4" posts, both with handles cut into the wood. I think these are great for building center and swinging a sword with your body.

As for injury, I think you are more suceptible to ligament or muscular injury (such as tendonitis) from incorrectly swing lighter weapons for a prolonged period of time than swinging exceptionally heavy weapons, which you can only do over a long period of time if you swing correctly. Although you probably have greater risk for muscular injury swinging a weapon too heavy for you body to use.

As for how suburi training affects cuts with a real sword... Matching the angle of the cut to the angle the blade assumes in your hand (hasugi) is tough and cannot [truly] be replicated using a bokken or suburito. I tend to think of the two cuts like to old TV knobs; one is for clicking between channel frequencies, one is for fine tuning the picture. If you have the right station, it is much easier to dial in the picture. While the two are not undifferent, there is a precision to cutting that bokken/suburito to does not provide. Much like splitting wood; swinging an axe and splitting wood are similar, but different. Swing an axe does not require precision, splitting wood does. If you have ever seen someone splitting wood and poorly position the cut stroke you know what I am talking about; there are many injuries related to poor axe cuts that deflect from the target and bounce into the leg.

Keith Larman 02-03-2011 09:16 AM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 275526)
A powerful cut follows a clean, straight arc. The integrity of the path of the blade, and possibly the speed as well, are more important than the amount of pressure applied to the blade once it meets resistance.

I would also add that the swordsman need to be "behind" the cut when it comes into contact. That does not mean "pushing" but "there" and in complete control throughout the cut. No slack.

Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 275526)
I don't know if its right to say you should use "no" arms when swinging a sword or if its just a certain quality of arm muscle power a good swordsman has, but certainly the goal of suburi is to learn to direct the sword with your center without your arms getting in the way and causing it to zig zag all over the place.

Agreed. One great comment I heard was that the arms guide and support the sword but you cut from the hara. The unsaid part is how you learn to connect the two...

Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 275526)
When you hear about "doing a thousand cuts a day" the point isn't to build muscles or develop strength. The point is for you to do the several thousand bad cuts that you must do before you can start doing good cuts. I'm sure there is an internal power story here.

I often joke that you need to get all those bad cuts out of the way as a means of calming down myself when I can't seem to cut true. But the goal of the cuts, I think, is to make each one perfect so your body learns how to do it perfectly more often. This is through both the coordination of a very complex movement with the development of a certain type of body that allows it.

Watch someone like Kuroda. He moves like a cat. Toby Threadgill has a similar feel when he moves. It is relaxed but so incredibly fast and without any telegraphing. The movement is fast because it is incredibly smooth. It is so smooth and efficient it becomes crisp.

So speed is a function of perfect form and body integration. And when you develop that integration you find that the sword cuts quiet well all by itself.

Another observation is that there are a number of ways of cutting "correctly" that depend on stylistic choices. We can talk about grip and tenouchi but I've seen styles that really don't grip the same. Which changes how their kamae look. Which change things like how their elbows look during a cut, etc. But... Each style has an internal consistency and you really can't mix and match. So what is correct in one place is incorrect in another. However, both done "correctly" in their own contexts work quite well.

The most common thing I see that is generally wrong among the untrained is simply not cutting. They use the sword more like an impact weapon which will in general make for a poor cut on a target. Or if they're hasuji (blade alignment) is also poor possibly also a blown cut *and* a damaged weapon. Not a good thing.

Another mistake really common in Aikido is the inability to reach their target. They say "I'm cutting him on the top of his head". Then they drop their hands with the sword to literally level with their hips while the tip is pointing up at 45 degrees as they slide forward. At best they might nip the nose of the other guy and, if they survived that long would have just done a tsuki to the stomach. I.e., their description doesn't even come close to matching the reality of what they're doing. They need to be extended somewhat with the monouchi (or tip depending on style or intent) of the sword at the target so they can continue to cut through.

Finally, on the issue of power. I've seen guys who claim to have a "powerful" cut but really all they're doing is swinging really hard. It may be great that they can "load up" and deliver all that power, but... I can hear the play by play "He winds up for the pitch and Oooooooh, he just had his gut opened up at he started his cut... He's out!!!!!" All joking aside is the realization that there is a larger context of why you're learning the weapon. Ideally within a koryu art it was a preserved methodology to keep you alive in a conflict. That was the ultimate goal. Not to have the fastest cut. Or the most power. At least not as a primary goal. The primary goal is to survive while the other guy doesn't. So while there are all sorts of things that may be useful and necessary to learn within any art, the ultimate goal is a balance of a lot of things. Where muscle works better, it is used. Where speed works, it is used. Where IS principles come into play, it is used. But how all those things come together depends on a much larger picture and "mix" of all of them. With the ultimate (idealized) goal being the same.

So it is often tempting from the outside looking in to be critical of some sword style. If you want a lesson in contrast look up Jigen Ryu and compare that with someone like Kuroda. Couldn't be more night and day. And I wouldn't want to be faced off against either. So when I hear people critical of someone like Kuroda because he's not doing this or that the way they think it should be done, okay, right, pick up a sword and stand there facing him and let's see how that works out...

So the point is that when there is a history full of exceptions, it is difficult to come up with rules. Especially so if you're trying to do so outside context of a full-fledged art that expresses all aspects of the how and why of the training.

So to answer Mike's question, all of the above. And none of it. Most who pick up a sword and profess true (overall) proficiency generally don't have it unless they've been involved in a well preserved art. The rest of us have to say "we use swords" and do so within the context of our own goals. But it is a different beast altogether.

So you ask your instructor to help you improve. But recognize that most who do Aikido have never cut with a real sword in any appreciable way (there are many exceptions here). Heck, there are many who train in iai who rarely if ever actually cut.

Complicated issue. But I will say people offering up advice on how to cut (myself included) need to be careful about saying "this is the right way". There's lots of "right ways". Even more wrong. But some of the wrongs are partly in the rights and vice-versa depending on everything else. So it is a muddy mess at best.

I'm blathering now. More Joycian than I wanted. So I'm going to bow out and get some work done. Too much chat, not enough mat lately.

Mike Sigman 02-03-2011 10:53 AM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
Quote:

Jon Reading wrote: (Post 275533)
(Heavier suburitos) These are good for form and correctness and why I continue to use my bokken as opposed to the newer swords that resemble a chopstick. :)

I think this is where internet conversation breaks down. What you just said *sounds* generally right, but from experience I tend to wait and see since the vast majority of people who say they're doing tanren of some sort appear to be mostly arms when I get a chance to see in person. Not to judge or imply anything; only saying that IME this is something to watch out for. Keith made a good comment about taking out the slack... how people take out the slack, etc., is important here.
Quote:

Much like splitting wood; swinging an axe and splitting wood are similar, but different. Swing an axe does not require precision, splitting wood does. If you have ever seen someone splitting wood and poorly position the cut stroke you know what I am talking about; there are many injuries related to poor axe cuts that deflect from the target and bounce into the leg.
I've seen a good axeman cut a number of paper-thin shavings off the end of a green log, but I've never seen a western sword-enthusiast do the same thing. ;)

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Keith Larman 02-03-2011 11:08 AM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
Something I realized I left out when reading about "slack".

I was trained to start slowly with the cuts with the suburito. First and foremost we focus on form. And when when actually swinging it there is the aftermath of the cut as well.

Say you end the cut with the bokken/suburito/shinken parallel to the floor. It shouldn't bobble. It shouldn't "bounce" at the termination of the cut -- it should simply be there. You don't "stop" the cutting motion with muscle "stopping" it. You simply stop in place. This again relates to getting the slack out to allow complete control of the weapon at all times. There should be nothing else you do to stop a cut other than stop cutting. No rebound. And with a heavier weapon it is quite obvious when you don't do it "right" when training in this manner.

Please keep in mind I'm focusing on the suburito training (as tanren) as I was shown for developing a proper body awareness and form for the sword. I'm sure there are other approaches and YMMV.

Quick addition. Over time doing this I've found that stopping a suburito cut "properly" in this context is felt throughout your body. It's not like you're being pulled over or moved by the suburito. It's like you have two lengths of connection, one for one way, the other for the other. Both connect to the center. One day I explained to someone that it is kind of like driving a car with one foot on the gas, the other on the brake. You don't pull your foot off the gas then slam on the break. Since both feet are there one pulls away simultaneously with the other goes forward. So there's not transition per se, just a smooth stop in place.

Paul Conway 02-03-2011 11:24 AM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
I had no idea such a simple question would spark off such a deep and interesting discussion! :)

I've seen a few Kuroda videos, and have never been less than awestruck. He looks incredibly relaxed as brings the move to a finish..there was a tv show here a few years ago wherein he was interviewed and demonstrated some of his non-sword tricks as well as his kenjutsu. Please excuse my ignorance - what's his background? Presumably not all in sword?

Actually, my 'form' problem is this: I find it much easier to control a heavier bokken and cut straight than a lighter one. Which makes me think that I am possibly applying too much muscle...although I am definitely trying not to, and strive to drive the movement from the hips and knees, not physicaly from the arms. I'd welcome perspectives....

Many thanks

Paul

Keith Larman 02-03-2011 12:36 PM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
Well, I'd suggest speaking to your sensei because there are a lot of variations in how cuts are "supposed" to be done. So grain of salt to anything I might tell you since it may conflict with the advice you *should* use -- your sensei's. Anyway, a heavier sword, in my experience, will help people cut straighter because it simply has more mass and hence inertia. Get it started and it will go where it wants. Most bokken are quite light, lighter even than a real sword for that matter. And the balance is different. Which is one reason I have a bag full of bokken of all sorts of different shapes, sizes, woods, etc. Of course I also have a few shinken to play with, so I get a lot of practice. ;) Side benefit of the job. But... to your point. If the lighter ones are problematic that usually points to something in your body you're doing incorrectly. Check your grip. Check your hips to shoulders to arms positioning. Some styles square up others go more oblique. Fix whatever needs to be fixed there. It can also help to focus out far in front of you and think of extending a bit more -- getting the tip out and just letting it drop once it's out there. But if you're slightly skewed, rotated, leaning, whatever that will translate into weirdness in the arc. Watch yourself in a mirror if you can. Then practice a whole lot and slow down. There is absolutely no value in making a lot of bad cuts. Only push up intensity once you get into a groove of good cuts.

I find that due to a series of weird injuries and a recurring myopathy (which causes me to change form which helps me get weird injuries) I am constantly fixing my form. My body doesn't cooperate with me some times so it takes a lot of focus for me to prevent bad habits. So I'm always working with myself, negotiating, trying to figure out how to fix things that creep in.

Keith Larman 02-03-2011 12:38 PM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
And yes, Kuroda is impressive. What is equally as impressive is that he has many students who are damned near as good. Something quite unusual. So he's obviously doing something right on many levels. Some aren't sure what to make of him, but I have nothing but respect for the man. If I had half his speed and grace I'd be a happy guy. Here is a testament to truly spending a lifetime training. And he can and does pass it on.

Paul Conway 02-03-2011 01:10 PM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
Thanks, Keith.

Yes, the balance on my suburito is further forward than either of my other bokken. I shall have to consider how I relate to that.

BTW, my 'problem' is less the angle of cut (although that - as with everything else - can use work), but rather with a lighter blade it 'wobbles' on the way down. I've assumed that this is down to too much power down vs not enough strength/control in wrists.

Keith Larman 02-03-2011 04:42 PM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
Well, those "wobbly" cuts are a constant problem. Basically you need to check in with sensei on your form. Often it has more to do with some alignment issue. Hips to shoulders, grip, or something along those lines.

Then it's just practice. Cause if it was easy, anyone could do it... :)

Keith Larman 02-03-2011 06:44 PM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
Just a few more thoughts as I was working...

I figured I would weigh a few things. Most suburito aren't really all that heavy compared to a shinken. My favorite white oak suburito is about 2 pounds, 2 ounces. While an average of my bokken is about 1 to 1.5 pounds. So the suburito is about twice the weight give or take.

But I got out two katana, both relatively moderate feeling in the hands and they weighed in at 2 lb, 6 ounces and 2 lb, 4 ounces. Both with iron tsuba so some extra weight there. So they're even heavier than the suburito.

I also pulled out a thinner shinken with sukashi tsuba and bo-hi (grooves). 1.9 pounds. Very light and fast in the hands. But still significantly heavier than my bokken. But lighter than the suburito.

The major difference is the point of balance.

Bokken are very light generally and weight is mostly center balanced. The balance on a katana is much more towards the hands. And the balance on the suburito is more out towards the tip.

Hence the suburito "feels" heavy and hard to move. Leverage. It's all about where the mass is located.

The suburito is tiring to use for any length of time while I could work with the shinken nonstop for the most part.

Just fwiw. And of course there are some truly massive suburito. Although at some point I think it just gets silly.

So I guess I'm saying a 1 kg suburito is about right in my experience. But it isn't the weight that is the issue, it is the balance and distribution.

Mike Sigman 02-04-2011 07:05 AM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
Quote:

Keith Larman wrote: (Post 275566)
Just fwiw. And of course there are some truly massive suburito. Although at some point I think it just gets silly.

I tend to agree with this. The problem with a massive suburito (or even just a 'large' one) will be that it's almost impossible to do good tanren with it because you'll constantly shift over into muscular arm and shoulder usage. I tend to do most of my suburi with my 3 lighter sticks and only use the heavy ones occasionally as a check that my internal-strength/suit is improving in manipulating them (i.e., a check to make sure I'm not bs'ing myself about my progress). Of course I'd have to note that someone once told me that Abe Seiseki swung a 40-odd pound suburito with regularity. More than I can comfortably do, for sure.

Mike Sigman

Keith Larman 02-04-2011 12:51 PM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
Paul:

Thought of something else (sorry if it is too much info, but I'm a geek that way).

One thing to check is your usage of your shoulders. If your shoulders are "separated" from your torso things tend to get that "fluttering bird" look when you cut. One thing you can try is to get the sword up into the high guard position. Now make sure your shoulders aren't lifted up. Try to keep them settled into place, connected, not rotated up towards your ears like you're shrugging. Do a cut slowly keeping the shoulders more "controlled" during the cut. Don't let them get out too much, but of course there is some movement. So chudo -- middle path.

You can also add to this a feeling when in high guard that both gravity is pulling your arms down (weight underside if you will) to make sure you don't flare your elbows too much. Then also feel like you're already cutting forward although you're not. This is sort of difficult to describe but I'll sometimes get a student into high guard then stand to the side holding the tsuka myself and putting a little pressure backwards telling them to hold the blade still. So I"m trying to engage a forward feeling. Then I remove my hand and let them cut. The idea is for there not to be a separation. No chambering. Just cut by letting your arms rotate as you reach forward keeping the shoulders in.

Now having said all that I wouldn't be remotely surprised to have someone post "all that is absolutely wrong in our style". So... $.02. Grain of salt. Etc.

jurasketu 02-04-2011 08:55 PM

Re: Reasonable weight for suburito?
 
Quote:

Mark Ackrill wrote: (Post 275410)
Paul..go buy an 8-10 pound sledgehammer and 1 sledge hammer shaft from B&Q.

Training with a sledgehammer will build whole body power,especially hands, wrist,arms.

The hammer shaft by itself,doubles as a sword and jo as you can butt stroke with it aswell as stab or chop.

By design it is superior to a jo or wooden boken,cheap and virtually
indestuctible.

Um... I'm a bit baffled by this discussion. In my twenties, I regularly used a 8-lb sledgehammer as a carpenter so I have quite a bit experience swinging one around.

How would such an exercise be done? Do you swing it in a sword motion but really slowly? Anything marginally fast would have to end with the hammer hitting the ground.

Amusingly, when actually using a sledgehammer purposely, the only muscle power I use is the raising it up. Then I just let it fall - maybe dropping my weight for an extra bit of momentum...


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