AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   Training (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15)
-   -   Randori training (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19131)

ewolput 12-30-2010 06:22 AM

Randori training
 
Many people are talking about randori, and most of the time it is about a one way traffic : attack and defense. Of course there are many variations. In Tomiki's way it is totally different, both "players" have the chance to use their techniques. This is the case for "toshu randori". In "tanto randori" there is the situation of attack with tanto and the defense by the unarmed person, but in some cases the tanto man also can use some counters.
Most of the players are referring to the basic kata for their techniques. Only using the "kata form" will result in most of the cases in a not effective technique. We must adapt our kata into a working instrument for randori.
How to adapt our techniques was the topic of a recent seminar in Belgium. You can see an impression at youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toZFHDA_SJQ
and for the result of randori training
http://www.youtube.com/user/mailllll...29/XNuoHpEDqlU

This randori method is of course a "sports" way of aikido, and from the point of view for a actual fight, it has many mistakes.
But at the end it is great fun and most of the people are always enjoying the "play" of randori.

Eddy Wolput
www.shobukai.be

Ryan Seznee 12-30-2010 05:41 PM

Re: Randori training
 
Quote:

Eddy Wolput wrote: (Post 271318)
Many people are talking about randori, and most of the time it is about a one way traffic : attack and defense. Of course there are many variations. In Tomiki's way it is totally different, both "players" have the chance to use their techniques. This is the case for "toshu randori". In "tanto randori" there is the situation of attack with tanto and the defense by the unarmed person, but in some cases the tanto man also can use some counters.
Most of the players are referring to the basic kata for their techniques. Only using the "kata form" will result in most of the cases in a not effective technique. We must adapt our kata into a working instrument for randori.
How to adapt our techniques was the topic of a recent seminar in Belgium. You can see an impression at youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toZFHDA_SJQ
and for the result of randori training
http://www.youtube.com/user/mailllll...29/XNuoHpEDqlU

This randori method is of course a "sports" way of aikido, and from the point of view for a actual fight, it has many mistakes.
But at the end it is great fun and most of the people are always enjoying the "play" of randori.

Eddy Wolput
www.shobukai.be

Why do the "players" ignore the padded knife after the first thrust? Is this good by your standards?

RED 12-30-2010 05:42 PM

Re: Randori training
 
Quote:

Eddy Wolput wrote: (Post 271318)
Many people are talking about randori, and most of the time it is about a one way traffic : attack and defense. Of course there are many variations. In Tomiki's way it is totally different, both "players" have the chance to use their techniques. This is the case for "toshu randori". In "tanto randori" there is the situation of attack with tanto and the defense by the unarmed person, but in some cases the tanto man also can use some counters.
Most of the players are referring to the basic kata for their techniques. Only using the "kata form" will result in most of the cases in a not effective technique. We must adapt our kata into a working instrument for randori.
How to adapt our techniques was the topic of a recent seminar in Belgium. You can see an impression at youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toZFHDA_SJQ
and for the result of randori training
http://www.youtube.com/user/mailllll...29/XNuoHpEDqlU

This randori method is of course a "sports" way of aikido, and from the point of view for a actual fight, it has many mistakes.
But at the end it is great fun and most of the people are always enjoying the "play" of randori.

Eddy Wolput
www.shobukai.be

Not exactly true. I'm Aikikai, but we are never taught it as a one way street. The relationship between uke and nage is always a battle for the center. I was once told by a Sensei that nage has to demand his position as nage, else he become uke. So to speak, it isn't just Tomiki style that teaches the interchangeable concept between uke and nage. It is a fundamental fact in Aikido.
One thing I always had issue with however: why do they pad the tanto? I always figured a few bruised ribs or a busted lip helps teach you how not to get hit. I mean, no one pads a real knife. You might get killed some day if you train your mind to not respect a blade. But I understand your statement that it is "sport" Aikido. Thus isn't exactly meant to be 100% reflective of an actual situation.
Just saying.

Thanks for sharing the clips!
Happy new year!

L. Camejo 12-31-2010 07:07 PM

Re: Randori training
 
Good points Maggie and Ryan.

Quote:

I always figured a few bruised ribs or a busted lip helps teach you how not to get hit. I mean, no one pads a real knife. You might get killed some day if you train your mind to not respect a blade.
This is how we tend to train (in my Tomiki dojo). Unless we are doing specific competition training all knife work is done using a wooden replica of a real knife (painted silver and shaped accordingly). I have found that this helps the student to keep the respect for the tanto as a potential weapon for non-sport situations. It also encourages the use of Aiki principles in a way that will maximize safety if one is faced with a knife or similar situation.

Of course there are a lot of things that are tactically wrong (from a self defence or combat perspective) when we look at sport-style tanto randori but the key I guess is to remember that it is just that - sport. The primary job of the knife is to enforce correct ma ai and prevent the encounter from becoming a Judo match. The tanto forces both participants to maintain a certain ma ai that increases the possibility of executing Aikido waza under those conditions (and simultaneously minimizing the potential for close range throws, reaps and ne waza).

Regarding the "Aikikai approach" to randori, it depends on the instructor as in most cases. I have never experienced that form of randori in my Aikikai practice (or Yoshinkan for that matter), but I also know that depending on the instructor, the possibility of that kind of training is definitely there and is often done by Yudansha with a similar desire to train that way.

Sometimes the Aikikai approach may even be more comprehensive as it allows one to deal with more attacks than just a tsuki. This is critical for developing the proper reflex responses for non-sport applications of Aikido waza. I have adopted this training method as it is also part of Shodokan Aikido but not often used by those who focus primarily on shiai.

Just my 5 cents.

LC

ewolput 01-01-2011 11:30 AM

Re: Randori training
 
According to Tomiki sensei, aikido is a martial art with an "educational" purpose. It is a way of self discipline and avoiding conflicts. Such a training system needs a lot of safety rules, because we don't like unwanted injuries. In case of randori there are some rules to avoid injuries, using a safe "tanto" is one of those rules. In modern kendo, people are using shinai for their freeplay, and shinai has to follow some rules to gain points in a match. This will have an influence on the way of strategy. The same is in tanto randori, the rules will have an influence on the strategy. Besides tanto randori there is also toshu randori, unarmed randori. In this case we can use atemi and or locking or controlling techniques, but we have to avoid also injuries, atemi waza and kansetsu waza are used in a non-destructive manner.
To create good randori we are following a certain method to create an opportunity to apply a technique. The skill in randori is to avoid or neutralize the "tsukuri" of the opponent. This way is common knowledge in Tomiki aikido circles.
In real life we have to adopt a different way, and that's why we study kata. These kata are based upon old jujutsu or aikijutsu. But the ideas of Tomiki sensei are integrated in these kata. The purpose of atemi waza for example is not inflicting pain or damage, but it is a method to throw someone down, or to create an opening for using kansetsu waza. Kansetsu waza has also safety rules, and the goal is not to damage people, but its purpose is to control the violence of the attacker.

It was Tomiki sensei who said, randori is painting the eye of the dragon to bring him alive.
Testing our skill, we can do in 2 situations : real life situation on the street or battlefield....or on the playground of shiai with a lot of safety rules to avoid damage.
Make your choice :D

And a happy new year - gelukkig nieuwjaar (dutch or flemish)

mathewjgano 01-01-2011 12:24 PM

Re: Randori training
 
Aren't those tanto used in shiai not "padded" but just padding? ...With the intent being to allow for a replicated stab to the hilt of the tanto (which is the way to score a point?)? I remember training randori with the Himeji Shodokan club and often looking down to see the thumb and forefinger pressed against me, the "blade" bent at 90 degrees.
One of the things I really liked about the randori approach of Tomiki (as I understood it to be, at least) was the graduated intensity. I was able to practice with two nidans at the time who showed me different contexts to compare my "abilities" with. In the context where I wasn't given much if any quarter, I executed 0 techniques and was stabbed more times than I can count. It was invaluable, and the idea of a blade being involved added a nice poignancy to the lesson!
I agree with the idea that it's a good teaching tool when nage gets hit. It doesn't have to be hard, but A) it shows that uke is actually trying to get you, and B) it shows nage how behind in the movement they were. I've never been hit hard, but a bop to the face has always sped me up a bit!

Tony Wagstaffe 01-01-2011 01:17 PM

Re: Randori training
 
Quote:

Eddy Wolput wrote: (Post 271504)
According to Tomiki sensei, aikido is a martial art with an "educational" purpose. It is a way of self discipline and avoiding conflicts. Such a training system needs a lot of safety rules, because we don't like unwanted injuries. In case of randori there are some rules to avoid injuries, using a safe "tanto" is one of those rules. In modern kendo, people are using shinai for their freeplay, and shinai has to follow some rules to gain points in a match. This will have an influence on the way of strategy. The same is in tanto randori, the rules will have an influence on the strategy. Besides tanto randori there is also toshu randori, unarmed randori. In this case we can use atemi and or locking or controlling techniques, but we have to avoid also injuries, atemi waza and kansetsu waza are used in a non-destructive manner.
To create good randori we are following a certain method to create an opportunity to apply a technique. The skill in randori is to avoid or neutralize the "tsukuri" of the opponent. This way is common knowledge in Tomiki aikido circles.
In real life we have to adopt a different way, and that's why we study kata. These kata are based upon old jujutsu or aikijutsu. But the ideas of Tomiki sensei are integrated in these kata. The purpose of atemi waza for example is not inflicting pain or damage, but it is a method to throw someone down, or to create an opening for using kansetsu waza. Kansetsu waza has also safety rules, and the goal is not to damage people, but its purpose is to control the violence of the attacker.

It was Tomiki sensei who said, randori is painting the eye of the dragon to bring him alive.
Testing our skill, we can do in 2 situations : real life situation on the street or battlefield....or on the playground of shiai with a lot of safety rules to avoid damage.
Make your choice :D

And a happy new year - gelukkig nieuwjaar (dutch or flemish)

That is very well put Eddy......... Love your eloquence and Ideals. I just lack the eloquence.... Thank :) you

Tony Wagstaffe 01-01-2011 01:21 PM

Re: Randori training
 
Quote:

Larry Camejo wrote: (Post 271468)
Good points Maggie and Ryan.

This is how we tend to train (in my Tomiki dojo). Unless we are doing specific competition training all knife work is done using a wooden replica of a real knife (painted silver and shaped accordingly). I have found that this helps the student to keep the respect for the tanto as a potential weapon for non-sport situations. It also encourages the use of Aiki principles in a way that will maximize safety if one is faced with a knife or similar situation.

Of course there are a lot of things that are tactically wrong (from a self defence or combat perspective) when we look at sport-style tanto randori but the key I guess is to remember that it is just that - sport. The primary job of the knife is to enforce correct ma ai and prevent the encounter from becoming a Judo match. The tanto forces both participants to maintain a certain ma ai that increases the possibility of executing Aikido waza under those conditions (and simultaneously minimizing the potential for close range throws, reaps and ne waza).

Regarding the "Aikikai approach" to randori, it depends on the instructor as in most cases. I have never experienced that form of randori in my Aikikai practice (or Yoshinkan for that matter), but I also know that depending on the instructor, the possibility of that kind of training is definitely there and is often done by Yudansha with a similar desire to train that way.

Sometimes the Aikikai approach may even be more comprehensive as it allows one to deal with more attacks than just a tsuki. This is critical for developing the proper reflex responses for non-sport applications of Aikido waza. I have adopted this training method as it is also part of Shodokan Aikido but not often used by those who focus primarily on shiai.

Just my 5 cents.

LC

We use exactly the same methods Larry, the wooden tanto makes people do the correct avoidance and encourages better catching skills:) ;)

Ryan Seznee 01-02-2011 03:48 PM

Re: Randori training
 
Quote:

Eddy Wolput wrote: (Post 271504)
According to Tomiki sensei, aikido is a martial art with an "educational" purpose. It is a way of self discipline and avoiding conflicts. Such a training system needs a lot of safety rules, because we don't like unwanted injuries. In case of randori there are some rules to avoid injuries, using a safe "tanto" is one of those rules. In modern kendo, people are using shinai for their freeplay, and shinai has to follow some rules to gain points in a match. This will have an influence on the way of strategy. The same is in tanto randori, the rules will have an influence on the strategy. Besides tanto randori there is also toshu randori, unarmed randori. In this case we can use atemi and or locking or controlling techniques, but we have to avoid also injuries, atemi waza and kansetsu waza are used in a non-destructive manner.
To create good randori we are following a certain method to create an opportunity to apply a technique. The skill in randori is to avoid or neutralize the "tsukuri" of the opponent. This way is common knowledge in Tomiki aikido circles.
In real life we have to adopt a different way, and that's why we study kata. These kata are based upon old jujutsu or aikijutsu. But the ideas of Tomiki sensei are integrated in these kata. The purpose of atemi waza for example is not inflicting pain or damage, but it is a method to throw someone down, or to create an opening for using kansetsu waza. Kansetsu waza has also safety rules, and the goal is not to damage people, but its purpose is to control the violence of the attacker.

It was Tomiki sensei who said, randori is painting the eye of the dragon to bring him alive.
Testing our skill, we can do in 2 situations : real life situation on the street or battlefield....or on the playground of shiai with a lot of safety rules to avoid damage.
Make your choice :D

And a happy new year - gelukkig nieuwjaar (dutch or flemish)

If the rules are made purely to decrease injury, why have a tonto to begin with? Why not just use your hand? Uke gave away a chance to stab, cut, and hit the nage once he grappled his gi with his knife. I can only assume that there is no score if contact is made after this, but why is this encouraged?

Tony Wagstaffe 01-02-2011 04:07 PM

Re: Randori training
 
Quote:
If the rules are made purely to decrease injury, why have a tonto to begin with? Why not just use your hand? Uke gave away a chance to stab, cut, and hit the nage once he grappled his gi with his knife. I can only assume that there is no score if contact is made after this, but why is this encouraged?

Go and find out and see if you can make your aikido work against fast committed strikes..... I think you will find it an eye opener..... reality without blood being spilt :hypno:

mickeygelum 01-02-2011 07:08 PM

Re: Randori training
 
Quote:

If the rules are made purely to decrease injury, why have a tonto to begin with? Why not just use your hand? Uke gave away a chance to stab, cut, and hit the nage once he grappled his gi with his knife. I can only assume that there is no score if contact is made after this, but why is this encouraged?
That is the separation of Toshu and Tanto randori...as Wolput Sensei explained.

In addition, in Tanto Randori, the roles of uke and nage are defined, and instantly reverse in certain situations.

Toshu Randori provides a much more assertive shiai.

Ryan Seznee 01-02-2011 09:41 PM

Re: Randori training
 
Quote:

Michael Gelum wrote: (Post 271610)
That is the separation of Toshu and Tanto randori...as Wolput Sensei explained.

In addition, in Tanto Randori, the roles of uke and nage are defined, and instantly reverse in certain situations.

Toshu Randori provides a much more assertive shiai.

I see, but what I am really trying to wrap my head around is why the tanto is ignored after the first strike. When my school does tonto randori, the tonto can uke can attack again if the first one fails. The uke is at a disadvantage if the have to keep a hold of a knife but not use it because they can't use their other hand (I am assuming that uke can throw nage in this situation to get a point...)

Why keep the form of knife fighting for the first strike and then switch to unarmed tactics without a definite disarm as apposed to keep treating the attacker like they are armed or constantly treating the uke as they are unarmed, I guess would be my question.

Tony Wagstaffe 01-03-2011 02:50 AM

Re: Randori training
 
I don't profess to know the "rules" for tanto randori as it is practised at present, but I remember it as we respected the tanto as a real knife, which should be avoided at all costs!!.....
If the opponent scores a tsuki ari, you were in fact "stabbed" and your opponent has scored a tanto tsuki ari ippon, a "kill" if you like.....
The way we practised was to make correct sugiashi and attempt to catch the tanto hand, which is very difficult, but can be done with lots of practice. Or attempt a shomen ate, gyaku, gedan , ushiro ate attack, much the same way as seen now....
My favourite wrist waza were tenkai kote hineri, tenkai kote gaeshi (shihonage), udegarame, wakigatamae.....
We were made to break from the wrestling which seems to be more common today. That was practised more as randori kyogi and shiai, now termed toshu randori....
Does that help? :)

ewolput 01-03-2011 03:41 AM

Re: Randori training
 
article 6 Judging tanto tsuki (from the rules book 2008)
Tanto tsuki ari apply the concepts of the stab and straight cut from kendo and the principle of kikentai no itchi (unity of mind, sword and body). They are an extension of tegatana dosa (sword hand movements taken from Tomiki's judo taiso around 1950)
Valid areas : front sides and back of the chest, arms when they arein contact with the chest.
Upright torso and stable hips at the instant the tsuki finishes. Tsuki are perpendicular to toshu's bodu (unarmed person)
Tsuki start by stepping forward from issoku itto distance (one step distance).

This is a sports form of aikido randori, it teaches us good reflexes and correct judgment of distance. The purpose of randori is to find out if our techniques and movements are in the area of "skill". If you enter shiai or randori training you will find out very soon if you have the skill to defend yourself against a very simple attack and also against someone who is not cooperative.

For Tomiki, budo is the training of kokoro (here refering as mental), this kokoro has to remain immovable even in a decisive situation. In modern society the competiton area is the only place where we can practise our "kokoro" or immovable mind without the chance to become severe injured or slaughtered to death :D
After all aikido is the way of harmony and not the way of injury or death.

Only after entering the field of shiai, you can understand what is happening and how difficult it is to have an immovable mind. The fear of losing is always around the corner and makes the body frozen which results in "non"flexible techniques and hitting the opponent with the purpose to damage him.
This you cannot learn with "kata" practice alone.

L. Camejo 01-03-2011 09:26 AM

Re: Randori training
 
Quote:

Ryan Szesny wrote: (Post 271618)
I see, but what I am really trying to wrap my head around is why the tanto is ignored after the first strike.

Hi Ryan,
You have some very good questions that I think are important for those who have the power to adapt their training to deal with more than just sport applications.

In shiai when one is struck with the tanto it has to be done in a particular manner. Eddy identified the requirements for a "correct" tanto strike in shiai above. The concept of ki ken tai no itchi is critical in this regard as the tanto thrust must be done with a step from the correct distance with the thrusting arm parallel to the floor and will not count as a strike (under competition rules) if one simply stabs from zero range after closing on the other player. In this light the thrust is more along the lines of European fencing than tanto jutsu per se.

Does this make sense from a modern knife fighting or self defence perspective - absolutely not imho. When one gets stabbed in competition it is more of a penalty against Toshu (the unarmed player) for non-existent tai sabaki instead of a reward to Tanto (the armed player) for having stabbed the other person. In the sense of Aikido fundamentals it makes sense that if one can't avoid being hit then the possibility of executing any technique becomes practically impossible.

Quote:

Ryan Szesny wrote: (Post 271618)
Why keep the form of knife fighting for the first strike and then switch to unarmed tactics without a definite disarm as apposed to keep treating the attacker like they are armed or constantly treating the uke as they are unarmed, I guess would be my question.

As indicated by others, it should not be common practice to disregard the importance or existence of the tanto. But it is important to note that although there is a tanto in the match, there is not much of actual knife fighting tactics or techniques being used. As I said earlier, the primary role of the tanto is to enforce distance to minimize the possibility of an Aikido match turning into a Judo and grappling match. Tomiki was a high level Judoka and many of the early members of the Waseda Aikido Club (his first dojo where he developed the shiai system) were judoka. As a result the problem of matches becoming close range Judo bouts was a real issue. The tanto was introduced to prevent this problem.

In shiai when distance is closed after the initial strike it is Tanto's duty to place the knife on the chest or shoulder of Toshu if he is attempting a technique. This is to remind Toshu that he can be stabbed at this range and has to deal with the knife before technique can be attempted. Usually in shiai if Toshu applies an effective technique but had ignored the knife being pressed against his chest, the technique is disallowed. I believe the rules state that if Toshu ignores the knife pressed to his chest for more than 5 seconds he gets a warning and the 2 players are broken up and the bout is restarted from distance.

I think this is a good thread because many are unable to understand the difference between tanto shiai and Aikido self defence applications against tanto. It is something to be considered because meeting a trained knife fighter (especially of the FMA ilk) is nothing like Tanto Shiai and requires a pretty specific skill set imho.

Best
LC

Tony Wagstaffe 01-03-2011 11:09 AM

Re: Randori training
 
Quote
"I think this is a good thread because many are unable to understand the difference between tanto shiai and Aikido self defence applications against tanto. It is something to be considered because meeting a trained knife fighter (especially of the FMA ilk) is nothing like Tanto Shiai and requires a pretty specific skill set imho."

You would be betting your life on that one!! Short of using a dustbin lid as a shield!! Wheely bins are a pain.....Or bloody great big steps in the other direction....!!! :D
I've seen these people in action during my navy time.... Manilla comes to mind!! Only a bloody fool would consider it!!:straightf :crazy:

L. Camejo 01-03-2011 04:22 PM

Re: Randori training
 
Quote:

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: (Post 271670)
You would be betting your life on that one!! Short of using a dustbin lid as a shield!! Wheely bins are a pain.....Or bloody great big steps in the other direction....!!! :D
I've seen these people in action during my navy time.... Manilla comes to mind!! Only a bloody fool would consider it!!:straightf :crazy:

Quite correct. :)

LC

CitoMaramba 01-04-2011 03:50 AM

Re: Randori training
 
I'm glad we Filipinos are feared for our awesome knife fighting skills :D

Tony Wagstaffe 01-04-2011 08:13 AM

Re: Randori training
 
Quote:

Inocencio Maramba wrote: (Post 271714)
I'm glad we Filipinos are feared for our awesome knife fighting skills :D

Of course, who wouldn't be?
What happens when they take the knives away....?;) :D

Hellis 01-04-2011 08:33 AM

Re: Randori training
 
Quote:

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: (Post 271719)
Of course, who wouldn't be?
What happens when they take the knives away....?;) :D

Thats when you give the dustbin lids back :)

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

ewolput 01-04-2011 08:36 AM

Re: Randori training
 
Quote:

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: (Post 271719)
Of course, who wouldn't be?
What happens when they take the knives away....?;) :D

They get "shido" according the rulesbook:D

mickeygelum 01-04-2011 08:37 AM

Re: Randori training
 
Quote:

They get "shido" according the rulesbook
AH-hahahahahahahahahahhhaaa....:D

Tony Wagstaffe 01-04-2011 08:57 AM

Re: Randori training
 
Quote:

Henry Ellis wrote: (Post 271722)
Thats when you give the dustbin lids back :)

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Ha ha, That's providing there's one to hand when the knives appear...... if you see it!!
What I witnessed was gang warfare and there was no sign of knives until engagement......:eek: :crazy:
Believe it when I say we got out of there pretty fast before they turned on us matelots!! Being where we shouldn't be....:rolleyes:

Tony Wagstaffe 01-04-2011 09:00 AM

Re: Randori training
 
Quote:

Michael Gelum wrote: (Post 271724)
AH-hahahahahahahahahahhhaaa....:D

F***k the "shido" and sod the F******g rule book!!:crazy: :hypno: ;) :D

mickeygelum 01-04-2011 09:22 AM

Re: Randori training
 
Quote:

F***k the "shido" and sod the F******g rule book
Such language! You can't say "SOD" here, get a civil tongue in your head!:rolleyes: :D


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:46 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.